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On April 03 2012 11:46 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 07:57 Big J wrote:On April 03 2012 07:35 Rassy wrote:you can mass banshees. Mass banshee beat annything the protoss can field on the ground. Most protoss still think they can simply mass stalker to counter but they are wrong!, these are your victems. Banshee>stalker and banshee counters robo, but at the same time it also requires a robo to be build wich is a huge waste. The only thing they loose to is protoss air , but once they go air you can start massing the 2 units wich hard counter protoss air, marines and thors!. SO: go barrack factory double starport and start massing, marines in bunkers to defend  Hmm it probably is not so easy lol but i do think mass banshee combined with marines at start is a relativly unexplored area Its basicly 1-1-1 but without the tanks and more banshees In all honesty and though I like banshees in my (mech) TvP compositions: If you overdo it, he can just storm and feedback your banshees into the ground. True, Protoss ground to air is not supersupplyefficient, but you simply can't use banshees like mutas, because they cant semidodge storms like mutas. Theoretically BCs (instead of Marines) would be really good against Toss, but it seems close to impossible to switch into enough of them from current bio strategies Ryung has shown some pretty interesting late game BC switches in TvP that have worked out well, mixing in 2-3 with his bio force. They really force an overreaction from toss to deal with them, and their dps is pretty good once they've had upgrades (and you upgrade air weapons anyway so your vikings can deal with 3/3 colossi).
Well, that sounds OK but it also seems like it relies on a protoss who is not used to it happening, and doesn't know how many stalkers it will take, or whatever.
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On April 03 2012 11:50 vOdToasT wrote:
What I just described is nothing like TvP. In TvP you just want to attack attack attack, any even trade is good for you, since more units is always good for Protoss, and less units is always good for Terran. If you try to play like that vs Zerg you are just going to lose small army after small army to zerglings.
Except chargelot / archon which is really strong vs small amounts of bio. But yes, in general trading terran units for protoss units is good due to the gas restrictions that protoss play under. It's only when Terran run out of minerals that they start collapsing.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 03 2012 12:09 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 11:46 Whitewing wrote:On April 03 2012 07:57 Big J wrote:On April 03 2012 07:35 Rassy wrote:you can mass banshees. Mass banshee beat annything the protoss can field on the ground. Most protoss still think they can simply mass stalker to counter but they are wrong!, these are your victems. Banshee>stalker and banshee counters robo, but at the same time it also requires a robo to be build wich is a huge waste. The only thing they loose to is protoss air , but once they go air you can start massing the 2 units wich hard counter protoss air, marines and thors!. SO: go barrack factory double starport and start massing, marines in bunkers to defend Hmm it probably is not so easy lol but i do think mass banshee combined with marines at start is a relativly unexplored area Its basicly 1-1-1 but without the tanks and more banshees In all honesty and though I like banshees in my (mech) TvP compositions: If you overdo it, he can just storm and feedback your banshees into the ground. True, Protoss ground to air is not supersupplyefficient, but you simply can't use banshees like mutas, because they cant semidodge storms like mutas. Theoretically BCs (instead of Marines) would be really good against Toss, but it seems close to impossible to switch into enough of them from current bio strategies Ryung has shown some pretty interesting late game BC switches in TvP that have worked out well, mixing in 2-3 with his bio force. They really force an overreaction from toss to deal with them, and their dps is pretty good once they've had upgrades (and you upgrade air weapons anyway so your vikings can deal with 3/3 colossi). Well, that sounds OK but it also seems like it relies on a protoss who is not used to it happening, and doesn't know how many stalkers it will take, or whatever.
Not really, it's exactly the same as how Protoss gets only 3-4 colossi. It's just a hard number to deal with. Consider 3 colossi: you can get a medium number of vikings, in which case you don't kill them ultra fast and they do a lot of damage, you can get a small number of vikings in which case they never die, or you can get a lot of vikings which kills them extremely fast but then your ground army is very weak in comparison.
Stalkers aren't very good vs. BC's, they win only by virtue of having a lot of stalkers. When you've got a bunch of marine/marauder, it's freaking AWESOME if you can make the protoss make a lot of extra stalkers: it means fewer zealots or fewer colossi/high templar. You only make a few BC's, it's just a hard number to deal with.
Just EMP your BC's before you fight (you'll definitely have ghost tech) so they can't get hit with feedback for a lot of damage and they do great.
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On April 03 2012 06:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 06:21 canikizu wrote:On April 03 2012 05:39 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2012 05:16 Superneenja wrote:
So basically from this thread is if you play terran and have problems with TvP, just play better? ...but I'm sure we want to have fun too, and its just not the case when playing P or Z. Theres not enough room to recover from a small mistake, and I don't know about other T's but im always stressed out making sure that 2 banelings or storms dont kill like half of my army.
In light of this thread I've started playing again, but ya 5 games in T is still not fun... and i don't think its surprising to see the T population diminishing. I've seen various people just on this thread say they quit or switched races, and I also was very close to switching as well(sadly just to have fun)
I've seen a lot of "whine"(according to many of the toss that don't want to admit the fact that there are some underlying issues) for TvP and ZvP, so obviously T and Z OP? Give me a break.
I still think T has to play at a league higher to beat a P in a lower league(Z to a certain extent as well)...IMO, but to all the toss I guess i'll just play more and play better. Well, from what I have gathered from this thread, there appears some terrans do not have a full understanding of the match up. Case and point is a few pages ago when the topic of picking off observers was brought up. Several terrans players posted that they did not feel it was worth a scan it to snipe an observer. This was meet with the response from all protoss players and TypeNaruto to “kill all observers, all the time”. Personally I found this surprising, since denying information is one of terran’s main strengths and it was strange players would not exploit that. With protoss, this sort of information and their ability to gather it allows them to make decisions on when to expand, how to spend chrono boost and what units to make. That on top of knowing where the terran army is, which is the most important information of all. It seemed weird that some players just assumed that a mule was more important than denying this information. I am not saying everyone who is having issues is bad, but there do appear some points where player goals in the match up seem off. No Terran said a scan is not worth it. People are saying that with observer scouting, you most likely will get all the information before getting killed. Unless you dive observer right on Terran's nose, no mortal eyes can detect and kill observers 10 times out of 10 before they got in the base and scout all the information. You are correct, there is no way to 100% deny informtion for every race. But to get an advantage, you don't need to deny 100% information. Most protoss assume if you expanded that they are going to see some flavor of MMM. It can sometimes take a minute or more for a protoss's replacement to observer to get back where it needs to be. In games that last 15-20 minutes, that a huge amount of time. Anything could have happened at that point, a tech switchs, drops, a fast third base or a two base timing attack. More importantly, protoss players are saying "This is scary. When this happens, it slows me down and I need to worry about more things. I don't feel safe expanding if I don't have an observer in place watching their army. Replacing the observer is important and it makes the game harder when people snipe them". When zerg players said that early zealot/voidray pressure was scary, I did not respond with "Zealots are crap PvZ. Everyone knows that it is impossible to make them good". I responded with "Really? How?"
Can you tell me what terran tech switch is possible in under two minutes? I agree, that drops are more dangerous in that period of time, but the rest of the things is laughable and you are only worried about it because in PvZ it might be a real threat. Taking your third 1 minute behind the terran is OK, you are expecting attacks/drops at that point in time anyhow, so what?
Then again, you ignore me anyhow..
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On April 03 2012 15:43 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 06:57 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2012 06:21 canikizu wrote:On April 03 2012 05:39 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2012 05:16 Superneenja wrote:
So basically from this thread is if you play terran and have problems with TvP, just play better? ...but I'm sure we want to have fun too, and its just not the case when playing P or Z. Theres not enough room to recover from a small mistake, and I don't know about other T's but im always stressed out making sure that 2 banelings or storms dont kill like half of my army.
In light of this thread I've started playing again, but ya 5 games in T is still not fun... and i don't think its surprising to see the T population diminishing. I've seen various people just on this thread say they quit or switched races, and I also was very close to switching as well(sadly just to have fun)
I've seen a lot of "whine"(according to many of the toss that don't want to admit the fact that there are some underlying issues) for TvP and ZvP, so obviously T and Z OP? Give me a break.
I still think T has to play at a league higher to beat a P in a lower league(Z to a certain extent as well)...IMO, but to all the toss I guess i'll just play more and play better. Well, from what I have gathered from this thread, there appears some terrans do not have a full understanding of the match up. Case and point is a few pages ago when the topic of picking off observers was brought up. Several terrans players posted that they did not feel it was worth a scan it to snipe an observer. This was meet with the response from all protoss players and TypeNaruto to “kill all observers, all the time”. Personally I found this surprising, since denying information is one of terran’s main strengths and it was strange players would not exploit that. With protoss, this sort of information and their ability to gather it allows them to make decisions on when to expand, how to spend chrono boost and what units to make. That on top of knowing where the terran army is, which is the most important information of all. It seemed weird that some players just assumed that a mule was more important than denying this information. I am not saying everyone who is having issues is bad, but there do appear some points where player goals in the match up seem off. No Terran said a scan is not worth it. People are saying that with observer scouting, you most likely will get all the information before getting killed. Unless you dive observer right on Terran's nose, no mortal eyes can detect and kill observers 10 times out of 10 before they got in the base and scout all the information. You are correct, there is no way to 100% deny informtion for every race. But to get an advantage, you don't need to deny 100% information. Most protoss assume if you expanded that they are going to see some flavor of MMM. It can sometimes take a minute or more for a protoss's replacement to observer to get back where it needs to be. In games that last 15-20 minutes, that a huge amount of time. Anything could have happened at that point, a tech switchs, drops, a fast third base or a two base timing attack. More importantly, protoss players are saying "This is scary. When this happens, it slows me down and I need to worry about more things. I don't feel safe expanding if I don't have an observer in place watching their army. Replacing the observer is important and it makes the game harder when people snipe them". When zerg players said that early zealot/voidray pressure was scary, I did not respond with "Zealots are crap PvZ. Everyone knows that it is impossible to make them good". I responded with "Really? How?" Can you tell me what terran tech switch is possible in under two minutes? I agree, that drops are more dangerous in that period of time, but the rest of the things is laughable and you are only worried about it because in PvZ it might be a real threat. Taking your third 1 minute behind the terran is OK, you are expecting attacks/drops at that point in time anyhow, so what? Then again, you ignore me anyhow..
Not saying everything you write down is blatantly wrong, but your mindset sure is. I'm pretty certain you lose more games due to overcommitment and mindset than actually losing the game because its hard to play. Terran vs Protoss is winnable, not easy but certainly winnable at the highest level of competition, being Terran favored even.
If you want to simply QQ that Protoss is oh so imbalanced, please leave it out of the thread. It should be about how to improve and what to do more than how hard it is. I often explained in this thread that a Terran that tries to end the game fast and gets non-cost-efficient trades will end up in lategame due to Protoss being defensive, yet with a disadvantage. You can harass without being cost-inefficient and enter lategame on even terms or even ahead, thats your chance to win.
The other option is having ridiculous good timings and control like Polt or MKP. Multi prong attacks and multi drops, showing your army in one place, dropping the other place. This is once again only possible if there is no observer hovering over your army.
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As a Top 8 master Terran for 3 seasons I feel like I should input my 2 cents here.
TvP is ridiculously hard for Terran, so much so that this season I honestly considered switching permanently to Protoss. 1 season ago I "tested the waters" with Protoss to see if the race was as easy as some had claimed.
I put in about 30 games in obs and I took my battle with Protoss to another account. I was able to reach top 8 master with very few games and even had a few GM wins while offracing. I concluded that although Protoss was indeed much easier to play than Terran and I could probably have more success with Protoss, I felt that Protoss was much less fun than Terran.
With that said, I decided to remain with Terran because I enjoy a challenge even if it makes me angry at times, and I refuse like most Terran players that have stayed with the race, not to take the easy way out and play Protoss. I think if we keep challenging our own perceptions about the match ups, there is hope.
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On April 03 2012 16:08 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 15:43 Thrombozyt wrote:On April 03 2012 06:57 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2012 06:21 canikizu wrote:On April 03 2012 05:39 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2012 05:16 Superneenja wrote:
So basically from this thread is if you play terran and have problems with TvP, just play better? ...but I'm sure we want to have fun too, and its just not the case when playing P or Z. Theres not enough room to recover from a small mistake, and I don't know about other T's but im always stressed out making sure that 2 banelings or storms dont kill like half of my army.
In light of this thread I've started playing again, but ya 5 games in T is still not fun... and i don't think its surprising to see the T population diminishing. I've seen various people just on this thread say they quit or switched races, and I also was very close to switching as well(sadly just to have fun)
I've seen a lot of "whine"(according to many of the toss that don't want to admit the fact that there are some underlying issues) for TvP and ZvP, so obviously T and Z OP? Give me a break.
I still think T has to play at a league higher to beat a P in a lower league(Z to a certain extent as well)...IMO, but to all the toss I guess i'll just play more and play better. Well, from what I have gathered from this thread, there appears some terrans do not have a full understanding of the match up. Case and point is a few pages ago when the topic of picking off observers was brought up. Several terrans players posted that they did not feel it was worth a scan it to snipe an observer. This was meet with the response from all protoss players and TypeNaruto to “kill all observers, all the time”. Personally I found this surprising, since denying information is one of terran’s main strengths and it was strange players would not exploit that. With protoss, this sort of information and their ability to gather it allows them to make decisions on when to expand, how to spend chrono boost and what units to make. That on top of knowing where the terran army is, which is the most important information of all. It seemed weird that some players just assumed that a mule was more important than denying this information. I am not saying everyone who is having issues is bad, but there do appear some points where player goals in the match up seem off. No Terran said a scan is not worth it. People are saying that with observer scouting, you most likely will get all the information before getting killed. Unless you dive observer right on Terran's nose, no mortal eyes can detect and kill observers 10 times out of 10 before they got in the base and scout all the information. You are correct, there is no way to 100% deny informtion for every race. But to get an advantage, you don't need to deny 100% information. Most protoss assume if you expanded that they are going to see some flavor of MMM. It can sometimes take a minute or more for a protoss's replacement to observer to get back where it needs to be. In games that last 15-20 minutes, that a huge amount of time. Anything could have happened at that point, a tech switchs, drops, a fast third base or a two base timing attack. More importantly, protoss players are saying "This is scary. When this happens, it slows me down and I need to worry about more things. I don't feel safe expanding if I don't have an observer in place watching their army. Replacing the observer is important and it makes the game harder when people snipe them". When zerg players said that early zealot/voidray pressure was scary, I did not respond with "Zealots are crap PvZ. Everyone knows that it is impossible to make them good". I responded with "Really? How?" Can you tell me what terran tech switch is possible in under two minutes? I agree, that drops are more dangerous in that period of time, but the rest of the things is laughable and you are only worried about it because in PvZ it might be a real threat. Taking your third 1 minute behind the terran is OK, you are expecting attacks/drops at that point in time anyhow, so what? Then again, you ignore me anyhow.. Not saying everything you write down is blatantly wrong, but your mindset sure is. I'm pretty certain you lose more games due to overcommitment and mindset than actually losing the game because its hard to play. Terran vs Protoss is winnable, not easy but certainly winnable at the highest level of competition, being Terran favored even. If you want to simply QQ that Protoss is oh so imbalanced, please leave it out of the thread. It should be about how to improve and what to do more than how hard it is. I often explained in this thread that a Terran that tries to end the game fast and gets non-cost-efficient trades will end up in lategame due to Protoss being defensive, yet with a disadvantage. You can harass without being cost-inefficient and enter lategame on even terms or even ahead, thats your chance to win. The other option is having ridiculous good timings and control like Polt or MKP. Multi prong attacks and multi drops, showing your army in one place, dropping the other place. This is once again only possible if there is no observer hovering over your army.
I realize, that TvP is certainly winnable. My TvP is also certainly better than my TvZ at the moment. To be honest, I collect many wins there from failed protoss aggression, but in macro games I can often deal enough damage with multi-prong attacks to cripple them. Also I do not say that Protoss is oh so imbalanced. If I do so in your eyes, could you high light those passages? I only say, that:
a) Terran in TvP is pigeon holed into one style - which makes it easy to anticipate and it happens to be a style that I don't enjoy so much.
b) Terran has to adapt to the protoss while - at least at the level that I play - the protoss can follow a given path for each and every macro game without being at a major disadvantage.
c) Terran has a distinct disadvantage in the late game due to being more fragile. Once 15+ warpgates are online, the margin by which terran has to win an engagement to deal damage is greater by far than for the protoss.
Let me turn to bolded section 1:
I'm sorry, but even though you think the thread should be about how to improve and what to do (which is a great topic, don't get me wrong) this thread is about why Terran is underrepresented on the ladder - especially in platinum to low masters. This has much to do with - at least perceived - difficulty of play. Attacking is often more difficult than defending especially if the defender knows there will be an attack coming. Which is how the match-up works. Maybe it's really hard for you to turtle and NOT move out, but I find sitting at home and having my opponent come to me easier, especially if I know that the longer the game goes the better my chances.
For 'entering the late game ahead after cost efficient harass':
It is hard to harass cost efficiently if you opponent knows drops are coming. Yes, terran drops are good. I know it. I utilize it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. What advantage do I get with the harass? Usually economic harass, sometimes I kill tech, best case I cancel upgrades. This means that my usual advantage is of economic nature. Which doesn't help me a ton, because I can be greedy anyhow if the protoss turtles. You said yourself in your post, that too much economy often hurts. While I don't agree on that point, I agree that the eco advantage comes only into play in a few situations with the main caveat being that each engagement needs to be at least a draw, so I can produce faster with my banked resources.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, that I have to do major damage with my harass in order to be so far ahead to carry my advantage through the late game. Thus I try to maximize the impact of the early mid-game where I have an advantage with 1/1 stim/shield and starport tech complete. Many toss don't realize that's the danger zone and they die. For me this style and any all-in are the only variety that I see viable and most pro-games that I see revolve around the same.
Compare that to the protoss options that offer a range of 1base all-ins (4gate, 3gate immortal bust, DTs, 1base colossus coming back in low masters) 2 base timings (6-7gate bust, 2base colossus) and 2-3 destinct macro game styles (colossus, storm, double forge).
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On April 03 2012 08:11 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 07:53 LavaLava wrote:On April 03 2012 05:16 Instigata wrote:On April 03 2012 04:51 Ktk wrote:On April 03 2012 04:34 LavaLava wrote:On April 02 2012 19:55 Bommes wrote:On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate. Whining is all about group dynamics. Others say its impossible to win in TvX and everything is shit? Oh, I just had a losing streak on ladder? GUESS WHAT I WILL JUST QQ MY HEART OUT IN THE FORUMS. I don't see how the terran community should get more credibility than anyone else. Well, if there was a problem with TvP, who would complain? Zergs? I mean really. And the issue isn't so much that it's unplayable, because most Terrans admit that the early game is favored towards Terran, it's just that the lategame is very Protoss favored, and the culture of foreign Starcraft is such that if you win a game before 15 minutes you're a worthless scrubby cheesing faggot who can't play the game. I think Terran players are mad that the proper way to play TvP right now is risky attacks that makes everyone hate them irrationally. I mean, if their arguments don't gain credibility when the prevailing attitude is "make Terran worse in the early game so you can buff it in the lategame" I don't know what would. All Terrans should throw that ideology out the window. If they die early they deserved and you're smart for cutting the game short and not wasting time dealing with greedy players. I agree. I posted somewhere before how dumb it is that the only acceptable way to play this game is retarded. Building another base as your first building? 1 gate/rax into another base? People should go play farmville or simcity if they want to just build workers and bases. Hate the hate for 1base and even 2 base play. I agree as well. Every time I hear shit like "3 Base all in" I want to throw up. Although, when he says Terrans should throw that ideology out, he's right, but he makes it sound like it's just Terrans... while the other 75% of players are at least as likely to hold such biases towards short games and aggressive play. I think it's lame that Terran is essentially built as a more aggressive race right now, but all these people see aggression as 'dishonorable' and demand that Terrans wait until maxed 3/3 colossi before they try to kill a Protoss, for instance... which is a fucking stupid way to play unless you're top GM and can micro MMMGV with so few losses that you can actually overcome lategame warpins. Don't take that as whine, it's not meant to be, I'm just saying everyone knows it's easier to kill Protoss before they're powering critical masses of big ass splash units, which means the proper way to play is to hit sooner instead of later. I guess the point is that individual Terrans will either try to make it to the lategame and get shit for a lower winrate, or try to kill/damage earlier and get shit for being "all in". There's not really a way to play that pleases anybody. (so of course the proper response is to say fuck em and win games) It's the ladder, you won't get anything from opponents ever, no matter what you play. Examples: I go 2base roach vs toss: "fucking cheeser" I go 3base roach/ling into muta vs toss: "muta abuser". I go 2base muta vs a terran that tried to blindcounter ling/infestor by secretly massing banshees after expanding: "noob. noone plays mutas anymore, learn your race" I go 3base mass ling low eco aggression vs Terran TLO style: "wtf man" I go 3base macro vs Terran: "bunker more noob" I go 2base muta with 4 standard spines: "yeah, build more crawlers noob" when his roach allin failed. You will always get shit for what you do on the ladder. It's dumb, anoying and disrespects all thoughts you put into your strategy, but it doesnt make it true.
That's ladder for you.
Well I agree with your earlier point that BCs would be good against Protoss, but herein lies another reason why Terran is a very difficult race and why the late game for Terran is so difficult. Instead of producing any unit with larva from the same production facility (hatch) or warping in any variety of units, Terran has no such luxury.
Instead as Terran you not only have to worry about buildings themselves and the lost mining time to build them, but then also the issue of tech labs and reactors.
I have won against a strong Gm protoss player in the late, late game by PFing the mid on shakuras and massing ghost/viking/mm while transitioning to 3/3 BCs while defending, nuking and dropping, but it is so very difficult as Terran to 1) have the resources to be able to do that 2) to be granted the defensive position that permits you to do that
As much as I would love to be able to produce from a few production facilities, I'm not permitted this.
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On April 03 2012 17:07 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 16:08 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 03 2012 15:43 Thrombozyt wrote:On April 03 2012 06:57 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2012 06:21 canikizu wrote:On April 03 2012 05:39 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2012 05:16 Superneenja wrote:
So basically from this thread is if you play terran and have problems with TvP, just play better? ...but I'm sure we want to have fun too, and its just not the case when playing P or Z. Theres not enough room to recover from a small mistake, and I don't know about other T's but im always stressed out making sure that 2 banelings or storms dont kill like half of my army.
In light of this thread I've started playing again, but ya 5 games in T is still not fun... and i don't think its surprising to see the T population diminishing. I've seen various people just on this thread say they quit or switched races, and I also was very close to switching as well(sadly just to have fun)
I've seen a lot of "whine"(according to many of the toss that don't want to admit the fact that there are some underlying issues) for TvP and ZvP, so obviously T and Z OP? Give me a break.
I still think T has to play at a league higher to beat a P in a lower league(Z to a certain extent as well)...IMO, but to all the toss I guess i'll just play more and play better. Well, from what I have gathered from this thread, there appears some terrans do not have a full understanding of the match up. Case and point is a few pages ago when the topic of picking off observers was brought up. Several terrans players posted that they did not feel it was worth a scan it to snipe an observer. This was meet with the response from all protoss players and TypeNaruto to “kill all observers, all the time”. Personally I found this surprising, since denying information is one of terran’s main strengths and it was strange players would not exploit that. With protoss, this sort of information and their ability to gather it allows them to make decisions on when to expand, how to spend chrono boost and what units to make. That on top of knowing where the terran army is, which is the most important information of all. It seemed weird that some players just assumed that a mule was more important than denying this information. I am not saying everyone who is having issues is bad, but there do appear some points where player goals in the match up seem off. No Terran said a scan is not worth it. People are saying that with observer scouting, you most likely will get all the information before getting killed. Unless you dive observer right on Terran's nose, no mortal eyes can detect and kill observers 10 times out of 10 before they got in the base and scout all the information. You are correct, there is no way to 100% deny informtion for every race. But to get an advantage, you don't need to deny 100% information. Most protoss assume if you expanded that they are going to see some flavor of MMM. It can sometimes take a minute or more for a protoss's replacement to observer to get back where it needs to be. In games that last 15-20 minutes, that a huge amount of time. Anything could have happened at that point, a tech switchs, drops, a fast third base or a two base timing attack. More importantly, protoss players are saying "This is scary. When this happens, it slows me down and I need to worry about more things. I don't feel safe expanding if I don't have an observer in place watching their army. Replacing the observer is important and it makes the game harder when people snipe them". When zerg players said that early zealot/voidray pressure was scary, I did not respond with "Zealots are crap PvZ. Everyone knows that it is impossible to make them good". I responded with "Really? How?" Can you tell me what terran tech switch is possible in under two minutes? I agree, that drops are more dangerous in that period of time, but the rest of the things is laughable and you are only worried about it because in PvZ it might be a real threat. Taking your third 1 minute behind the terran is OK, you are expecting attacks/drops at that point in time anyhow, so what? Then again, you ignore me anyhow.. Not saying everything you write down is blatantly wrong, but your mindset sure is. I'm pretty certain you lose more games due to overcommitment and mindset than actually losing the game because its hard to play. Terran vs Protoss is winnable, not easy but certainly winnable at the highest level of competition, being Terran favored even. If you want to simply QQ that Protoss is oh so imbalanced, please leave it out of the thread. It should be about how to improve and what to do more than how hard it is. I often explained in this thread that a Terran that tries to end the game fast and gets non-cost-efficient trades will end up in lategame due to Protoss being defensive, yet with a disadvantage. You can harass without being cost-inefficient and enter lategame on even terms or even ahead, thats your chance to win. The other option is having ridiculous good timings and control like Polt or MKP. Multi prong attacks and multi drops, showing your army in one place, dropping the other place. This is once again only possible if there is no observer hovering over your army. I realize, that TvP is certainly winnable. My TvP is also certainly better than my TvZ at the moment. To be honest, I collect many wins there from failed protoss aggression, but in macro games I can often deal enough damage with multi-prong attacks to cripple them. Also I do not say that Protoss is oh so imbalanced. If I do so in your eyes, could you high light those passages? I only say, that: a) Terran in TvP is pigeon holed into one style - which makes it easy to anticipate and it happens to be a style that I don't enjoy so much. b) Terran has to adapt to the protoss while - at least at the level that I play - the protoss can follow a given path for each and every macro game without being at a major disadvantage. c) Terran has a distinct disadvantage in the late game due to being more fragile. Once 15+ warpgates are online, the margin by which terran has to win an engagement to deal damage is greater by far than for the protoss. Let me turn to bolded section 1: I'm sorry, but even though you think the thread should be about how to improve and what to do (which is a great topic, don't get me wrong) this thread is about why Terran is underrepresented on the ladder - especially in platinum to low masters. This has much to do with - at least perceived - difficulty of play. Attacking is often more difficult than defending especially if the defender knows there will be an attack coming. Which is how the match-up works. Maybe it's really hard for you to turtle and NOT move out, but I find sitting at home and having my opponent come to me easier, especially if I know that the longer the game goes the better my chances. For 'entering the late game ahead after cost efficient harass': It is hard to harass cost efficiently if you opponent knows drops are coming. Yes, terran drops are good. I know it. I utilize it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. What advantage do I get with the harass? Usually economic harass, sometimes I kill tech, best case I cancel upgrades. This means that my usual advantage is of economic nature. Which doesn't help me a ton, because I can be greedy anyhow if the protoss turtles. You said yourself in your post, that too much economy often hurts. While I don't agree on that point, I agree that the eco advantage comes only into play in a few situations with the main caveat being that each engagement needs to be at least a draw, so I can produce faster with my banked resources. I guess what I'm trying to say is, that I have to do major damage with my harass in order to be so far ahead to carry my advantage through the late game. Thus I try to maximize the impact of the early mid-game where I have an advantage with 1/1 stim/shield and starport tech complete. Many toss don't realize that's the danger zone and they die. For me this style and any all-in are the only variety that I see viable and most pro-games that I see revolve around the same. Compare that to the protoss options that offer a range of 1base all-ins (4gate, 3gate immortal bust, DTs, 1base colossus coming back in low masters) 2 base timings (6-7gate bust, 2base colossus) and 2-3 destinct macro game styles (colossus, storm, double forge).
+1. Very well said.
User was warned for this post
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On April 03 2012 17:07 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 16:08 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 03 2012 15:43 Thrombozyt wrote:On April 03 2012 06:57 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2012 06:21 canikizu wrote:On April 03 2012 05:39 Plansix wrote:On April 03 2012 05:16 Superneenja wrote:
So basically from this thread is if you play terran and have problems with TvP, just play better? ...but I'm sure we want to have fun too, and its just not the case when playing P or Z. Theres not enough room to recover from a small mistake, and I don't know about other T's but im always stressed out making sure that 2 banelings or storms dont kill like half of my army.
In light of this thread I've started playing again, but ya 5 games in T is still not fun... and i don't think its surprising to see the T population diminishing. I've seen various people just on this thread say they quit or switched races, and I also was very close to switching as well(sadly just to have fun)
I've seen a lot of "whine"(according to many of the toss that don't want to admit the fact that there are some underlying issues) for TvP and ZvP, so obviously T and Z OP? Give me a break.
I still think T has to play at a league higher to beat a P in a lower league(Z to a certain extent as well)...IMO, but to all the toss I guess i'll just play more and play better. Well, from what I have gathered from this thread, there appears some terrans do not have a full understanding of the match up. Case and point is a few pages ago when the topic of picking off observers was brought up. Several terrans players posted that they did not feel it was worth a scan it to snipe an observer. This was meet with the response from all protoss players and TypeNaruto to “kill all observers, all the time”. Personally I found this surprising, since denying information is one of terran’s main strengths and it was strange players would not exploit that. With protoss, this sort of information and their ability to gather it allows them to make decisions on when to expand, how to spend chrono boost and what units to make. That on top of knowing where the terran army is, which is the most important information of all. It seemed weird that some players just assumed that a mule was more important than denying this information. I am not saying everyone who is having issues is bad, but there do appear some points where player goals in the match up seem off. No Terran said a scan is not worth it. People are saying that with observer scouting, you most likely will get all the information before getting killed. Unless you dive observer right on Terran's nose, no mortal eyes can detect and kill observers 10 times out of 10 before they got in the base and scout all the information. You are correct, there is no way to 100% deny informtion for every race. But to get an advantage, you don't need to deny 100% information. Most protoss assume if you expanded that they are going to see some flavor of MMM. It can sometimes take a minute or more for a protoss's replacement to observer to get back where it needs to be. In games that last 15-20 minutes, that a huge amount of time. Anything could have happened at that point, a tech switchs, drops, a fast third base or a two base timing attack. More importantly, protoss players are saying "This is scary. When this happens, it slows me down and I need to worry about more things. I don't feel safe expanding if I don't have an observer in place watching their army. Replacing the observer is important and it makes the game harder when people snipe them". When zerg players said that early zealot/voidray pressure was scary, I did not respond with "Zealots are crap PvZ. Everyone knows that it is impossible to make them good". I responded with "Really? How?" Can you tell me what terran tech switch is possible in under two minutes? I agree, that drops are more dangerous in that period of time, but the rest of the things is laughable and you are only worried about it because in PvZ it might be a real threat. Taking your third 1 minute behind the terran is OK, you are expecting attacks/drops at that point in time anyhow, so what? Then again, you ignore me anyhow.. Not saying everything you write down is blatantly wrong, but your mindset sure is. I'm pretty certain you lose more games due to overcommitment and mindset than actually losing the game because its hard to play. Terran vs Protoss is winnable, not easy but certainly winnable at the highest level of competition, being Terran favored even. If you want to simply QQ that Protoss is oh so imbalanced, please leave it out of the thread. It should be about how to improve and what to do more than how hard it is. I often explained in this thread that a Terran that tries to end the game fast and gets non-cost-efficient trades will end up in lategame due to Protoss being defensive, yet with a disadvantage. You can harass without being cost-inefficient and enter lategame on even terms or even ahead, thats your chance to win. The other option is having ridiculous good timings and control like Polt or MKP. Multi prong attacks and multi drops, showing your army in one place, dropping the other place. This is once again only possible if there is no observer hovering over your army. I realize, that TvP is certainly winnable. My TvP is also certainly better than my TvZ at the moment. To be honest, I collect many wins there from failed protoss aggression, but in macro games I can often deal enough damage with multi-prong attacks to cripple them. Also I do not say that Protoss is oh so imbalanced. If I do so in your eyes, could you high light those passages? I only say, that: a) Terran in TvP is pigeon holed into one style - which makes it easy to anticipate and it happens to be a style that I don't enjoy so much. b) Terran has to adapt to the protoss while - at least at the level that I play - the protoss can follow a given path for each and every macro game without being at a major disadvantage. c) Terran has a distinct disadvantage in the late game due to being more fragile. Once 15+ warpgates are online, the margin by which terran has to win an engagement to deal damage is greater by far than for the protoss. Let me turn to bolded section 1: I'm sorry, but even though you think the thread should be about how to improve and what to do (which is a great topic, don't get me wrong) this thread is about why Terran is underrepresented on the ladder - especially in platinum to low masters. This has much to do with - at least perceived - difficulty of play. Attacking is often more difficult than defending especially if the defender knows there will be an attack coming. Which is how the match-up works. Maybe it's really hard for you to turtle and NOT move out, but I find sitting at home and having my opponent come to me easier, especially if I know that the longer the game goes the better my chances. For 'entering the late game ahead after cost efficient harass': It is hard to harass cost efficiently if you opponent knows drops are coming. Yes, terran drops are good. I know it. I utilize it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. What advantage do I get with the harass? Usually economic harass, sometimes I kill tech, best case I cancel upgrades. This means that my usual advantage is of economic nature. Which doesn't help me a ton, because I can be greedy anyhow if the protoss turtles. You said yourself in your post, that too much economy often hurts. While I don't agree on that point, I agree that the eco advantage comes only into play in a few situations with the main caveat being that each engagement needs to be at least a draw, so I can produce faster with my banked resources. I guess what I'm trying to say is, that I have to do major damage with my harass in order to be so far ahead to carry my advantage through the late game. Thus I try to maximize the impact of the early mid-game where I have an advantage with 1/1 stim/shield and starport tech complete. Many toss don't realize that's the danger zone and they die. For me this style and any all-in are the only variety that I see viable and most pro-games that I see revolve around the same. Compare that to the protoss options that offer a range of 1base all-ins (4gate, 3gate immortal bust, DTs, 1base colossus coming back in low masters) 2 base timings (6-7gate bust, 2base colossus) and 2-3 destinct macro game styles (colossus, storm, double forge).
I want to answer properly to your well written post, but I'm at work and I feel I cannot answer in the same proper way you deserve for writing out a good post, I will answer it from home though.
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On April 03 2012 17:08 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 08:11 Big J wrote:On April 03 2012 07:53 LavaLava wrote:On April 03 2012 05:16 Instigata wrote:On April 03 2012 04:51 Ktk wrote:On April 03 2012 04:34 LavaLava wrote:On April 02 2012 19:55 Bommes wrote:On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate. Whining is all about group dynamics. Others say its impossible to win in TvX and everything is shit? Oh, I just had a losing streak on ladder? GUESS WHAT I WILL JUST QQ MY HEART OUT IN THE FORUMS. I don't see how the terran community should get more credibility than anyone else. Well, if there was a problem with TvP, who would complain? Zergs? I mean really. And the issue isn't so much that it's unplayable, because most Terrans admit that the early game is favored towards Terran, it's just that the lategame is very Protoss favored, and the culture of foreign Starcraft is such that if you win a game before 15 minutes you're a worthless scrubby cheesing faggot who can't play the game. I think Terran players are mad that the proper way to play TvP right now is risky attacks that makes everyone hate them irrationally. I mean, if their arguments don't gain credibility when the prevailing attitude is "make Terran worse in the early game so you can buff it in the lategame" I don't know what would. All Terrans should throw that ideology out the window. If they die early they deserved and you're smart for cutting the game short and not wasting time dealing with greedy players. I agree. I posted somewhere before how dumb it is that the only acceptable way to play this game is retarded. Building another base as your first building? 1 gate/rax into another base? People should go play farmville or simcity if they want to just build workers and bases. Hate the hate for 1base and even 2 base play. I agree as well. Every time I hear shit like "3 Base all in" I want to throw up. Although, when he says Terrans should throw that ideology out, he's right, but he makes it sound like it's just Terrans... while the other 75% of players are at least as likely to hold such biases towards short games and aggressive play. I think it's lame that Terran is essentially built as a more aggressive race right now, but all these people see aggression as 'dishonorable' and demand that Terrans wait until maxed 3/3 colossi before they try to kill a Protoss, for instance... which is a fucking stupid way to play unless you're top GM and can micro MMMGV with so few losses that you can actually overcome lategame warpins. Don't take that as whine, it's not meant to be, I'm just saying everyone knows it's easier to kill Protoss before they're powering critical masses of big ass splash units, which means the proper way to play is to hit sooner instead of later. I guess the point is that individual Terrans will either try to make it to the lategame and get shit for a lower winrate, or try to kill/damage earlier and get shit for being "all in". There's not really a way to play that pleases anybody. (so of course the proper response is to say fuck em and win games) It's the ladder, you won't get anything from opponents ever, no matter what you play. Examples: I go 2base roach vs toss: "fucking cheeser" I go 3base roach/ling into muta vs toss: "muta abuser". I go 2base muta vs a terran that tried to blindcounter ling/infestor by secretly massing banshees after expanding: "noob. noone plays mutas anymore, learn your race" I go 3base mass ling low eco aggression vs Terran TLO style: "wtf man" I go 3base macro vs Terran: "bunker more noob" I go 2base muta with 4 standard spines: "yeah, build more crawlers noob" when his roach allin failed. You will always get shit for what you do on the ladder. It's dumb, anoying and disrespects all thoughts you put into your strategy, but it doesnt make it true. That's ladder for you. Well I agree with your earlier point that BCs would be good against Protoss, but herein lies another reason why Terran is a very difficult race and why the late game for Terran is so difficult. Instead of producing any unit with larva from the same production facility (hatch) or warping in any variety of units, Terran has no such luxury. Instead as Terran you not only have to worry about buildings themselves and the lost mining time to build them, but then also the issue of tech labs and reactors. I have won against a strong Gm protoss player in the late, late game by PFing the mid on shakuras and massing ghost/viking/mm while transitioning to 3/3 BCs while defending, nuking and dropping, but it is so very difficult as Terran to 1) have the resources to be able to do that 2) to be granted the defensive position that permits you to do that As much as I would love to be able to produce from a few production facilities, I'm not permitted this.
I don't get why you would quote one of my comments but then talk about a different one.
If you quote the other one, as far as I remember it should say something like "BCs good vs Protoss ground, but hard to transition into", which pretty much meant what you described:
You have to build extra tech, extra production and extra upgrades compared to when you just keep on spamming bio.
And no, Terran does not get hatch-production, as much as you would like that, it would be completely broken with the units Terran has and the speed they can tech to them.
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On April 03 2012 17:07 Thrombozyt wrote:
Compare that to the protoss options that offer a range of 1base all-ins (4gate, 3gate immortal bust, DTs, 1base colossus coming back in low masters) 2 base timings (6-7gate bust, 2base colossus) and 2-3 destinct macro game styles (colossus, storm, double forge).
Terran also has a great range of one and two base all-ins against protoss now- look what the top terrans in Korea are doing these days- from standard marine/tank/banshee 1-1-1s (which still work), to hellion harass into 1-1-1, to marine/tank bansheeless pushes to thor/hellion/banshee to banshee/marine with no tanks. And there are always the old standards such as 3 rax marine bunker rushes if toss is being greedy. The '1-1-1/2-2-2' variation all-ins are far more effective than 4 gate, DTs and 1 base colossus (which are all easy to deal with when scouted) because they are good even when scouted and because there are so many ways to tweak them which require completely different unit compositions from the toss.
Anyway, I really don't think you shouldn't be trying to use protoss all-ins as part of your complaint when terran all-ins are so good in this match up.
As for macro styles Lynna has proved in his other thread that biomech/sky mech can be viable as an alternative to pure bio at least up to high masters EU even with fairly low APM. Yes, yes, I know you'll say b-but Goody doesn't use mech anymore! Well guess what- most of the people complaining are not pros- it doesn't have to work at pro level to be viable on ladder. After all that's what this whole thread is about right- ladder.
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Oops, meant to click edit.
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On April 03 2012 18:09 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 17:07 Thrombozyt wrote:
Compare that to the protoss options that offer a range of 1base all-ins (4gate, 3gate immortal bust, DTs, 1base colossus coming back in low masters) 2 base timings (6-7gate bust, 2base colossus) and 2-3 destinct macro game styles (colossus, storm, double forge). Terran also has a great range of one and two base all-ins against protoss now- look what the top terrans in Korea are doing these days- from standard marine/tank/banshee 1-1-1s (which still work), to hellion harass into 1-1-1, to marine/tank bansheeless pushes to thor/hellion/banshee to banshee/marine with no tanks. And there are always the old standards such as 3 rax marine bunker rushes if toss is being greedy. The '1-1-1/2-2-2' variation all-ins are far more effective than 4 gate, DTs and 1 base colossus (which are all easy to deal with when scouted) because they are good even when scouted and because there are so many ways to tweak them which require completely different unit compositions from the toss. Anyway, I really don't think you shouldn't be trying to use protoss all-ins as part of your complaint when terran all-ins are so good in this match up. As for macro styles Lynna has proved in his other thread that biomech/sky mech can be viable at least up to high masters EU even with fairly low APM. Yes, yes, I know you'll say b-but Goody doesn't use mech anymore! Well guess what- most of the people complaining are not pros- it doesn't have to work at pro level to be viable on ladder. After all that's what this whole thread is about right- ladder.
I never said that Terran 1base play was lacking. The lacking part is that it's very unfavorable to play into the late game without hitting really good on the timing of your choice. While I have not tried Lynna's build, I have tried biomech fairly often (fails horribly if the toss knows what to do) and there are some things about the guide that don't really make me hopeful. Like 'sometimes I hold a 6 gate all in with 1 bunker and a mediocre amount of marines' or 'Raves, they shut down void rays hard'. Also his timing when to attack: 'NEVER!'.
Once again, let me stress, that my complaint wasn't that my all-ins aren't strong enough or not flexible enough. I was comparing the range of playstyles (all-in, timing pushes, adaptive macro game) and their viability to the range of terran options. While protoss all-ins when scouted are not that powerful, they are viable because the first stalker shuts down scouting until marauder/concussive comes out. Prior to that, terran cannot scout (don't say SCAN! because you know that the deciding all-in buildings will NOT be in standard locations).
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On April 03 2012 18:34 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:09 tomatriedes wrote:On April 03 2012 17:07 Thrombozyt wrote:
Compare that to the protoss options that offer a range of 1base all-ins (4gate, 3gate immortal bust, DTs, 1base colossus coming back in low masters) 2 base timings (6-7gate bust, 2base colossus) and 2-3 destinct macro game styles (colossus, storm, double forge). Terran also has a great range of one and two base all-ins against protoss now- look what the top terrans in Korea are doing these days- from standard marine/tank/banshee 1-1-1s (which still work), to hellion harass into 1-1-1, to marine/tank bansheeless pushes to thor/hellion/banshee to banshee/marine with no tanks. And there are always the old standards such as 3 rax marine bunker rushes if toss is being greedy. The '1-1-1/2-2-2' variation all-ins are far more effective than 4 gate, DTs and 1 base colossus (which are all easy to deal with when scouted) because they are good even when scouted and because there are so many ways to tweak them which require completely different unit compositions from the toss. Anyway, I really don't think you shouldn't be trying to use protoss all-ins as part of your complaint when terran all-ins are so good in this match up. As for macro styles Lynna has proved in his other thread that biomech/sky mech can be viable at least up to high masters EU even with fairly low APM. Yes, yes, I know you'll say b-but Goody doesn't use mech anymore! Well guess what- most of the people complaining are not pros- it doesn't have to work at pro level to be viable on ladder. After all that's what this whole thread is about right- ladder. I never said that Terran 1base play was lacking. The lacking part is that it's very unfavorable to play into the late game without hitting really good on the timing of your choice. While I have not tried Lynna's build, I have tried biomech fairly often (fails horribly if the toss knows what to do) and there are some things about the guide that don't really make me hopeful. Like 'sometimes I hold a 6 gate all in with 1 bunker and a mediocre amount of marines' or 'Raves, they shut down void rays hard'. Also his timing when to attack: 'NEVER!'. Once again, let me stress, that my complaint wasn't that my all-ins aren't strong enough or not flexible enough. I was comparing the range of playstyles (all-in, timing pushes, adaptive macro game) and their viability to the range of terran options. While protoss all-ins when scouted are not that powerful, they are viable because the first stalker shuts down scouting until marauder/concussive comes out. Prior to that, terran cannot scout (don't say SCAN! because you know that the deciding all-in buildings will NOT be in standard locations).
Your argument would be stronger if you'd concentrate on the macro play styles that P can choose. I'm incapable of providing sufficiently high level analysis myself, but I think an argument could be made that despite a P wanting to get EVERYTHING in his arsenal, there are many different routes to it. Double forge is an example, early templar is an example, early colossus is an example, warp-prism DT/archon is an example. I don't understand them well enough, though, so I might be distinguishing things that don't deserve to be distinguished. The point of the argument, if tenable, is that compared to P, a T has fewer options (if we disregard reactionary units like ghosts for HT, vikings for Colo, and... well, that's it).
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On April 03 2012 12:16 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 11:50 vOdToasT wrote:
What I just described is nothing like TvP. In TvP you just want to attack attack attack, any even trade is good for you, since more units is always good for Protoss, and less units is always good for Terran. If you try to play like that vs Zerg you are just going to lose small army after small army to zerglings. Except chargelot / archon which is really strong vs small amounts of bio. But yes, in general trading terran units for protoss units is good due to the gas restrictions that protoss play under. It's only when Terran run out of minerals that they start collapsing.
Kind of, the macro mechanics would really favour Protoss here however with chrono/warp in.
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On April 03 2012 18:34 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:09 tomatriedes wrote:On April 03 2012 17:07 Thrombozyt wrote:
Compare that to the protoss options that offer a range of 1base all-ins (4gate, 3gate immortal bust, DTs, 1base colossus coming back in low masters) 2 base timings (6-7gate bust, 2base colossus) and 2-3 destinct macro game styles (colossus, storm, double forge). Terran also has a great range of one and two base all-ins against protoss now- look what the top terrans in Korea are doing these days- from standard marine/tank/banshee 1-1-1s (which still work), to hellion harass into 1-1-1, to marine/tank bansheeless pushes to thor/hellion/banshee to banshee/marine with no tanks. And there are always the old standards such as 3 rax marine bunker rushes if toss is being greedy. The '1-1-1/2-2-2' variation all-ins are far more effective than 4 gate, DTs and 1 base colossus (which are all easy to deal with when scouted) because they are good even when scouted and because there are so many ways to tweak them which require completely different unit compositions from the toss. Anyway, I really don't think you shouldn't be trying to use protoss all-ins as part of your complaint when terran all-ins are so good in this match up. As for macro styles Lynna has proved in his other thread that biomech/sky mech can be viable at least up to high masters EU even with fairly low APM. Yes, yes, I know you'll say b-but Goody doesn't use mech anymore! Well guess what- most of the people complaining are not pros- it doesn't have to work at pro level to be viable on ladder. After all that's what this whole thread is about right- ladder. I never said that Terran 1base play was lacking. The lacking part is that it's very unfavorable to play into the late game without hitting really good on the timing of your choice. While I have not tried Lynna's build, I have tried biomech fairly often (fails horribly if the toss knows what to do) and there are some things about the guide that don't really make me hopeful. Like 'sometimes I hold a 6 gate all in with 1 bunker and a mediocre amount of marines' or 'Raves, they shut down void rays hard'. Also his timing when to attack: 'NEVER!'. Once again, let me stress, that my complaint wasn't that my all-ins aren't strong enough or not flexible enough. I was comparing the range of playstyles (all-in, timing pushes, adaptive macro game) and their viability to the range of terran options. While protoss all-ins when scouted are not that powerful, they are viable because the first stalker shuts down scouting until marauder/concussive comes out. Prior to that, terran cannot scout (don't say SCAN! because you know that the deciding all-in buildings will NOT be in standard locations).
OK, from the way you wrote it before it wasn't quite clear.
Personally, I wouldn't really mind if there was some late game help for lower level terrans if there was a corresponding early-mid game boost for toss. While it might take more skill to control a late game terran army than a protoss one I think the opposite is true when it comes to 1-1-1 pushes (even after the immortal buff). I have a hard time defending 1-1-1s at my level but when I tried out terran in PvT I went 9-1 doing 1-1-1 every game at the same level, even though I wasn't using most hot keys. To defeat a 1-1-1 even when you know it's coming you need the perfect unit composition, positioning and flanking (unless you were lucky enough to have gone nexus first) whereas on the terran side it's pretty much a matter of sieging in the right place and keeping banshees alive.
Also to be able to compete on the map at all during the mid-game before you have splash as toss generally requires good ffs against an equal-supply stim 1Aed terran army. A lot of the time there is no choice but to turtle until splash units are out to have the best chance of winning- it's not like we really love staying in the base that much.
Anyway for me, in the end, if you try to balance the game for us ladder players you will end up screwing up pro-level and that to me, is more important. I don't think it's really possible to buff and nerf for one level without affecting other levels (not to mention the other match ups) and terran are still doing well at the very top.
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On April 03 2012 19:27 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:34 Thrombozyt wrote:On April 03 2012 18:09 tomatriedes wrote:On April 03 2012 17:07 Thrombozyt wrote:
Compare that to the protoss options that offer a range of 1base all-ins (4gate, 3gate immortal bust, DTs, 1base colossus coming back in low masters) 2 base timings (6-7gate bust, 2base colossus) and 2-3 destinct macro game styles (colossus, storm, double forge). Terran also has a great range of one and two base all-ins against protoss now- look what the top terrans in Korea are doing these days- from standard marine/tank/banshee 1-1-1s (which still work), to hellion harass into 1-1-1, to marine/tank bansheeless pushes to thor/hellion/banshee to banshee/marine with no tanks. And there are always the old standards such as 3 rax marine bunker rushes if toss is being greedy. The '1-1-1/2-2-2' variation all-ins are far more effective than 4 gate, DTs and 1 base colossus (which are all easy to deal with when scouted) because they are good even when scouted and because there are so many ways to tweak them which require completely different unit compositions from the toss. Anyway, I really don't think you shouldn't be trying to use protoss all-ins as part of your complaint when terran all-ins are so good in this match up. As for macro styles Lynna has proved in his other thread that biomech/sky mech can be viable at least up to high masters EU even with fairly low APM. Yes, yes, I know you'll say b-but Goody doesn't use mech anymore! Well guess what- most of the people complaining are not pros- it doesn't have to work at pro level to be viable on ladder. After all that's what this whole thread is about right- ladder. I never said that Terran 1base play was lacking. The lacking part is that it's very unfavorable to play into the late game without hitting really good on the timing of your choice. While I have not tried Lynna's build, I have tried biomech fairly often (fails horribly if the toss knows what to do) and there are some things about the guide that don't really make me hopeful. Like 'sometimes I hold a 6 gate all in with 1 bunker and a mediocre amount of marines' or 'Raves, they shut down void rays hard'. Also his timing when to attack: 'NEVER!'. Once again, let me stress, that my complaint wasn't that my all-ins aren't strong enough or not flexible enough. I was comparing the range of playstyles (all-in, timing pushes, adaptive macro game) and their viability to the range of terran options. While protoss all-ins when scouted are not that powerful, they are viable because the first stalker shuts down scouting until marauder/concussive comes out. Prior to that, terran cannot scout (don't say SCAN! because you know that the deciding all-in buildings will NOT be in standard locations). OK, from the way you wrote it before it wasn't quite clear. Personally, I wouldn't really mind if there was some late game help for lower level terrans if there was a corresponding early-mid game boost for toss. While it might take more skill to control a late game terran army than a protoss one I think the opposite is true when it comes to 1-1-1 pushes (even after the immortal buff). I have a hard time defending 1-1-1s at my level but when I tried out terran in PvT I went 9-1 doing 1-1-1 every game at the same level, even though I wasn't using most hot keys. To defeat a 1-1-1 even when you know it's coming you need the perfect unit composition, positioning and flanking (unless you were lucky enough to have gone nexus first) whereas on the terran side it's pretty much a matter of sieging in the right place and keeping banshees alive. Also to be able to compete on the map at all during the mid-game before you have splash as toss generally requires good ffs against an equal-supply stim 1Aed terran army. A lot of the time there is no choice but to turtle until splash units are out to have the best chance of winning- it's not like we really love staying in the base that much. Anyway for me, in the end, if you try to balance the game for us ladder players you will end up screwing up pro-level and that to me, is more important. I don't think it's really possible to buff and nerf for one level without affecting other levels (not to mention the other match ups) and terran are still doing well at the very top.
So basically early game with 1/1/1 P has to control their army like T has to basically every engagement. I'll give you that one. I don't know why P's dont delay the 1/1/1 push, I've seen this work numerous times on high level replays, use your stalkers to pick off anything you can and force the tanks to siege unsiege every step of the way while massing back at base. Lets just say P took as much skill to control at an even footing P can kite marines all day(and its worth it to take some damage to pick of any marine you can), I've defended a 1/1/1 before while playing random as P using this and it worked, maybe not all of the time but its worked a few times, and I've seen it work. But remember if you hold on, you are most likely going to win(unless you had to pull all your probes)
PS - like your little 1A pot shot...but lets be honest protoss is the epitomy of 1A.
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On April 04 2012 00:33 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 19:27 tomatriedes wrote:On April 03 2012 18:34 Thrombozyt wrote:On April 03 2012 18:09 tomatriedes wrote:On April 03 2012 17:07 Thrombozyt wrote:
Compare that to the protoss options that offer a range of 1base all-ins (4gate, 3gate immortal bust, DTs, 1base colossus coming back in low masters) 2 base timings (6-7gate bust, 2base colossus) and 2-3 destinct macro game styles (colossus, storm, double forge). Terran also has a great range of one and two base all-ins against protoss now- look what the top terrans in Korea are doing these days- from standard marine/tank/banshee 1-1-1s (which still work), to hellion harass into 1-1-1, to marine/tank bansheeless pushes to thor/hellion/banshee to banshee/marine with no tanks. And there are always the old standards such as 3 rax marine bunker rushes if toss is being greedy. The '1-1-1/2-2-2' variation all-ins are far more effective than 4 gate, DTs and 1 base colossus (which are all easy to deal with when scouted) because they are good even when scouted and because there are so many ways to tweak them which require completely different unit compositions from the toss. Anyway, I really don't think you shouldn't be trying to use protoss all-ins as part of your complaint when terran all-ins are so good in this match up. As for macro styles Lynna has proved in his other thread that biomech/sky mech can be viable at least up to high masters EU even with fairly low APM. Yes, yes, I know you'll say b-but Goody doesn't use mech anymore! Well guess what- most of the people complaining are not pros- it doesn't have to work at pro level to be viable on ladder. After all that's what this whole thread is about right- ladder. I never said that Terran 1base play was lacking. The lacking part is that it's very unfavorable to play into the late game without hitting really good on the timing of your choice. While I have not tried Lynna's build, I have tried biomech fairly often (fails horribly if the toss knows what to do) and there are some things about the guide that don't really make me hopeful. Like 'sometimes I hold a 6 gate all in with 1 bunker and a mediocre amount of marines' or 'Raves, they shut down void rays hard'. Also his timing when to attack: 'NEVER!'. Once again, let me stress, that my complaint wasn't that my all-ins aren't strong enough or not flexible enough. I was comparing the range of playstyles (all-in, timing pushes, adaptive macro game) and their viability to the range of terran options. While protoss all-ins when scouted are not that powerful, they are viable because the first stalker shuts down scouting until marauder/concussive comes out. Prior to that, terran cannot scout (don't say SCAN! because you know that the deciding all-in buildings will NOT be in standard locations). OK, from the way you wrote it before it wasn't quite clear. Personally, I wouldn't really mind if there was some late game help for lower level terrans if there was a corresponding early-mid game boost for toss. While it might take more skill to control a late game terran army than a protoss one I think the opposite is true when it comes to 1-1-1 pushes (even after the immortal buff). I have a hard time defending 1-1-1s at my level but when I tried out terran in PvT I went 9-1 doing 1-1-1 every game at the same level, even though I wasn't using most hot keys. To defeat a 1-1-1 even when you know it's coming you need the perfect unit composition, positioning and flanking (unless you were lucky enough to have gone nexus first) whereas on the terran side it's pretty much a matter of sieging in the right place and keeping banshees alive. Also to be able to compete on the map at all during the mid-game before you have splash as toss generally requires good ffs against an equal-supply stim 1Aed terran army. A lot of the time there is no choice but to turtle until splash units are out to have the best chance of winning- it's not like we really love staying in the base that much. Anyway for me, in the end, if you try to balance the game for us ladder players you will end up screwing up pro-level and that to me, is more important. I don't think it's really possible to buff and nerf for one level without affecting other levels (not to mention the other match ups) and terran are still doing well at the very top. So basically early game with 1/1/1 P has to control their army like T has to basically every engagement. I'll give you that one. I don't know why P's dont delay the 1/1/1 push, I've seen this work numerous times on high level replays, use your stalkers to pick off anything you can and force the tanks to siege unsiege every step of the way while massing back at base. Lets just say P took as much skill to control at an even footing P can kite marines all day(and its worth it to take some damage to pick of any marine you can), I've defended a 1/1/1 before while playing random as P using this and it worked, maybe not all of the time but its worked a few times, and I've seen it work. But remember if you hold on, you are most likely going to win(unless you had to pull all your probes) PS - like your little 1A pot shot...but lets be honest protoss is the epitomy of 1A.
You're being oversensitive. It wasn't a potshot at terran at all- I was simply stating that a midgame equal supply terran army (with medivacs) can 1A stim and kill a protoss army that doesn't have splash unless they FF well. That's just one of the realities of the game. Funny that you felt the need to make some jab back about it. :/
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This thread shows that after an early game Protoss advantage (probably due to cannon rushes) Terran gains an advantage around the 15 minute mark and then loses it for the rest of the game at around 20 minutes. That's when a lot of 2 base all ins fully fail and Protoss is able to get their mega splash units on the field.
The graphs for PvZ and ZvT are much skinner, at least after the early game, indicating more even gameplay throughout the length of matches. TvP is definitely the most 2 dimensional and alternately imbalanced matchup, for both Terran and Protoss.
It's obviously been said before, but this data definitely supports the idea that we need some kind of midgame nerf for Terran accompanied by a lategame buff.
The reason I suggest changing Terran instead of Protoss is that Protoss would need to be drastically altered to even things out, because they have many options in the lategame, all of which are similarly very difficult to stop. High Templars, Colossi, Archons, and perhaps Chargelots would need tweaking which would probably screw up PvZ and even screw up midgame PvT. So basically Terran is the one that most likely needs a change.
It sounds like a T3 buff and T2 nerf would be pretty good...
Maybe a small reduction in Banshee firing rate would make them not so good for allins, while still retaining the ability to 2-shot workers. In most harassment roles they don't even shoot constantly, so that could be alright. Alternatively, an increase in firing rate and a damage reduction could make those heavily armored Protoss units more resilent against Banshees, and 3 shotting workers wouldn't be so bad because it would be a quicker 3 shot. Banshees are hardly used in macro TvP, and exist mostly as DPS for allins.
Though there are MANY other options.
And then maybe Battlecruisers could be buffed, as I don't think they exist on any kind of balance tipping point... They're not seen as often as almost anyone would like to see them. And since the purpose of the buff would be to hurt Protoss T3, maybe Battlecruisers could come pre-packed with Behemoth Reactors? That would be pretty cool. Just make it a little more convenient to get Yamato out on the field.
Though again, there are many other options.
You know what else would be fucking cool? Fusion Core-researched Tech Reactors. Terran production is totally fine until the lategame, when it becomes objectively the shittiest. Two of everything! Noah's Ark Terran!
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EPT
