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On April 03 2012 07:35 Rassy wrote:you can mass banshees. Mass banshee beat annything the protoss can field on the ground. Most protoss still think they can simply mass stalker to counter but they are wrong!, these are your victems. Banshee>stalker and banshee counters robo, but at the same time it also requires a robo to be build wich is a huge waste. The only thing they loose to is protoss air , but once they go air you can start massing the 2 units wich hard counter protoss air, marines and thors!. SO: go barrack factory double starport and start massing, marines in bunkers to defend  Hmm it probably is not so easy lol but i do think mass banshee combined with marines at start is a relativly unexplored area Its basicly 1-1-1 but without the tanks and more banshees
This army composition gets smashed by either high templars or stalker/collossus. You seem to have an extremely low level understanding of the game. Mass banshees dont beat mass stalkers at all because it takes ages to mass banshees and stalkers are easily massable at any point in the game.
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On April 03 2012 07:35 Rassy wrote:you can mass banshees. Mass banshee beat annything the protoss can field on the ground. Most protoss still think they can simply mass stalker to counter but they are wrong!, these are your victems. Banshee>stalker and banshee counters robo, but at the same time it also requires a robo to be build wich is a huge waste. The only thing they loose to is protoss air , but once they go air you can start massing the 2 units wich hard counter protoss air, marines and thors!. SO: go barrack factory double starport and start massing, marines in bunkers to defend Hmm it probably is not so easy lol but i do think mass banshee combined with marines at start is a relativly unexplored area Its basicly 1-1-1 but without the tanks and more banshees
I'm sure your enemies in diamond feel the same way... any protoss above that would just storm / feedback you to death.
You cannot get out a sizable enough amount before protoss higher tech kicks in and you get hard countered. Not to mention if you just go pure marine into starport you are very vulnerable to 2 base all ins and colossus timings...
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On April 03 2012 07:35 Rassy wrote:you can mass banshees. Mass banshee beat annything the protoss can field on the ground. Most protoss still think they can simply mass stalker to counter but they are wrong!, these are your victems. Banshee>stalker and banshee counters robo, but at the same time it also requires a robo to be build wich is a huge waste. The only thing they loose to is protoss air , but once they go air you can start massing the 2 units wich hard counter protoss air, marines and thors!. SO: go barrack factory double starport and start massing, marines in bunkers to defend Hmm it probably is not so easy lol but i do think mass banshee combined with marines at start is a relativly unexplored area Its basicly 1-1-1 but without the tanks and more banshees
In all honesty and though I like banshees in my (mech) TvP compositions:
If you overdo it, he can just storm and feedback your banshees into the ground.
True, Protoss ground to air is not supersupplyefficient, but you simply can't use banshees like mutas, because they cant semidodge storms like mutas.
Theoretically BCs (instead of Marines) would be really good against Toss, but it seems close to impossible to switch into enough of them from current bio strategies
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On April 03 2012 07:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 07:35 Rassy wrote:you can mass banshees. Mass banshee beat annything the protoss can field on the ground. Most protoss still think they can simply mass stalker to counter but they are wrong!, these are your victems. Banshee>stalker and banshee counters robo, but at the same time it also requires a robo to be build wich is a huge waste. The only thing they loose to is protoss air , but once they go air you can start massing the 2 units wich hard counter protoss air, marines and thors!. SO: go barrack factory double starport and start massing, marines in bunkers to defend Hmm it probably is not so easy lol but i do think mass banshee combined with marines at start is a relativly unexplored area Its basicly 1-1-1 but without the tanks and more banshees In all honesty and though I like banshees in my (mech) TvP compositions: If you overdo it, he can just storm and feedback your banshees into the ground. True, Protoss ground to air is not supersupplyefficient, but you simply can't use banshees like mutas, because they cant semidodge storms like mutas. Theoretically BCs (instead of Marines) would be really good against Toss, but it seems close to impossible to switch into enough of them from current bio strategies
And you can actually mass Mutas once you have a spire and are not capped by production buildings but only larva. It takes ages to mass banshees though, even if you were to go 3 port banshee (lol) it would not even be time-efficient. (banshee build time : 60 seconds, so yeah..)
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On April 03 2012 07:35 Rassy wrote:you can mass banshees. Mass banshee beat annything the protoss can field on the ground. Most protoss still think they can simply mass stalker to counter but they are wrong!, these are your victems. Banshee>stalker and banshee counters robo, but at the same time it also requires a robo to be build wich is a huge waste. The only thing they loose to is protoss air , but once they go air you can start massing the 2 units wich hard counter protoss air, marines and thors!. SO: go barrack factory double starport and start massing, marines in bunkers to defend Hmm it probably is not so easy lol but i do think mass banshee combined with marines at start is a relativly unexplored area Its basicly 1-1-1 but without the tanks and more banshees
Ugh, that's the wrongest thing I have ever heard.
High Templars?
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Terran is a little bit harder to play, and I don't think it's very much fun. It's always disappointing when I get Terran when playing random.
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On April 03 2012 07:53 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 05:16 Instigata wrote:On April 03 2012 04:51 Ktk wrote:On April 03 2012 04:34 LavaLava wrote:On April 02 2012 19:55 Bommes wrote:On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate. Whining is all about group dynamics. Others say its impossible to win in TvX and everything is shit? Oh, I just had a losing streak on ladder? GUESS WHAT I WILL JUST QQ MY HEART OUT IN THE FORUMS. I don't see how the terran community should get more credibility than anyone else. Well, if there was a problem with TvP, who would complain? Zergs? I mean really. And the issue isn't so much that it's unplayable, because most Terrans admit that the early game is favored towards Terran, it's just that the lategame is very Protoss favored, and the culture of foreign Starcraft is such that if you win a game before 15 minutes you're a worthless scrubby cheesing faggot who can't play the game. I think Terran players are mad that the proper way to play TvP right now is risky attacks that makes everyone hate them irrationally. I mean, if their arguments don't gain credibility when the prevailing attitude is "make Terran worse in the early game so you can buff it in the lategame" I don't know what would. All Terrans should throw that ideology out the window. If they die early they deserved and you're smart for cutting the game short and not wasting time dealing with greedy players. I agree. I posted somewhere before how dumb it is that the only acceptable way to play this game is retarded. Building another base as your first building? 1 gate/rax into another base? People should go play farmville or simcity if they want to just build workers and bases. Hate the hate for 1base and even 2 base play. I agree as well. Every time I hear shit like "3 Base all in" I want to throw up. Although, when he says Terrans should throw that ideology out, he's right, but he makes it sound like it's just Terrans... while the other 75% of players are at least as likely to hold such biases towards short games and aggressive play. I think it's lame that Terran is essentially built as a more aggressive race right now, but all these people see aggression as 'dishonorable' and demand that Terrans wait until maxed 3/3 colossi before they try to kill a Protoss, for instance... which is a fucking stupid way to play unless you're top GM and can micro MMMGV with so few losses that you can actually overcome lategame warpins. Don't take that as whine, it's not meant to be, I'm just saying everyone knows it's easier to kill Protoss before they're powering critical masses of big ass splash units, which means the proper way to play is to hit sooner instead of later. I guess the point is that individual Terrans will either try to make it to the lategame and get shit for a lower winrate, or try to kill/damage earlier and get shit for being "all in". There's not really a way to play that pleases anybody. (so of course the proper response is to say fuck em and win games)
It's the ladder, you won't get anything from opponents ever, no matter what you play.
Examples: I go 2base roach vs toss: "fucking cheeser"
I go 3base roach/ling into muta vs toss: "muta abuser".
I go 2base muta vs a terran that tried to blindcounter ling/infestor by secretly massing banshees after expanding: "noob. noone plays mutas anymore, learn your race"
I go 3base mass ling low eco aggression vs Terran TLO style: "wtf man"
I go 3base macro vs Terran: "bunker more noob"
I go 2base muta with 4 standard spines: "yeah, build more crawlers noob" when his roach allin failed.
You will always get shit for what you do on the ladder. It's dumb, anoying and disrespects all thoughts you put into your strategy, but it doesnt make it true.
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On April 03 2012 08:03 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 07:35 Rassy wrote:you can mass banshees. Mass banshee beat annything the protoss can field on the ground. Most protoss still think they can simply mass stalker to counter but they are wrong!, these are your victems. Banshee>stalker and banshee counters robo, but at the same time it also requires a robo to be build wich is a huge waste. The only thing they loose to is protoss air , but once they go air you can start massing the 2 units wich hard counter protoss air, marines and thors!. SO: go barrack factory double starport and start massing, marines in bunkers to defend Hmm it probably is not so easy lol but i do think mass banshee combined with marines at start is a relativly unexplored area Its basicly 1-1-1 but without the tanks and more banshees Ugh, that's the wrongest thing I have ever heard. High Templars?
I thought about this earlier today. What if a Terran preemptively "drained" his Banshees' energy before engagements?
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On April 03 2012 07:35 Rassy wrote:you can mass banshees. Mass banshee beat annything the protoss can field on the ground. Most protoss still think they can simply mass stalker to counter but they are wrong!, these are your victems. Banshee>stalker and banshee counters robo, but at the same time it also requires a robo to be build wich is a huge waste. The only thing they loose to is protoss air , but once they go air you can start massing the 2 units wich hard counter protoss air, marines and thors!. SO: go barrack factory double starport and start massing, marines in bunkers to defend Hmm it probably is not so easy lol but i do think mass banshee combined with marines at start is a relativly unexplored area Its basicly 1-1-1 but without the tanks and more banshees
Someone did this to me the other day.
I always respond to banshees with a phoenix. I saw he was massing lot of banshees so i got ... 3 phoenix!
apart from that i got chargelot archon immortal with a few obs and annihilated him. The phoenix tore into the banshees, the chargelot immortal ripped apart the tank marine. Even if he killed off my phoenix my around army was so overwhelming that there was nothing he could do to stop my zealots killing off his base.
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On April 03 2012 08:18 BlueBoxSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 08:03 LavaLava wrote:On April 03 2012 07:35 Rassy wrote:you can mass banshees. Mass banshee beat annything the protoss can field on the ground. Most protoss still think they can simply mass stalker to counter but they are wrong!, these are your victems. Banshee>stalker and banshee counters robo, but at the same time it also requires a robo to be build wich is a huge waste. The only thing they loose to is protoss air , but once they go air you can start massing the 2 units wich hard counter protoss air, marines and thors!. SO: go barrack factory double starport and start massing, marines in bunkers to defend Hmm it probably is not so easy lol but i do think mass banshee combined with marines at start is a relativly unexplored area Its basicly 1-1-1 but without the tanks and more banshees Ugh, that's the wrongest thing I have ever heard. High Templars? I thought about this earlier today. What if a Terran preemptively "drained" his Banshees' energy before engagements?
That's the proper response to a high templar response to banshees, but without cloak they die really quickly. they can also be stormed and they are pretty slow.
And you can't really drain the thors without like, upgrading to strike cannon and targeting an scv, or using EMP.
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On April 03 2012 08:11 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 07:53 LavaLava wrote:On April 03 2012 05:16 Instigata wrote:On April 03 2012 04:51 Ktk wrote:On April 03 2012 04:34 LavaLava wrote:On April 02 2012 19:55 Bommes wrote:On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate. Whining is all about group dynamics. Others say its impossible to win in TvX and everything is shit? Oh, I just had a losing streak on ladder? GUESS WHAT I WILL JUST QQ MY HEART OUT IN THE FORUMS. I don't see how the terran community should get more credibility than anyone else. Well, if there was a problem with TvP, who would complain? Zergs? I mean really. And the issue isn't so much that it's unplayable, because most Terrans admit that the early game is favored towards Terran, it's just that the lategame is very Protoss favored, and the culture of foreign Starcraft is such that if you win a game before 15 minutes you're a worthless scrubby cheesing faggot who can't play the game. I think Terran players are mad that the proper way to play TvP right now is risky attacks that makes everyone hate them irrationally. I mean, if their arguments don't gain credibility when the prevailing attitude is "make Terran worse in the early game so you can buff it in the lategame" I don't know what would. All Terrans should throw that ideology out the window. If they die early they deserved and you're smart for cutting the game short and not wasting time dealing with greedy players. I agree. I posted somewhere before how dumb it is that the only acceptable way to play this game is retarded. Building another base as your first building? 1 gate/rax into another base? People should go play farmville or simcity if they want to just build workers and bases. Hate the hate for 1base and even 2 base play. I agree as well. Every time I hear shit like "3 Base all in" I want to throw up. Although, when he says Terrans should throw that ideology out, he's right, but he makes it sound like it's just Terrans... while the other 75% of players are at least as likely to hold such biases towards short games and aggressive play. I think it's lame that Terran is essentially built as a more aggressive race right now, but all these people see aggression as 'dishonorable' and demand that Terrans wait until maxed 3/3 colossi before they try to kill a Protoss, for instance... which is a fucking stupid way to play unless you're top GM and can micro MMMGV with so few losses that you can actually overcome lategame warpins. Don't take that as whine, it's not meant to be, I'm just saying everyone knows it's easier to kill Protoss before they're powering critical masses of big ass splash units, which means the proper way to play is to hit sooner instead of later. I guess the point is that individual Terrans will either try to make it to the lategame and get shit for a lower winrate, or try to kill/damage earlier and get shit for being "all in". There's not really a way to play that pleases anybody. (so of course the proper response is to say fuck em and win games) It's the ladder, you won't get anything from opponents ever, no matter what you play. Examples: I go 2base roach vs toss: "fucking cheeser" I go 3base roach/ling into muta vs toss: "muta abuser". I go 2base muta vs a terran that tried to blindcounter ling/infestor by secretly massing banshees after expanding: "noob. noone plays mutas anymore, learn your race" I go 3base mass ling low eco aggression vs Terran TLO style: "wtf man" I go 3base macro vs Terran: "bunker more noob" I go 2base muta with 4 standard spines: "yeah, build more crawlers noob" when his roach allin failed. You will always get shit for what you do on the ladder. It's dumb, anoying and disrespects all thoughts you put into your strategy, but it doesnt make it true.
A terran went 1 rax expand and then pushed out with his first 12 marines, lost all of them for free. He then whinged at me for just walking my army across the map and killing him instead of expanding. WTF?
Why would I expand when I know I'll be behind him economically, I have the army and tech advantage right now and he just lost most of his army.
I'd have to be a fucking moron to NOT just kill him.
People seem to forget that the objective of the game is to win.
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On April 03 2012 08:11 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 07:53 LavaLava wrote:On April 03 2012 05:16 Instigata wrote:On April 03 2012 04:51 Ktk wrote:On April 03 2012 04:34 LavaLava wrote:On April 02 2012 19:55 Bommes wrote:On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate. Whining is all about group dynamics. Others say its impossible to win in TvX and everything is shit? Oh, I just had a losing streak on ladder? GUESS WHAT I WILL JUST QQ MY HEART OUT IN THE FORUMS. I don't see how the terran community should get more credibility than anyone else. Well, if there was a problem with TvP, who would complain? Zergs? I mean really. And the issue isn't so much that it's unplayable, because most Terrans admit that the early game is favored towards Terran, it's just that the lategame is very Protoss favored, and the culture of foreign Starcraft is such that if you win a game before 15 minutes you're a worthless scrubby cheesing faggot who can't play the game. I think Terran players are mad that the proper way to play TvP right now is risky attacks that makes everyone hate them irrationally. I mean, if their arguments don't gain credibility when the prevailing attitude is "make Terran worse in the early game so you can buff it in the lategame" I don't know what would. All Terrans should throw that ideology out the window. If they die early they deserved and you're smart for cutting the game short and not wasting time dealing with greedy players. I agree. I posted somewhere before how dumb it is that the only acceptable way to play this game is retarded. Building another base as your first building? 1 gate/rax into another base? People should go play farmville or simcity if they want to just build workers and bases. Hate the hate for 1base and even 2 base play. I agree as well. Every time I hear shit like "3 Base all in" I want to throw up. Although, when he says Terrans should throw that ideology out, he's right, but he makes it sound like it's just Terrans... while the other 75% of players are at least as likely to hold such biases towards short games and aggressive play. I think it's lame that Terran is essentially built as a more aggressive race right now, but all these people see aggression as 'dishonorable' and demand that Terrans wait until maxed 3/3 colossi before they try to kill a Protoss, for instance... which is a fucking stupid way to play unless you're top GM and can micro MMMGV with so few losses that you can actually overcome lategame warpins. Don't take that as whine, it's not meant to be, I'm just saying everyone knows it's easier to kill Protoss before they're powering critical masses of big ass splash units, which means the proper way to play is to hit sooner instead of later. I guess the point is that individual Terrans will either try to make it to the lategame and get shit for a lower winrate, or try to kill/damage earlier and get shit for being "all in". There's not really a way to play that pleases anybody. (so of course the proper response is to say fuck em and win games) It's the ladder, you won't get anything from opponents ever, no matter what you play. Examples: I go 2base roach vs toss: "fucking cheeser" I go 3base roach/ling into muta vs toss: "muta abuser". I go 2base muta vs a terran that tried to blindcounter ling/infestor by secretly massing banshees after expanding: "noob. noone plays mutas anymore, learn your race" I go 3base mass ling low eco aggression vs Terran TLO style: "wtf man" I go 3base macro vs Terran: "bunker more noob" I go 2base muta with 4 standard spines: "yeah, build more crawlers noob" when his roach allin failed. You will always get shit for what you do on the ladder. It's dumb, anoying and disrespects all thoughts you put into your strategy, but it doesnt make it true.
I'm less talking about people on the ladder and more about people in the general community judging Terrans for their play. That could even explain the lower number of Terran streamers and even lower number of Terran personalities, because people go "oh, he's just a fucking noob running allins"
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On April 03 2012 09:52 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 08:11 Big J wrote:On April 03 2012 07:53 LavaLava wrote:On April 03 2012 05:16 Instigata wrote:On April 03 2012 04:51 Ktk wrote:On April 03 2012 04:34 LavaLava wrote:On April 02 2012 19:55 Bommes wrote:On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate. Whining is all about group dynamics. Others say its impossible to win in TvX and everything is shit? Oh, I just had a losing streak on ladder? GUESS WHAT I WILL JUST QQ MY HEART OUT IN THE FORUMS. I don't see how the terran community should get more credibility than anyone else. Well, if there was a problem with TvP, who would complain? Zergs? I mean really. And the issue isn't so much that it's unplayable, because most Terrans admit that the early game is favored towards Terran, it's just that the lategame is very Protoss favored, and the culture of foreign Starcraft is such that if you win a game before 15 minutes you're a worthless scrubby cheesing faggot who can't play the game. I think Terran players are mad that the proper way to play TvP right now is risky attacks that makes everyone hate them irrationally. I mean, if their arguments don't gain credibility when the prevailing attitude is "make Terran worse in the early game so you can buff it in the lategame" I don't know what would. All Terrans should throw that ideology out the window. If they die early they deserved and you're smart for cutting the game short and not wasting time dealing with greedy players. I agree. I posted somewhere before how dumb it is that the only acceptable way to play this game is retarded. Building another base as your first building? 1 gate/rax into another base? People should go play farmville or simcity if they want to just build workers and bases. Hate the hate for 1base and even 2 base play. I agree as well. Every time I hear shit like "3 Base all in" I want to throw up. Although, when he says Terrans should throw that ideology out, he's right, but he makes it sound like it's just Terrans... while the other 75% of players are at least as likely to hold such biases towards short games and aggressive play. I think it's lame that Terran is essentially built as a more aggressive race right now, but all these people see aggression as 'dishonorable' and demand that Terrans wait until maxed 3/3 colossi before they try to kill a Protoss, for instance... which is a fucking stupid way to play unless you're top GM and can micro MMMGV with so few losses that you can actually overcome lategame warpins. Don't take that as whine, it's not meant to be, I'm just saying everyone knows it's easier to kill Protoss before they're powering critical masses of big ass splash units, which means the proper way to play is to hit sooner instead of later. I guess the point is that individual Terrans will either try to make it to the lategame and get shit for a lower winrate, or try to kill/damage earlier and get shit for being "all in". There's not really a way to play that pleases anybody. (so of course the proper response is to say fuck em and win games) It's the ladder, you won't get anything from opponents ever, no matter what you play. Examples: I go 2base roach vs toss: "fucking cheeser" I go 3base roach/ling into muta vs toss: "muta abuser". I go 2base muta vs a terran that tried to blindcounter ling/infestor by secretly massing banshees after expanding: "noob. noone plays mutas anymore, learn your race" I go 3base mass ling low eco aggression vs Terran TLO style: "wtf man" I go 3base macro vs Terran: "bunker more noob" I go 2base muta with 4 standard spines: "yeah, build more crawlers noob" when his roach allin failed. You will always get shit for what you do on the ladder. It's dumb, anoying and disrespects all thoughts you put into your strategy, but it doesnt make it true. I'm less talking about people on the ladder and more about people in the general community judging Terrans for their play. That could even explain the lower number of Terran streamers and even lower number of Terran personalities, because people go "oh, he's just a fucking noob running allins"
Personally I think the community is more accepting of all-ins now as long as there is a trigger.
Look at MC. More and more people are seeing that MC scouts something and then make a decision to go all in based off that.
If I saw a terran all in after scouting a 1 gate expand (or even double expand) I'll be applauding them!
It's when I see players like Maru just randomly decide to all in that I start thinking terran is a shitty race.
Blind all-ins reinforce that no strategy is required.
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Meh, T's will continue to struggle until HotS where they can get rewarded for macroing without being forced to trade units constantly. Players have created an 'illusion' that Terran is versatile but it's been proven that if you're a Terran and you want to win at the very highest level - the option of playing passively against P and Z is completely and utterly a way to lose.
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On April 03 2012 11:20 cozzE wrote:
Meh, T's will continue to struggle until HotS where they can get rewarded for macroing without being forced to trade units constantly. Players have created an 'illusion' that Terran is versatile but it's been proven that if you're a Terran and you want to win at the very highest level - the option of playing passively against P and Z is completely and utterly a way to lose.
Why would you want to trade units in TvZ?
Trading is exactly what Zerg wants to do. Zerglings vs bio and roaches vs mech. If you keep trading vs Z you are giving him a free win.
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You're misconstruing what I said. Terran will constantly have to keep the P/Z in check as the game progresses. If he/she does not, the game snowballs out of control. What I'm saying and what you're saying are two completely different things. In your context, you mean 'trading' in the sense that Zerg will ONLY trade when they have the army to take on what Terran has. Other than that, they will be sitting at home droning. A terran cannot do the same unless their opponent is at a much lower skill level.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 03 2012 07:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 07:35 Rassy wrote:you can mass banshees. Mass banshee beat annything the protoss can field on the ground. Most protoss still think they can simply mass stalker to counter but they are wrong!, these are your victems. Banshee>stalker and banshee counters robo, but at the same time it also requires a robo to be build wich is a huge waste. The only thing they loose to is protoss air , but once they go air you can start massing the 2 units wich hard counter protoss air, marines and thors!. SO: go barrack factory double starport and start massing, marines in bunkers to defend Hmm it probably is not so easy lol but i do think mass banshee combined with marines at start is a relativly unexplored area Its basicly 1-1-1 but without the tanks and more banshees In all honesty and though I like banshees in my (mech) TvP compositions: If you overdo it, he can just storm and feedback your banshees into the ground. True, Protoss ground to air is not supersupplyefficient, but you simply can't use banshees like mutas, because they cant semidodge storms like mutas. Theoretically BCs (instead of Marines) would be really good against Toss, but it seems close to impossible to switch into enough of them from current bio strategies
Ryung has shown some pretty interesting late game BC switches in TvP that have worked out well, mixing in 2-3 with his bio force. They really force an overreaction from toss to deal with them, and their dps is pretty good once they've had upgrades (and you upgrade air weapons anyway so your vikings can deal with 3/3 colossi).
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United States7483 Posts
On April 03 2012 11:26 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 11:20 cozzE wrote:
Meh, T's will continue to struggle until HotS where they can get rewarded for macroing without being forced to trade units constantly. Players have created an 'illusion' that Terran is versatile but it's been proven that if you're a Terran and you want to win at the very highest level - the option of playing passively against P and Z is completely and utterly a way to lose. Why would you want to trade units in TvZ? Trading is exactly what Zerg wants to do. Zerglings vs bio and roaches vs mech. If you keep trading vs Z you are giving him a free win.
You want to trade highly cost effectively. The entire reason terran's do marine/tank pushes on a regular basis is to force zerg into a bad trade, they don't usually expect to win the game straight up. Being able to force units instead of drones, and being able to trade extremely efficiently is all they need to win.
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On April 03 2012 11:36 cozzE wrote:
You're misconstruing what I said. Terran will constantly have to keep the P/Z in check as the game progresses. If he/she does not, the game snowballs out of control. What I'm saying and what you're saying are two completely different things. In your context, you mean 'trading' in the sense that Zerg will ONLY trade when they have the army to take on what Terran has. Other than that, they will be sitting at home droning. A terran cannot do the same unless their opponent is at a much lower skill level.
As for playing passively, especially on "lower levels", just go mech. It destroys at "lower levels". And I don´t see what you mean by my context. I meant trading as in trading units for units. When both players lose units because they fight each other, that is what I mean by trading, and it´s not what Terran wants to do vs Zerg. The only good trade is marines and vikings for brood lords and infestors, but that´s situational, and lategame...
You want to trade highly cost effectively. The entire reason terran's do marine/tank pushes on a regular basis is to force zerg into a bad trade, they don't usually expect to win the game straight up. Being able to force units instead of drones, and being able to trade extremely efficiently is all they need to win.
Yes, forcing Zerg to fight with lair units before he has hive is good, because it won´t be cost effective for Zerg, but cozzE made it seem like Terran has to do the same thing in TvZ that they have to do in TvP, which I don´t think is true. In TvP, the more units there are on both sides, the better it is for Protoss. In TvZ, the more units there are, the better it is for Terran, but then Zerg gets hive and everything changes. So you want to wait long enough to gather a "ball" and reach critical mass where Terran units become more cost effective than Zerg units (Few marines and tanks vs few zerglings is good for Zerg, lots of marines and tanks vs lots of zerglings is bad for Zerg) but you can´t wait too long, because then you will let Zerg get to hive without forcing a fight, while you made units designed for the midgame. You have to start preparing for the lategame in time, with vikings and sometimes ravens and / or ghosts, but if you can manage to force a lair fight, that´s good too. PvZ is quite similar. Stalkers, colossi, and immortals are great in the midgame, but if you make lots of them without starting to prepare for the lategame in time, you will die to broodlords and infestors. (by preparing for the lategame I mean making archons and a mothership, and maybe templars too)
What I just described is nothing like TvP. In TvP you just want to attack attack attack, any even trade is good for you, since more units is always good for Protoss, and less units is always good for Terran. If you try to play like that vs Zerg you are just going to lose small army after small army to zerglings.
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