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On April 02 2012 12:48 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 12:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 02 2012 10:28 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting. Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you That's utterly ridiculous. Scanning to snipe an observer is always worth it, for several reasons: 1. Protoss players want to make as few observers as possible, and killing them forces more. This delays immortals, colossi, and warp prisms. 2. Observers are the only way Protoss can scout your base, besides hallucinated phoenixes, but sentries are only really produced in the early-mid game. Furthermore, only observers can truly keep tabs on your army properly when it's time to position our army for engagement (whereas you have units that are actually fast and mobile, like a stimmed free unit or a flying unit). 3. By the time you're 10-15 minutes into the game, you don't need to worry about falling behind economically anymore. MULEs are fantastic, you have multiple OCs, the worker counts are high enough where 2 workers won't make a difference, Protoss players have long since used any chrono boost on probes, and you should be scanning things anyway. Stopping your opponent from having information is just as important as you obtaining information. 4. We need observers in case of ghosts or banshees. This is not an option; this is a necessity for us, as both cloaked units will completely destroy us (whether used for harrassment or in a main army). Always always always kill our observers. Oh you watch Day 9 and take it as gospel? Lol no wonder you are so misguided, watch someone that actually PLAYS the game maybe youll learn more
I don't even know what the hell that means (you're wrong on so many levels), but I don't appreciate you simply dismissing my post with a one-liner full of nonsense. How about you actually post a reasonable response directed towards my arguments?
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On April 02 2012 12:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 12:48 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 12:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 02 2012 10:28 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting. Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you That's utterly ridiculous. Scanning to snipe an observer is always worth it, for several reasons: 1. Protoss players want to make as few observers as possible, and killing them forces more. This delays immortals, colossi, and warp prisms. 2. Observers are the only way Protoss can scout your base, besides hallucinated phoenixes, but sentries are only really produced in the early-mid game. Furthermore, only observers can truly keep tabs on your army properly when it's time to position our army for engagement (whereas you have units that are actually fast and mobile, like a stimmed free unit or a flying unit). 3. By the time you're 10-15 minutes into the game, you don't need to worry about falling behind economically anymore. MULEs are fantastic, you have multiple OCs, the worker counts are high enough where 2 workers won't make a difference, Protoss players have long since used any chrono boost on probes, and you should be scanning things anyway. Stopping your opponent from having information is just as important as you obtaining information. 4. We need observers in case of ghosts or banshees. This is not an option; this is a necessity for us, as both cloaked units will completely destroy us (whether used for harrassment or in a main army). Always always always kill our observers. Oh you watch Day 9 and take it as gospel? Lol no wonder you are so misguided, watch someone that actually PLAYS the game maybe youll learn more I don't even know what the hell that means (you're wrong on so many levels), but I don't appreciate you simply dismissing my post with a one-liner full of nonsense. How about you actually post a reasonable response directed towards my arguments?
You tried to argue the importance of observers to protoss, I was arguing the importance of MULEs to terran, I said MULEs are essential EARLY game, not MID-LATE game... I mean, the fucking unit take 27 seconds to build, it costs 25/75, not a game breaking investment in time OR resources, oh bummer you got one sniped, guess what? you just became 3 probes further ahead in economy due to that lost MULE. By saying that observers are so important to protoss you are basically saying scouting is very important to protoss, as if the other two races dont need to scout as well, which is misguided.
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On April 02 2012 13:15 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 12:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 02 2012 12:48 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 12:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 02 2012 10:28 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting. Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you That's utterly ridiculous. Scanning to snipe an observer is always worth it, for several reasons: 1. Protoss players want to make as few observers as possible, and killing them forces more. This delays immortals, colossi, and warp prisms. 2. Observers are the only way Protoss can scout your base, besides hallucinated phoenixes, but sentries are only really produced in the early-mid game. Furthermore, only observers can truly keep tabs on your army properly when it's time to position our army for engagement (whereas you have units that are actually fast and mobile, like a stimmed free unit or a flying unit). 3. By the time you're 10-15 minutes into the game, you don't need to worry about falling behind economically anymore. MULEs are fantastic, you have multiple OCs, the worker counts are high enough where 2 workers won't make a difference, Protoss players have long since used any chrono boost on probes, and you should be scanning things anyway. Stopping your opponent from having information is just as important as you obtaining information. 4. We need observers in case of ghosts or banshees. This is not an option; this is a necessity for us, as both cloaked units will completely destroy us (whether used for harrassment or in a main army). Always always always kill our observers. Oh you watch Day 9 and take it as gospel? Lol no wonder you are so misguided, watch someone that actually PLAYS the game maybe youll learn more I don't even know what the hell that means (you're wrong on so many levels), but I don't appreciate you simply dismissing my post with a one-liner full of nonsense. How about you actually post a reasonable response directed towards my arguments? You tried to argue the importance of observers to protoss, I was arguing the importance of MULEs to terran, I said MULEs are essential EARLY game, not MID-LATE game... I mean, the fucking unit take 27 seconds to build, it costs 25/75, not a game breaking investment in time OR resources, oh bummer you got one sniped, guess what? you just became 3 probes further ahead in economy due to that lost MULE. By saying that observers are so important to protoss you are basically saying scouting is very important to protoss, as if the other two races dont need to scout as well, which is misguided.
...And seeing as how I covered every single problem there (economy, usefulness of MULEs, early vs. later stages of the game, etc. ...and naturally never once implied that Zerg or Terran players don't need to scout, although I did point out how important it is to deny scouting), I'm going to assume that it's still April 1st where you live, and just ignore your ridiculous dismissive comments.
Surely other people will take my post seriously. Enjoy your night.
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On April 02 2012 13:15 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 12:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 02 2012 12:48 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 12:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 02 2012 10:28 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting. Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you That's utterly ridiculous. Scanning to snipe an observer is always worth it, for several reasons: 1. Protoss players want to make as few observers as possible, and killing them forces more. This delays immortals, colossi, and warp prisms. 2. Observers are the only way Protoss can scout your base, besides hallucinated phoenixes, but sentries are only really produced in the early-mid game. Furthermore, only observers can truly keep tabs on your army properly when it's time to position our army for engagement (whereas you have units that are actually fast and mobile, like a stimmed free unit or a flying unit). 3. By the time you're 10-15 minutes into the game, you don't need to worry about falling behind economically anymore. MULEs are fantastic, you have multiple OCs, the worker counts are high enough where 2 workers won't make a difference, Protoss players have long since used any chrono boost on probes, and you should be scanning things anyway. Stopping your opponent from having information is just as important as you obtaining information. 4. We need observers in case of ghosts or banshees. This is not an option; this is a necessity for us, as both cloaked units will completely destroy us (whether used for harrassment or in a main army). Always always always kill our observers. Oh you watch Day 9 and take it as gospel? Lol no wonder you are so misguided, watch someone that actually PLAYS the game maybe youll learn more I don't even know what the hell that means (you're wrong on so many levels), but I don't appreciate you simply dismissing my post with a one-liner full of nonsense. How about you actually post a reasonable response directed towards my arguments? You tried to argue the importance of observers to protoss, I was arguing the importance of MULEs to terran, I said MULEs are essential EARLY game, not MID-LATE game... I mean, the fucking unit take 27 seconds to build, it costs 25/75, not a game breaking investment in time OR resources, oh bummer you got one sniped, guess what? you just became 3 probes further ahead in economy due to that lost MULE. By saying that observers are so important to protoss you are basically saying scouting is very important to protoss, as if the other two races dont need to scout as well, which is misguided.
This is so dumb.
In SC2 information matters more than anything else. I can be behind in economy but if i know when you move out i can harass, if i know when you're pushing i can cut probes and make army. if i know your composition i can know how to engage you, while you're un-sieged or behind FF's. Do I buy time or push out. These are the decisions which win or lose you games. You're marauder heavy, ok i'll chrono more immortals, you're marine heavy, cancel that immortal and tech to colossus. colossus isn't ready, retreat to the main and FF the ramp. All of this, ALL of it is based on information that obs see over time, not in the few seconds they have to scout your composition before you scan and kill my obs.
Knowing what units to warp in and when vs when to get upgrades or unlock another bit of tech is what playing protoss is all about. You'll never see a more scared, fingers crossed protoss than one who just saw a huge marine force at his opponents base while waiting for that robo bay to finish and those first 2 colossus to pop.
There is nothing you can do apart from cross your fingers and hope to fucking god that he doesn't push in the next 30 seconds.
It's exactly the same when a protoss player realises that a zerg player is just about to switch to mutas. cannon cannon STALKERS *hope to fucking god i get another round of stalkers before those mutas arrive*
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Couple of fucking ill informed retards trying to plug a lightbulb in, have fun with that, well all be watching and laughing
User was banned for this post.
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Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate.
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On April 02 2012 14:35 XquisiteWretch wrote:
Couple of fucking ill informed retards trying to plug a lightbulb in, have fun with that, well all be watching and laughing
I'll try to be as friendly as possible but I still feel that the truth needs to be spoken here. You write down your opinion and state it as the truth, calling out others uninformed or stupid. Let me tell you one thing: Its you who is not very well informed about the match up it seems.
Your way of posting is offensive and makes you look like a douche, even if you would like to help, you are not helping. Other people giving reason behind their opinions and you simply write it off as bullshit. I guess you won't be part of Teamliquid for a long time if you behave like this.
To the observer-issue. First of all, its up to the Terran player to make the Protoss not spend chrono on probes all the time. You have the ability to pressure and in Korea you see how much Terran is in the head of Protoss. If you try to do pressure on EU ladder, you will often end up getting crushed because they really like 1 gate expansion into 4 gate for example, this doesn't happen too often in Korea.
The Korean Terrans are first of all very good in their control and secondly are insanely good in:
a) hiding information
b) giving false information/impression
This means, even if the Terran couldn't attack, to the Protoss it can look like he could. If you can create such a feeling for Protoss, he needs to be on the backfoot.
As soon as your expansion is up, its always useful to snipe the observer. There are a lot of options what Terran can do and with the current state of the game (aka fast 3rd base Protoss) its urgent for Protoss to keep an eye on your army / movement. If you can prevent Protoss from spotting you army movement, you are good to go.
He cannot know if your whole army hits the 3rd, or if its only have of it while the other half is heading towards your main. Obviously if you don't plan on moving out and just stay in your main, w ell its up to you to snipe the observer. Personally I'd recommend sniping it anyways, but thats your choice.
Critical nonetheless - if you move out, don't have an observer over your army. Sniping the observer and leaving a MULE behind basically is obviously going to hurt your income a bit, but the information and openings you get through denying information is superior to that income boost of 1 mule.
You could simply write everything off I said as 'sometimes information is worth more than minerals' but I guess you will simply write it off as bullshit. Sometimes you will find Terrans dying with 6000/4000 banked, why? Too much economy that is not needed, not enough higher tech units (ghost) resulting in an inferior army that melts against Protoss OR Terran on even-footing with Protoss but never be able to get any agression cost-efficient, because all attempts are shut down because the Protoss knew about them (obs, proxy pylon, watch tower) and Terran dying because he threw away units due to that.
Maybe you should consider that some players out there are capable of understanding how essential the mule is, but they are not ignorant and know the value of information. GLHF.
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On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate.
This argument is really weird. So there's less whine from terrans in the past so that should give credibility when they whine now? Cmon. Bnet forums had complains from all races and on TL people cried about protoss and zerg more or less dissapearing from code S/A for a while, it's a huge difference.
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On April 02 2012 14:05 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 13:15 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 12:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 02 2012 12:48 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 12:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 02 2012 10:28 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting. Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you That's utterly ridiculous. Scanning to snipe an observer is always worth it, for several reasons: 1. Protoss players want to make as few observers as possible, and killing them forces more. This delays immortals, colossi, and warp prisms. 2. Observers are the only way Protoss can scout your base, besides hallucinated phoenixes, but sentries are only really produced in the early-mid game. Furthermore, only observers can truly keep tabs on your army properly when it's time to position our army for engagement (whereas you have units that are actually fast and mobile, like a stimmed free unit or a flying unit). 3. By the time you're 10-15 minutes into the game, you don't need to worry about falling behind economically anymore. MULEs are fantastic, you have multiple OCs, the worker counts are high enough where 2 workers won't make a difference, Protoss players have long since used any chrono boost on probes, and you should be scanning things anyway. Stopping your opponent from having information is just as important as you obtaining information. 4. We need observers in case of ghosts or banshees. This is not an option; this is a necessity for us, as both cloaked units will completely destroy us (whether used for harrassment or in a main army). Always always always kill our observers. Oh you watch Day 9 and take it as gospel? Lol no wonder you are so misguided, watch someone that actually PLAYS the game maybe youll learn more I don't even know what the hell that means (you're wrong on so many levels), but I don't appreciate you simply dismissing my post with a one-liner full of nonsense. How about you actually post a reasonable response directed towards my arguments? You tried to argue the importance of observers to protoss, I was arguing the importance of MULEs to terran, I said MULEs are essential EARLY game, not MID-LATE game... I mean, the fucking unit take 27 seconds to build, it costs 25/75, not a game breaking investment in time OR resources, oh bummer you got one sniped, guess what? you just became 3 probes further ahead in economy due to that lost MULE. By saying that observers are so important to protoss you are basically saying scouting is very important to protoss, as if the other two races dont need to scout as well, which is misguided. This is so dumb. In SC2 information matters more than anything else. I can be behind in economy but if i know when you move out i can harass, if i know when you're pushing i can cut probes and make army. if i know your composition i can know how to engage you, while you're un-sieged or behind FF's. Do I buy time or push out. These are the decisions which win or lose you games. You're marauder heavy, ok i'll chrono more immortals, you're marine heavy, cancel that immortal and tech to colossus. colossus isn't ready, retreat to the main and FF the ramp. All of this, ALL of it is based on information that obs see over time, not in the few seconds they have to scout your composition before you scan and kill my obs. Knowing what units to warp in and when vs when to get upgrades or unlock another bit of tech is what playing protoss is all about. You'll never see a more scared, fingers crossed protoss than one who just saw a huge marine force at his opponents base while waiting for that robo bay to finish and those first 2 colossus to pop. There is nothing you can do apart from cross your fingers and hope to fucking god that he doesn't push in the next 30 seconds.It's exactly the same when a protoss player realises that a zerg player is just about to switch to mutas. cannon cannon STALKERS *hope to fucking god i get another round of stalkers before those mutas arrive*
Nothing except forcefields and more forcefields. It seems that the SEA server is vastly different from the EU server. Especially as you seem to believe that the protoss is the one to react to the terran composition through dilligent scouting. Yes, if you didn't catch your opponent was opening one base AND you opened fast expand AND you chose to go 2 gas with many sentries then the ghost/marine timing (that I have seen last 8 months ago) kills you IF you fail to pre-split you sentries around the ramp/choke so the 2 ghosts EMP all of them TWICE.
You standard scouting probe can give you the exact time when to expand. No gas - 1 gate FE. Gas, maybe get another production facility to be safe. When your first stalker is out, you can pretty much confirm if they have expanded by poking the front. In contrast, the speed of stalkers means you cannot confirm if toss has expanded if you are not tricky to sneak past that stalker. Yes, you can scan but that cripples you. As soon as you are both on two base, it's smooth sailing for the toss as the toss can pretty much choose how to proceed and it's up to the terran to scout and adapt or die.
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On April 02 2012 16:10 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:35 XquisiteWretch wrote:
Couple of fucking ill informed retards trying to plug a lightbulb in, have fun with that, well all be watching and laughing + Show Spoiler +
I'll try to be as friendly as possible but I still feel that the truth needs to be spoken here. You write down your opinion and state it as the truth, calling out others uninformed or stupid. Let me tell you one thing: Its you who is not very well informed about the match up it seems.
Your way of posting is offensive and makes you look like a douche, even if you would like to help, you are not helping. Other people giving reason behind their opinions and you simply write it off as bullshit. I guess you won't be part of Teamliquid for a long time if you behave like this.
To the observer-issue. First of all, its up to the Terran player to make the Protoss not spend chrono on probes all the time. You have the ability to pressure and in Korea you see how much Terran is in the head of Protoss. If you try to do pressure on EU ladder, you will often end up getting crushed because they really like 1 gate expansion into 4 gate for example, this doesn't happen too often in Korea.
The Korean Terrans are first of all very good in their control and secondly are insanely good in:
a) hiding information
b) giving false information/impression
This means, even if the Terran couldn't attack, to the Protoss it can look like he could. If you can create such a feeling for Protoss, he needs to be on the backfoot.
As soon as your expansion is up, its always useful to snipe the observer. There are a lot of options what Terran can do and with the current state of the game (aka fast 3rd base Protoss) its urgent for Protoss to keep an eye on your army / movement. If you can prevent Protoss from spotting you army movement, you are good to go.
He cannot know if your whole army hits the 3rd, or if its only have of it while the other half is heading towards your main. Obviously if you don't plan on moving out and just stay in your main, w ell its up to you to snipe the observer. Personally I'd recommend sniping it anyways, but thats your choice.
Critical nonetheless - if you move out, don't have an observer over your army. Sniping the observer and leaving a MULE behind basically is obviously going to hurt your income a bit, but the information and openings you get through denying information is superior to that income boost of 1 mule.
You could simply write everything off I said as 'sometimes information is worth more than minerals' but I guess you will simply write it off as bullshit. Sometimes you will find Terrans dying with 6000/4000 banked, why? Too much economy that is not needed, not enough higher tech units (ghost) resulting in an inferior army that melts against Protoss OR Terran on even-footing with Protoss but never be able to get any agression cost-efficient, because all attempts are shut down because the Protoss knew about them (obs, proxy pylon, watch tower) and Terran dying because he threw away units due to that.
Maybe you should consider that some players out there are capable of understanding how essential the mule is, but they are not ignorant and know the value of information. GLHF.
Catching observers is always great, no doubt. But how often do you kill observers before they have scouted necessary info? Only if toss bee-lines them straight to your base in which case he deserves the utter fail. Mind games work until obs are out and then the toss has a pretty clear picture, especially if he does NOT go colossus.
The reason you see Terrans getting killed with a huge bank is simple: As soon and your production is camped you are dead no matter the resources. Protoss just warps in at any not-camped pylon to rally. It has nothing to do with 'too much economy'. Especially as the debate was using scans to kill obs EARLY GAME, which everyone ignored. I still think it's worth to scan, but I feel the advantage is more of the psychological kind.
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On April 02 2012 16:55 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 16:10 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 02 2012 14:35 XquisiteWretch wrote:
Couple of fucking ill informed retards trying to plug a lightbulb in, have fun with that, well all be watching and laughing + Show Spoiler +
I'll try to be as friendly as possible but I still feel that the truth needs to be spoken here. You write down your opinion and state it as the truth, calling out others uninformed or stupid. Let me tell you one thing: Its you who is not very well informed about the match up it seems.
Your way of posting is offensive and makes you look like a douche, even if you would like to help, you are not helping. Other people giving reason behind their opinions and you simply write it off as bullshit. I guess you won't be part of Teamliquid for a long time if you behave like this.
To the observer-issue. First of all, its up to the Terran player to make the Protoss not spend chrono on probes all the time. You have the ability to pressure and in Korea you see how much Terran is in the head of Protoss. If you try to do pressure on EU ladder, you will often end up getting crushed because they really like 1 gate expansion into 4 gate for example, this doesn't happen too often in Korea.
The Korean Terrans are first of all very good in their control and secondly are insanely good in:
a) hiding information
b) giving false information/impression
This means, even if the Terran couldn't attack, to the Protoss it can look like he could. If you can create such a feeling for Protoss, he needs to be on the backfoot.
As soon as your expansion is up, its always useful to snipe the observer. There are a lot of options what Terran can do and with the current state of the game (aka fast 3rd base Protoss) its urgent for Protoss to keep an eye on your army / movement. If you can prevent Protoss from spotting you army movement, you are good to go.
He cannot know if your whole army hits the 3rd, or if its only have of it while the other half is heading towards your main. Obviously if you don't plan on moving out and just stay in your main, w ell its up to you to snipe the observer. Personally I'd recommend sniping it anyways, but thats your choice.
Critical nonetheless - if you move out, don't have an observer over your army. Sniping the observer and leaving a MULE behind basically is obviously going to hurt your income a bit, but the information and openings you get through denying information is superior to that income boost of 1 mule.
You could simply write everything off I said as 'sometimes information is worth more than minerals' but I guess you will simply write it off as bullshit. Sometimes you will find Terrans dying with 6000/4000 banked, why? Too much economy that is not needed, not enough higher tech units (ghost) resulting in an inferior army that melts against Protoss OR Terran on even-footing with Protoss but never be able to get any agression cost-efficient, because all attempts are shut down because the Protoss knew about them (obs, proxy pylon, watch tower) and Terran dying because he threw away units due to that.
Maybe you should consider that some players out there are capable of understanding how essential the mule is, but they are not ignorant and know the value of information. GLHF.
Catching observers is always great, no doubt. But how often do you kill observers before they have scouted necessary info? Only if toss bee-lines them straight to your base in which case he deserves the utter fail. Mind games work until obs are out and then the toss has a pretty clear picture, especially if he does NOT go colossus. The reason you see Terrans getting killed with a huge bank is simple: As soon and your production is camped you are dead no matter the resources. Protoss just warps in at any not-camped pylon to rally. It has nothing to do with 'too much economy'. Especially as the debate was using scans to kill obs EARLY GAME, which everyone ignored. I still think it's worth to scan, but I feel the advantage is more of the psychological kind.
The Protoss scouting my base is the last thing I'm actually worried about, especially in the standard fast expansion into bio game. I would be a lot more stressed if I were to pull a 3 barracks ghost push after expansion. As I said, army movement and drops are critical against Protoss, you need to deny the observer over your army. Leave it there and you will cut the options you have to bare minimum.
Terrans die because they build too much economy that is not needed against Protoss. You can replace economy with mules (more orbitals) and you can replace weaker units with better units (ghost). Since usually you are not cost-efficient against Protoss, you need a superior army supply -> less scvs.
Less scvs are an option because mules make up for it. Replace marauders and marines with ghosts, so you have manly ghosts and less marauder/marine forces. With good upgrades you'll have a superior army now, one that can actually stand a fight against Protoss. Banked ressources, as you mentioned are meaningless against Protoss if you cannot spend them after losing the fight.
Against a huge ghost army, Protoss cannot easily press the issue and walk over you, just because your army is way stronger than the usual marine/marauder 'standard eu-master Terran' army. So here my question to you: Why build an economy that leads to you banking enormous amount of ressources, when you can have an economy thats good enough to replenish lost units and have your production running without banking too much?
You will always bank stuff, maxed out that is, but with 75-80 scvs and 3-6 mules on the field, you will be banking money even when producing off 10 barracks.
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On April 02 2012 16:42 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate. This argument is really weird. So there's less whine from terrans in the past so that should give credibility when they whine now? Cmon. Bnet forums had complains from all races and on TL people cried about protoss and zerg more or less dissapearing from code S/A for a while, it's a huge difference.
What I'm trying to say is that this wave of Terrans complaining about the state of the game coincides with a shrinking Terran player base as well as a string of balance changes unfavorable to Terran (the most recent of which had little support even among non-Terrans, and went through untested), and Terran has a history of complaining somewhat less.
To answer your question... of course? I didn't say believe it blindly, just respect it slightly more. Of course non-complainers have more credibility than chronic complainers when they make a complaint.
It just kind of seems like the attitude of "eh, it's fine someone will eventually figure it out" is much more present in the discussion of Terran.
The biggest general gripe by Zerg players for a long, long time was "I feel like I have to severely outplay my opponent because I'm Zerg, things must change", but now we are hearing "Oh, Terran is just the harder race, and that's how it's supposed to be."
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On April 02 2012 17:54 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 16:42 karpo wrote:On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate. This argument is really weird. So there's less whine from terrans in the past so that should give credibility when they whine now? Cmon. Bnet forums had complains from all races and on TL people cried about protoss and zerg more or less dissapearing from code S/A for a while, it's a huge difference. What I'm trying to say is that this wave of Terrans complaining about the state of the game coincides with a shrinking Terran player base as well as a string of balance changes unfavorable to Terran (the most recent of which had little support even among non-Terrans, and went through untested), and Terran has a history of complaining somewhat less. To answer your question... of course? I didn't say believe it blindly, just respect it slightly more. Of course non-complainers have more credibility than chronic complainers when they make a complaint. It just kind of seems like the attitude of "eh, it's fine someone will eventually figure it out" is much more present in the discussion of Terran. The biggest general gripe by Zerg players for a long, long time was "I feel like I have to severely outplay my opponent because I'm Zerg, things must change", but now we are hearing "Oh, Terran is just the harder race, and that's how it's supposed to be."
If terrans have a history of complaining less it's because they were the ones who fared best in the early stages of SC2. I've seen endless amounts of whine from terrans about protoss and zerg after that.
Back when zergs were talking about outplaying their opponents zergs were underrepresented in ALL leagues. Dipping below even 20% in some leagues. And at the same time zerg representation in the GSL was utterly horrible. There's a huge difference here.
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The current wave of complaining is caused by Blizzard on the same time overnerfing the T race, buffing the other race and also going 180 on their previous stance regarding ladder maps versus tournaments maps.
This combined have created this trend of complaining which is just as justified as previous zerg/protoss complaints were at the time.
Unfortunately there are always some (of all races) who just posted - this will be figured out, no need to change because all is fine, you just need to play better, it's your fault not you race's. Just remember 1v1 days and sad zealot complaints threads. At the time there were terrans to post in those threads. Now is Karpo's time to post in this thread.
All respect for the players who understand that there can be no smoke without a fire and try to find and propose solutions for this issue. Some can only work with an expo, but just like the phoenix buff versus tempests Hots' hope is Blizzard will also do something now until the overall buff of mech's in Hots.
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On April 02 2012 18:05 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 17:54 LavaLava wrote:On April 02 2012 16:42 karpo wrote:On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate. This argument is really weird. So there's less whine from terrans in the past so that should give credibility when they whine now? Cmon. Bnet forums had complains from all races and on TL people cried about protoss and zerg more or less dissapearing from code S/A for a while, it's a huge difference. What I'm trying to say is that this wave of Terrans complaining about the state of the game coincides with a shrinking Terran player base as well as a string of balance changes unfavorable to Terran (the most recent of which had little support even among non-Terrans, and went through untested), and Terran has a history of complaining somewhat less. To answer your question... of course? I didn't say believe it blindly, just respect it slightly more. Of course non-complainers have more credibility than chronic complainers when they make a complaint. It just kind of seems like the attitude of "eh, it's fine someone will eventually figure it out" is much more present in the discussion of Terran. The biggest general gripe by Zerg players for a long, long time was "I feel like I have to severely outplay my opponent because I'm Zerg, things must change", but now we are hearing "Oh, Terran is just the harder race, and that's how it's supposed to be." If terrans have a history of complaining less it's because they were the ones who fared best in the early stages of SC2. I've seen endless amounts of whine from terrans about protoss and zerg after that. Back when zergs were talking about outplaying their opponents zergs were underrepresented in ALL leagues. Dipping below even 20% in some leagues. And at the same time zerg representation in the GSL was utterly horrible. There's a huge difference here.
That's a difference in quantity, not in quality. I would never claim that Terran has been bludgeoned down to the shitty level of 1.0.0 Zerg, just that the gripes might be legitimate, especially considering that Terran used to be the most played, which means the reduction was very large. It had to be a reaction to something.
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On April 02 2012 18:26 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 18:05 karpo wrote:On April 02 2012 17:54 LavaLava wrote:On April 02 2012 16:42 karpo wrote:On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate. This argument is really weird. So there's less whine from terrans in the past so that should give credibility when they whine now? Cmon. Bnet forums had complains from all races and on TL people cried about protoss and zerg more or less dissapearing from code S/A for a while, it's a huge difference. What I'm trying to say is that this wave of Terrans complaining about the state of the game coincides with a shrinking Terran player base as well as a string of balance changes unfavorable to Terran (the most recent of which had little support even among non-Terrans, and went through untested), and Terran has a history of complaining somewhat less. To answer your question... of course? I didn't say believe it blindly, just respect it slightly more. Of course non-complainers have more credibility than chronic complainers when they make a complaint. It just kind of seems like the attitude of "eh, it's fine someone will eventually figure it out" is much more present in the discussion of Terran. The biggest general gripe by Zerg players for a long, long time was "I feel like I have to severely outplay my opponent because I'm Zerg, things must change", but now we are hearing "Oh, Terran is just the harder race, and that's how it's supposed to be." If terrans have a history of complaining less it's because they were the ones who fared best in the early stages of SC2. I've seen endless amounts of whine from terrans about protoss and zerg after that. Back when zergs were talking about outplaying their opponents zergs were underrepresented in ALL leagues. Dipping below even 20% in some leagues. And at the same time zerg representation in the GSL was utterly horrible. There's a huge difference here. That's a difference in quantity, not in quality. I would never claim that Terran has been bludgeoned down to the shitty level of 1.0.0 Zerg, just that the gripes might be legitimate, especially considering that Terran used to be the most played, which means the reduction was very large. It had to be a reaction to something.
Terran was never the most played. It was very well represented in the GSL during the first year of SC2, because of both maps and balance, but it has never been the most played in diamond or higher.
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On April 02 2012 19:27 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 18:26 LavaLava wrote:On April 02 2012 18:05 karpo wrote:On April 02 2012 17:54 LavaLava wrote:On April 02 2012 16:42 karpo wrote:On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate. This argument is really weird. So there's less whine from terrans in the past so that should give credibility when they whine now? Cmon. Bnet forums had complains from all races and on TL people cried about protoss and zerg more or less dissapearing from code S/A for a while, it's a huge difference. What I'm trying to say is that this wave of Terrans complaining about the state of the game coincides with a shrinking Terran player base as well as a string of balance changes unfavorable to Terran (the most recent of which had little support even among non-Terrans, and went through untested), and Terran has a history of complaining somewhat less. To answer your question... of course? I didn't say believe it blindly, just respect it slightly more. Of course non-complainers have more credibility than chronic complainers when they make a complaint. It just kind of seems like the attitude of "eh, it's fine someone will eventually figure it out" is much more present in the discussion of Terran. The biggest general gripe by Zerg players for a long, long time was "I feel like I have to severely outplay my opponent because I'm Zerg, things must change", but now we are hearing "Oh, Terran is just the harder race, and that's how it's supposed to be." If terrans have a history of complaining less it's because they were the ones who fared best in the early stages of SC2. I've seen endless amounts of whine from terrans about protoss and zerg after that. Back when zergs were talking about outplaying their opponents zergs were underrepresented in ALL leagues. Dipping below even 20% in some leagues. And at the same time zerg representation in the GSL was utterly horrible. There's a huge difference here. That's a difference in quantity, not in quality. I would never claim that Terran has been bludgeoned down to the shitty level of 1.0.0 Zerg, just that the gripes might be legitimate, especially considering that Terran used to be the most played, which means the reduction was very large. It had to be a reaction to something. Terran was never the most played. It was very well represented in the GSL during the first year of SC2, because of both maps and balance, but it has never been the most played in diamond or higher.
Uhh, I'm pretty sure it has been. The primary counter argument for Terrans being dominant in GSL was that there were just so many more Terran players that it was natural for the ratio to be tipped in Terran favor.
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On April 02 2012 19:38 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 19:27 Sadistx wrote:On April 02 2012 18:26 LavaLava wrote:On April 02 2012 18:05 karpo wrote:On April 02 2012 17:54 LavaLava wrote:On April 02 2012 16:42 karpo wrote:On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate. This argument is really weird. So there's less whine from terrans in the past so that should give credibility when they whine now? Cmon. Bnet forums had complains from all races and on TL people cried about protoss and zerg more or less dissapearing from code S/A for a while, it's a huge difference. What I'm trying to say is that this wave of Terrans complaining about the state of the game coincides with a shrinking Terran player base as well as a string of balance changes unfavorable to Terran (the most recent of which had little support even among non-Terrans, and went through untested), and Terran has a history of complaining somewhat less. To answer your question... of course? I didn't say believe it blindly, just respect it slightly more. Of course non-complainers have more credibility than chronic complainers when they make a complaint. It just kind of seems like the attitude of "eh, it's fine someone will eventually figure it out" is much more present in the discussion of Terran. The biggest general gripe by Zerg players for a long, long time was "I feel like I have to severely outplay my opponent because I'm Zerg, things must change", but now we are hearing "Oh, Terran is just the harder race, and that's how it's supposed to be." If terrans have a history of complaining less it's because they were the ones who fared best in the early stages of SC2. I've seen endless amounts of whine from terrans about protoss and zerg after that. Back when zergs were talking about outplaying their opponents zergs were underrepresented in ALL leagues. Dipping below even 20% in some leagues. And at the same time zerg representation in the GSL was utterly horrible. There's a huge difference here. That's a difference in quantity, not in quality. I would never claim that Terran has been bludgeoned down to the shitty level of 1.0.0 Zerg, just that the gripes might be legitimate, especially considering that Terran used to be the most played, which means the reduction was very large. It had to be a reaction to something. Terran was never the most played. It was very well represented in the GSL during the first year of SC2, because of both maps and balance, but it has never been the most played in diamond or higher. Uhh, I'm pretty sure it has been. The primary counter argument for Terrans being dominant in GSL was that there were just so many more Terran players that it was natural for the ratio to be tipped in Terran favor.
Only in Bronze. You can check this by going on sc2ranks, check "stats" and select the earliest patches.
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On April 02 2012 15:26 LavaLava wrote:
Anyone who avoids the bnet forums knows that Terran whining is significantly less common than Zerg and Protoss whining.
That's not to say there's none, I mean, we can see plenty in this thread. A lot of legitimate discussion interspersed with irrational crap and namecalling.
But I doubt that any reasonable person with any experience in the SC2 community would argue with me when I say that historically, the level of QQ and balance bullshit that has come from Terran players, while probably too high, lies somewhere below that of the other two races, especially Zerg (no offense).
Now, it's also a fact that at this time, the primary source of whining seems to be Terran players.
So, it seems like a group of people who are less (less) accustomed to spewing stupid shit, have started to complain heavily, following some changes to the game.
I think our (relative) silence on previous issues should have earned us some modicum of credibility for when we actually do start bitching about things. Perhaps many of the issues raised are indeed legitimate.
Whining is all about group dynamics. Others say its impossible to win in TvX and everything is shit? Oh, I just had a losing streak on ladder? GUESS WHAT I WILL JUST QQ MY HEART OUT IN THE FORUMS.
I don't see how the terran community should get more credibility than anyone else.
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EPT
