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On March 12 2012 06:20 Fingulfin wrote:
Terran nerfs across the last few patches drive the ignorant masses to feel that terran is at a disadvantage right now*, so people are switching to other races.
*Talking about levels (<Masters) where these nerfs will have little, if any, real effect on the outcome of games
Of course these small balance tweaks have little effect on even masters and below. However, you can't discount the effect the have psychologically when those Terrans are having troubles in those leagues. If you felt that it was unfairly hard is to beat X race at your level, and the only response you get from Blizzard are nerfs to your race, I doubt you would play for long. Regardless of balance at the top levels, your problems are being ignored.
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On March 12 2012 06:23 OxyFuel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 06:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
stick 900,000 marbles in a jar...
290,000 marbles with a "T" on them
290,000 marbles with a "P" on them
290,000 marbles with a "Z" on them
and 30,000 with an "R" on them.
shake up the jar....reach in and pull out 15 marbles.
on many many occasions you'll get 2 or less of either ther T, P or Z. This doesn't make sense and doesn't prove anything. Yes you can't say "Where have all the Terrans gone" with just 15 games. Each race is definitly does not have "290,000" players, or whatever number you want to use.
the OP picked 15 games as his sample that is meaningless.
replace 290,000 with "X" , "Y" and "^Z^" being the #s of each race.
as long as the #s are more than 2 orders of magnitude bigger than 15 the experiment works just fine.
there are more than 1,500 Ts Zs and Ps playing SC2.
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On March 12 2012 05:52 MaV_gGSC wrote:
Sorry for the off topic but... terran in black looks AMAZING
Yeah, may be Blizz should let players decide the color instead of just Blue and Red.
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There is no need for delicate balance at lower levels,
games are near completely random and can varry from getting completely crushed to amoving to victory with basicly the same starting situation.
As long as the game is not extremely unbalanced there is no problem, definatly not at lower leagues.
Even at top level games are highly random btw, something most pros will agree with.
Balance would be a problem and effecting race distribution if 1 marine could kill 3 zealots or something, but this is not the case,
the game is not unbalanced to such an extend that it influences race distribution.
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On March 12 2012 06:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 06:23 OxyFuel wrote:On March 12 2012 06:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
stick 900,000 marbles in a jar...
290,000 marbles with a "T" on them
290,000 marbles with a "P" on them
290,000 marbles with a "Z" on them
and 30,000 with an "R" on them.
shake up the jar....reach in and pull out 15 marbles.
on many many occasions you'll get 2 or less of either ther T, P or Z. This doesn't make sense and doesn't prove anything. Yes you can't say "Where have all the Terrans gone" with just 15 games. Each race is definitly does not have "290,000" players, or whatever number you want to use. the OP picked 15 games as his sample that is meaningless. replace 290,000 with "X" , "Y" and "^Z^" being the #s of each race. as long as the #s are more than 2 orders of magnitude bigger than 15 the experiment works just fine. there are more than 1,500 Ts Zs and Ps playing SC2.
You're pretty ignorant to cherry-pick the first post. Yes, it makes absolutely no sense on it's own, but have a look further, every listed matchups, be it 50, 100, 150 sample size, sets the trend for T being far lower then the expected value. If that's not enough, check distribution on sc2 ranks.
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I'd be interesting to see how many games Terran plays, because I bet Terran plays less just because of the way the race works compared to the other mu's. This also makes the problem appear worse and worse.
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On March 12 2012 06:26 Rassy wrote:
The reason that fewer people play terran has little to do with the fact that terran is more difficult to play but more so with the fact that terran is simply considerd "not cool"
this due to the way pro players (and noobs following them) have been bitching about terran as a race since day one.
Idra saying you have to excuse yourself for playing terran and what more is all not conributing to making terran popular
People who play in lower leagues dont choose the easiest race,it amazes me that people dont see this.
Even pros dont choose the strongest or easiest race, else everyone would be playing the same race.
I remember morrow switching to zerg from terran when terran was still considerd the strongest race and zerg the weakest
People choose the race they like, the race with wich they can identify themselves and wich is they think is "cool"
Terran just does not have the x factor wich zerg and toss do
this, and the numerous bad comments about you get for playing terran during games on battlenet...is the main reason less people play terran
Its nice to talk about balance but balance is not the cause for everything occuring><
ya terran is getting harder to play (marginally, like annyone below diamond will ever notice the reduced emp radius lol)
No this is not the reason for less people playing terran
Absolute rubbish post. Poor theory crafting and zero substance, only idiotic opinion. As for the "x factor" Terran has had a higher percentage of the top elite players, players like Boxer, Nada and Flash are idols among SC fans.
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I love how every person complaining about sample size selectively ignores the SC2rank statistics as well as the poll statistics and just so happen to have a non-terran icon. Just because Terran was OP a while back and you where angry about it doesn't mean you have to carry a grudge forever. I remember pretty much giving up as soon as I saw T as Z, but now it's pretty much a cakewalk due to Terran lack of late game options. Most Zergs seem to have the same sentiment.
This situation has been apparent for a long time. At professional levels, Terran is great but the skill curve is so extreme to get to that level of play that for all people that don't make a living playing sc2, Terran is not worth it if you care about winning.
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On March 12 2012 06:26 Rassy wrote:
The reason that fewer people play terran has little to do with the fact that terran is more difficult to play but more so with the fact that terran is simply considerd "not cool"
this due to the way pro players (and noobs following them) have been bitching about terran as a race since day one.
Idra saying you have to excuse yourself for playing terran and what more is all not conributing to making terran popular
People who play in lower leagues dont choose the easiest race,it amazes me that people dont see this.
Even pros dont choose the strongest or easiest race, else everyone would be playing the same race.
I remember morrow switching to zerg from terran when terran was still considerd the strongest race and zerg the weakest
People choose the race they like, the race with wich they can identify themselves and wich is they think is "cool"
Terran just does not have the x factor wich zerg and toss do
this, and the numerous bad comments you get for playing terran during games on battlenet...is the main reason less people play terran i think.
Its nice to talk about balance but balance is not the cause for everything occuring><
ya terran is getting harder to play (marginally, like annyone below diamond will ever notice the reduced emp radius lol)
No this is not the reason for less people playing terran
In the words of Mc at IEM
"F*cking TERRANS!"
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There's also the psychological factor of playing "tiers" and the history of SC2. Terrans have dominated at the pro level for quite a while (especially GSL), so 'terran OP' is a well-known phrase thrown around the community. Whether that applies today is debatable due to the introduction of better maps and the removal of godawful shit maps like Delta Quadrant, or Steppes of War, or Jungle Basin, or Kulas Ravine, as well as all the nerfs terran has received and the buffs zerg and protoss have received (relatively, yes terrans have been buffed and the other races nerfed too).
With this in mind, people would definitely want to play the 2nd or 3rd race in ability. I know when I was playing Super Smash Bros Melee/Brawl and Street Fighter 3rd Strike, I chose characters who were kinda high-tier, but usually more mid/low-tier. In SF3, all the scrubs would just pick Chun-Li because her regular attacks are great. Who wants to play the absolute best character/race when you can prove your skill by using an underpowered one? Hence, this is why I think there are more zergs and protosses in the ladder these days. By winning with these races against terran you can "prove" just how much better you are by overcoming these imbalances you perceive.
I know, I'm terran and I have a bias, but I firmly believe that anything that makes one race "easier" does not matter, because the game is asymmetrically balanced, and different things favour different races. At lower levels, it looks like terran players do not have the skills to take advantage of their race, skills which are not required as much by zerg or protoss players. As you go up in skill into the master/gm/pro levels, the skills will favour terran by a lot.
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On March 12 2012 05:15 Instigata wrote:
Funny how people talk about the top Terran users for their arguments but I don't think anyone is arguing that Terran can't hang at the top level. They point to Korea and I agree that at the top level Terran is probably a little stronger balance wise. Strelok made a thread a while ago talking about the lack of Terrans in Europe and now this thread as well. I think it takes more work for a Terran to get to the same level as a Zerg or Protoss unless you're putting in progamer hours.
Another issue is the play style. Under "normal" circumstances Zerg is passive and wants to do SimCity/Farmville in both matches and just sit back and expand. Protoss does the same thing vs Terran but would probably be considered the aggressor in PvZ. Terran in both matches has to be the aggressor. I don't think it's a balance issue, just the way the game plays. Terran can't remax like Zerg and are a bit slower than Protoss as well. Terran are given the tool for harassment for this reason it seems.
Some last remarks, I think it's funny how Blizzard didn't want the game to be balanced by maps like in BW but maps still plays an important role. Also, Blizzard didn't want long games, I think it's funny how standard play is building another base as one of your first buildings. That's just dumb to me. Your first building is another base or spawning pool. Nexus, forge, or 1 gate sentry nexus. 1 rax cc.
If you go one base you're an all-in/cheeser and I wish that mentality change. Instead you should build another base as your first thing and you should let the passive race build harvesters so the announcers can say WOW LOOK AT ALL THOSE WORKERS. HE'S A MONSTER NO ONE CAN KEEP UP WITH HIS MACRO.
watch high level games of Terrans doing 3 CC openings and watch how Ps and Zs all across the board suddenly become the aggressor. Just the average Terran Joe on the ladder has never learnt this playstyle and as long as the way easier "do 2-3 timings and hope you win, if not QQ about how you cant win in the lategame" dominates the ladder, Zergs and Protoss' won't play/learn aggro styles. It just doesn't make sense to attack into someone that is massing units.
Instead of that, from personal experience I'd say marauder/hellion and banshee follow ups to hellion openings (with or without expand) that blindcounter every aggression from a zerg in ZvT are as popular as never before. (at least at masters EU)
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I think terran late game army is just alot worse compared to zerg and protoss, i think i remember in some interview blizz even told that terran have advantige early game and toss, zerg late game. Thats why when two same skill opponents meets with equal late game armies zerg and toss army will always beat terran army, in GSL we rarely see battle on open field with maxed armies with even positioning. Terran players always try to drop harras, get opponent out of position and so on, while toss and zerg try to get head on fight with terran.
I also liked how blizz nerfed ghost as they were just starting to see some playing, to counter late game zerg units.I myself wasnt even winning more than 40% of my games in late game with mass ghost and i saw plenty of games in online cup finals where for example nerchio demolished terrans like Beastyqt with mass bl coruptor infestor agains mass ghost. Blizz reasoning to nerf was, they didnt intend ghost to be massed, but they did intend coruptor bl infestor to counter every composition terran can make? I mean after so long time, they still havent done anything to fix it. Right now for me its beat zerg before 16min mark or die trying.
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On March 12 2012 06:45 MuteZephyr wrote:
I love how every person complaining about sample size selectively ignores the SC2rank statistics as well as the poll statistics and just so happen to have a non-terran icon. Just because Terran was OP a while back and you where angry about it doesn't mean you have to carry a grudge forever. I remember pretty much giving up as soon as I saw T as Z, but now it's pretty much a cakewalk due to Terran lack of late game options. Most Zergs seem to have the same sentiment.
This situation has been apparent for a long time. At professional levels, Terran is great but the skill curve is so extreme to get to that level of play that for all people that don't make a living playing sc2, Terran is not worth it if you care about winning.
you cant use sc2ranks. It shows % of players in each race, not number of games each race has played.
A terran might just play 1 game at the start of the season then quit, he'd be counted in the sc2ranks race distribution, but he wouldnt be producing games with terran in them.
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well nvm, this is going nowhere
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I'd say probably because Terran keep needing better and better micro on their bio, which some people just can't do so they switch to a race where normal kiting micro won't get you raped by colossus, storms, or banelings.
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On March 12 2012 06:51 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 05:15 Instigata wrote:
Funny how people talk about the top Terran users for their arguments but I don't think anyone is arguing that Terran can't hang at the top level. They point to Korea and I agree that at the top level Terran is probably a little stronger balance wise. Strelok made a thread a while ago talking about the lack of Terrans in Europe and now this thread as well. I think it takes more work for a Terran to get to the same level as a Zerg or Protoss unless you're putting in progamer hours.
Another issue is the play style. Under "normal" circumstances Zerg is passive and wants to do SimCity/Farmville in both matches and just sit back and expand. Protoss does the same thing vs Terran but would probably be considered the aggressor in PvZ. Terran in both matches has to be the aggressor. I don't think it's a balance issue, just the way the game plays. Terran can't remax like Zerg and are a bit slower than Protoss as well. Terran are given the tool for harassment for this reason it seems.
Some last remarks, I think it's funny how Blizzard didn't want the game to be balanced by maps like in BW but maps still plays an important role. Also, Blizzard didn't want long games, I think it's funny how standard play is building another base as one of your first buildings. That's just dumb to me. Your first building is another base or spawning pool. Nexus, forge, or 1 gate sentry nexus. 1 rax cc.
If you go one base you're an all-in/cheeser and I wish that mentality change. Instead you should build another base as your first thing and you should let the passive race build harvesters so the announcers can say WOW LOOK AT ALL THOSE WORKERS. HE'S A MONSTER NO ONE CAN KEEP UP WITH HIS MACRO. watch high level games of Terrans doing 3 CC openings and watch how Ps and Zs all across the board suddenly become the aggressor. Just the average Terran Joe on the ladder has never learnt this playstyle and as long as the way easier "do 2-3 timings and hope you win, if not QQ about how you cant win in the lategame" dominates the ladder, Zergs and Protoss' won't play/learn aggro styles. It just doesn't make sense to attack into someone that is massing units. Instead of that, from personal experience I'd say marauder/hellion and banshee follow ups to hellion openings (with or without expand) that blindcounter every aggression from a zerg in ZvT are as popular as never before. (at least at masters EU)
Id consider myself an avg Joe T player at Masters level. Going for these macro 3 CC ish builds is pretty much asking for a 20-30% win rate in TvZ and TvP. This illustrates why alot of T's have switched. The way that T is designed is pretty terrible at the moment for anyone in masters or lower leagues. Being forced to end the game early because you cant win late is pretty terrible game design.
I think Terran is alot of fun to play because of all of the micro opportunities that are available, but when it gets to late your Z or P oppenant has a much much easier time defeating you.
Theres nothing more demotivating in this game then microing like crazy for 15 minutes making each unit far more valuable than its worth... Only to get steamrolled 10 minutes later by Collsi/HT or Infestor/BL.
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Has anyone noticed the polls? Pretty decent sample size: 600-1000 votes. In each of the cases, the least number of people voted playing against Terran as their weakest matchup.
I regulaly beat players a league above me in TvT. Much better win ratio compared vZ and vP.
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I'm really tempted to switch to terran because I love the tvp and tvz matchups from terran's side, but I can't stand tvt. No more terrans around so I might offrace terran on a TW acct or smth.
I'm protoss, weakest matchup by far pvt. Strongest pvp, pretty good at pvz.
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On March 12 2012 07:30 Drowsy wrote:
I'm really tempted to switch to terran because I love the tvp and tvz matchups from terran's side, but I can't stand tvt. No more terrans around so I might offrace terran on a TW acct or smth.
TvT is fun if you have initiative.
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Terran are getting nerfed too much, and some race are getting buffed too much and too early. This is fault of blizzard, though. Game is young and blizzard is patching it too frequently.
I don't wanna start a balance op whine, but for example, they nerfed things like the four gate (that was being figured out..) , make the rax building time higher, and so on. So while the game is still young, it seems that blizzard has a predefinite mindset about what they are trying to achieve (look the ghost nerf for example or the neural parasite , why ruining strategies,/spells unless you have a scenery of how the game should be, already established in your mind?)
Also, terran was the first race being figured out (the most) just because it was the main race being played... it is not that terran are not adaptive, on the other hand I think that terran players are the smartest among the three races, just because they figured out their own race before the others...
And now protoss and zerg are being smart as well, and tactics that time ago seemed OP are now not anymore a serious issue; if blizzard gave more time and more attention to the game, it could have been so better balanced ... 
Edit 2: and seriously ,is it a legend, or are they buffing\nerfing according to the win ratio?
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EPT
