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On April 02 2012 09:18 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 08:15 YyapSsap wrote:
Very curious now to see why you and other T players (minority of the T populace where the majority finds TvP difficult) find other matchups difficult. It could be due to playing against more skilled opponents as what Big J is suggesting so that the overall MMR can stay within 50% but Im thinking Blizz wants to maintain a 50% winrate across all three matchups, so that it results in an overall 50%.
Im guessing like the micromanagement of units such as tanks play a big factor. It's because he mains Protoss. Guess what my strongest matchup is when I play protoss... PvT. Not rocket science. Simply the matchup you understand the best because you played it loads with the opposite race.
Lol nice, I didn't bother to look at his profile but I figured it was something like that, his TvZ and TvT is probably terribad
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On April 02 2012 07:47 Keylime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 07:45 Micket wrote:On April 02 2012 07:38 Twistacles wrote:On April 02 2012 07:29 Snowbear wrote:On April 02 2012 07:21 Twistacles wrote:On April 02 2012 07:13 Snowbear wrote:On April 02 2012 07:09 Mantraz wrote:After the snipe nerf i feel TvZ is quickly becoming the new TvP, anyone else having similar experiences in masters? Mutas are not the issue, it's ling/festor...  I got huge problems vs infestor + broodlord + some ground units. I tried to study terrans like kas, happy, etc, but they: 1) get an advantage and then win vs it 2) die like I do Its really crazy how cost efficient that composition is. I'm still looking for a sollution vs it. Most of the time I massdrop, and destroy their eco, but then their army moves towards my nat and I just lose my army. Then he goes for my production and I die. Anyone experiencing the same? It's only harder because it's different. You can't play against it like you would ling muta. As soon as you see the double evo you gotta go double ebay, mix in marauders, and turtle. Your normal 4th timing is usually delayed since a lot of zergs go ling ultra on 3 base and deny your 4th till you leave. What seems to work is to stay on 3, max out, and force him to engage in a bad position. If he tries to expand, engage him. If he doesn't expand, bunker up. This is overly simplistic so don't flame me, but that's more-or-less what you do I'm talking about broodlord infestor. Turtle against that and you die 100%... Oh. Yeah. If you see broodlord infestor then it's actually easier, imo. You grab your 4th at the usual timing at like the 160 food pushout and overmake vikings That works vs 3 base Broodlord. 4+base is a different beast entirely as the ultra switch WILL kill you. This, the ultra switch is extremely efficient, and if a terran makes an army to defeat BL infestor, he will die to ultra infestor switch.
Pretty much, man that snipe nerf just baffles me, maybe the warhound will be the unit that breaks that lame tech switch, being good anti armor for ultras with decent anti air for the broodlords?
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On April 02 2012 09:18 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 08:15 YyapSsap wrote:
Very curious now to see why you and other T players (minority of the T populace where the majority finds TvP difficult) find other matchups difficult. It could be due to playing against more skilled opponents as what Big J is suggesting so that the overall MMR can stay within 50% but Im thinking Blizz wants to maintain a 50% winrate across all three matchups, so that it results in an overall 50%.
Im guessing like the micromanagement of units such as tanks play a big factor. It's because he mains Protoss. Guess what my strongest matchup is when I play protoss... PvT. Not rocket science. Simply the matchup you understand the best because you played it loads with the opposite race.
Well for those that dont main P but main T. There are some T players out there that find this matchup easier than the rest that dont crossrace as a P. Just simply curious as to why they find the matchup easier.
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On April 02 2012 08:15 YyapSsap wrote:
Very curious now to see why you and other T players (minority of the T populace where the majority finds TvP difficult) find other matchups difficult. It could be due to playing against more skilled opponents as what Big J is suggesting so that the overall MMR can stay within 50% but Im thinking Blizz wants to maintain a 50% winrate across all three matchups, so that it results in an overall 50%.
Im guessing like the micromanagement of units such as tanks play a big factor.
I know this is but unrelated to topic of this thread but more insight info about how MMR effected me at WC3 ladder I played while ago. I assume it had overall winrate to maintain 50%.
So I played as Undead and I was decent 1v1 player. Ladder was weird as you have 4 MU you play. My UD vs NE was over 80% over large sample size followed by UD vs UD with 60-65% and UD vs HU around 45-50% while UD vs ORC 15-20%. Why was it like that? Everytime I got big winstreaks I started to face ORC opponents (my MMR started to be higher) and faced so much and lost almost all my games. Then faced some mix amount of HU/UD to maintain status quo but finally too many ORC opponents dropped me so much down that I started to face NE opponents. Those opponents were so easy that I managed to win games so easily until I my MMR raised another level and started to face ORCs again. It didn't help that UD vs ORC was considered favor for ORC side so you tend to lose vs weaker opponents too rather often.
The thing is that its like 10-20 games per MMR cycle before it starts to lower your rating. Suddenly you start getting many very weak opponent in a row but after some time you get very strong opponent in a row too when MMR goes up.
I guess SC2 terrans who has same thing with TvT/TvZ vs TvP skill is about same thing.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 02 2012 09:21 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 07:47 Keylime wrote:On April 02 2012 07:45 Micket wrote:On April 02 2012 07:38 Twistacles wrote:On April 02 2012 07:29 Snowbear wrote:On April 02 2012 07:21 Twistacles wrote:On April 02 2012 07:13 Snowbear wrote:On April 02 2012 07:09 Mantraz wrote:After the snipe nerf i feel TvZ is quickly becoming the new TvP, anyone else having similar experiences in masters? Mutas are not the issue, it's ling/festor... I got huge problems vs infestor + broodlord + some ground units. I tried to study terrans like kas, happy, etc, but they: 1) get an advantage and then win vs it 2) die like I do Its really crazy how cost efficient that composition is. I'm still looking for a sollution vs it. Most of the time I massdrop, and destroy their eco, but then their army moves towards my nat and I just lose my army. Then he goes for my production and I die. Anyone experiencing the same? It's only harder because it's different. You can't play against it like you would ling muta. As soon as you see the double evo you gotta go double ebay, mix in marauders, and turtle. Your normal 4th timing is usually delayed since a lot of zergs go ling ultra on 3 base and deny your 4th till you leave. What seems to work is to stay on 3, max out, and force him to engage in a bad position. If he tries to expand, engage him. If he doesn't expand, bunker up. This is overly simplistic so don't flame me, but that's more-or-less what you do I'm talking about broodlord infestor. Turtle against that and you die 100%... Oh. Yeah. If you see broodlord infestor then it's actually easier, imo. You grab your 4th at the usual timing at like the 160 food pushout and overmake vikings That works vs 3 base Broodlord. 4+base is a different beast entirely as the ultra switch WILL kill you. This, the ultra switch is extremely efficient, and if a terran makes an army to defeat BL infestor, he will die to ultra infestor switch. Pretty much, man that snipe nerf just baffles me, maybe the warhound will be the unit that breaks that lame tech switch, being good anti armor for ultras with decent anti air for the broodlords?
The warhound isn't anti-armor, it's anti-mech. It gets bonus damage vs. Mechanical Units on the ground, which is everything protoss except zealots, dark templar, and high templar, and everything terran except marines, marauders, ghosts, and reapers. It does not do bonus damage vs. zerg ground. It's air attack is anti-light splash, like the thor's anti-air attack. It's meant to replace the thor. It's cheaper, smaller, and costs less supply, so 2 warhounds are around equivalent to a thor. It's basically just a quality of life change.
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On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did.
This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them.
A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost.
If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled.
If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting.
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On April 02 2012 09:44 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 09:21 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 07:47 Keylime wrote:On April 02 2012 07:45 Micket wrote:On April 02 2012 07:38 Twistacles wrote:On April 02 2012 07:29 Snowbear wrote:On April 02 2012 07:21 Twistacles wrote:On April 02 2012 07:13 Snowbear wrote:On April 02 2012 07:09 Mantraz wrote:After the snipe nerf i feel TvZ is quickly becoming the new TvP, anyone else having similar experiences in masters? Mutas are not the issue, it's ling/festor... I got huge problems vs infestor + broodlord + some ground units. I tried to study terrans like kas, happy, etc, but they: 1) get an advantage and then win vs it 2) die like I do Its really crazy how cost efficient that composition is. I'm still looking for a sollution vs it. Most of the time I massdrop, and destroy their eco, but then their army moves towards my nat and I just lose my army. Then he goes for my production and I die. Anyone experiencing the same? It's only harder because it's different. You can't play against it like you would ling muta. As soon as you see the double evo you gotta go double ebay, mix in marauders, and turtle. Your normal 4th timing is usually delayed since a lot of zergs go ling ultra on 3 base and deny your 4th till you leave. What seems to work is to stay on 3, max out, and force him to engage in a bad position. If he tries to expand, engage him. If he doesn't expand, bunker up. This is overly simplistic so don't flame me, but that's more-or-less what you do I'm talking about broodlord infestor. Turtle against that and you die 100%... Oh. Yeah. If you see broodlord infestor then it's actually easier, imo. You grab your 4th at the usual timing at like the 160 food pushout and overmake vikings That works vs 3 base Broodlord. 4+base is a different beast entirely as the ultra switch WILL kill you. This, the ultra switch is extremely efficient, and if a terran makes an army to defeat BL infestor, he will die to ultra infestor switch. Pretty much, man that snipe nerf just baffles me, maybe the warhound will be the unit that breaks that lame tech switch, being good anti armor for ultras with decent anti air for the broodlords? The warhound isn't anti-armor, it's anti-mech. It gets bonus damage vs. Mechanical Units on the ground, which is everything protoss except zealots, dark templar, and high templar, and everything terran except marines, marauders, ghosts, and reapers. It does not do bonus damage vs. zerg ground. It's air attack is anti-light splash, like the thor's anti-air attack. It's meant to replace the thor. It's cheaper, smaller, and costs less supply, so 2 warhounds are around equivalent to a thor. It's basically just a quality of life change.
Well I am just speculating, that would be pretty stupid if that were the case though, but we dont even really know what will be or wont be in the expansion
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On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting.
Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you
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On April 02 2012 10:28 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting. Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you
Not to mention those are scans you could have been using to scout HIS base and react to what he may or may not be doing, that is why the whole dependence on MULEs to stay even economically is just stupid, late game MULEs are great, early game they are absolutely necessary and skipping them to scan starts the snowball effect of terran losing. Just get rid of MULEs and let us make scvs faster or something
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On April 02 2012 10:28 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting. Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you
sacking a mule to snipe an observer is absolutely worth it imo. It delays robo units, costs the protoss gas and cuts off their scout on you, and your army movements.
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On April 02 2012 10:32 malaan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 10:28 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting. Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you sacking a mule to snipe an observer is absolutely worth it imo. It delays robo units, costs the protoss gas and cuts off their scout on you, and your army movements.
Ssshhhh, he's busy being persecuted. Obs are free and they build from every structure and give you perfect information of the entire map as soon as they are out.
Chrono will get you 1 extra probe per chrono that you can spend on the nexus, which is usually 3. The rest are required for warp-gate and units.
I think you overestimate how far 'behind' you are economically and how 'critical' your mules are to keep up with a 1 base protoss.
Keeping an eye on your army 'should' be enough to spot the obs, and if you're doing some sort of funky play then really keep on eye on the important structure / unit to try and keep the protoss in the dark.
Otherwise a fast raven is really good vs protoss, I hear that PDD is kinda good if they are stalker heavy. Otherwise get your engy bay a bit faster and put a turret where you don't want nasty ol' mr protoss looking. (costs almost the same as a mule to build engy bay + a turret)
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On April 02 2012 10:32 malaan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 10:28 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting. Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you sacking a mule to snipe an observer is absolutely worth it imo. It delays robo units, costs the protoss gas and cuts off their scout on you, and your army movements.
meh, I mean having an observer constantly watching your army, yeah its worth a scan but 9 times out of 10 by the time you scan/kill a scouting observer in your base he has seen everything already anyways and will act accordingly, he will see that fast third CC, or banshee tech, or some sort of 1-1-1, you can't stop it unless you spot it immediately and have marines in the right spot (much like overlord scouts) its basically not gonna happen, they will see what you are doing
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On April 02 2012 11:04 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 10:32 malaan wrote:On April 02 2012 10:28 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting. Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you sacking a mule to snipe an observer is absolutely worth it imo. It delays robo units, costs the protoss gas and cuts off their scout on you, and your army movements. Ssshhhh, he's busy being persecuted. Obs are free and they build from every structure and give you perfect information of the entire map as soon as they are out. Chrono will get you 1 extra probe per chrono that you can spend on the nexus, which is usually 3. The rest are required for warp-gate and units. I think you overestimate how far 'behind' you are economically and how 'critical' your mules are to keep up with a 1 base protoss. Keeping an eye on your army 'should' be enough to spot the obs, and if you're doing some sort of funky play then really keep on eye on the important structure / unit to try and keep the protoss in the dark. Otherwise a fast raven is really good vs protoss, I hear that PDD is kinda good if they are stalker heavy. Otherwise get your engy bay a bit faster and put a turret where you don't want nasty ol' mr protoss looking. (costs almost the same as a mule to build engy bay + a turret)
This post is so full of dumb... where do I start? early game, with perfect macro, meaning constant scv and probe production terran is behind 18 supply to 23... this is before MULEs hit the board, after they come into effect we start to catch up a little bit, but you can see that missing a MULE = protoss ahead by 3 chronoboosted workers, so yeah it is a pretty big deal to sac a MULE just to scan. So without MULEs you can see how detrimental it is to terran macro, especially early game.
A chronoboosted observer takes 27 seconds to get out, does that really delay your robo production by much? we can barely even build a marine in that time...
As far as "keeping an eye" on our tech structures, how do you suppose we do that? Like I said, aside from a raven, you will have to have units in position and burn a scan, this is assuming you spot the obs IMMEDIATELY and drop the scan IMMEDIATELY, even then, with a vision of 11 the obs will see your shit anyways, stupid idea...
On turrets = they are a complete waste of minerals and offer no value to your army, they sit there and defend a very small position, and unless the protoss player is a scrub and not paying attention to his observer, he can avoid them and scout at will...
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On April 02 2012 09:21 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 07:47 Keylime wrote:On April 02 2012 07:45 Micket wrote:On April 02 2012 07:38 Twistacles wrote:On April 02 2012 07:29 Snowbear wrote:On April 02 2012 07:21 Twistacles wrote:On April 02 2012 07:13 Snowbear wrote:On April 02 2012 07:09 Mantraz wrote:After the snipe nerf i feel TvZ is quickly becoming the new TvP, anyone else having similar experiences in masters? Mutas are not the issue, it's ling/festor... I got huge problems vs infestor + broodlord + some ground units. I tried to study terrans like kas, happy, etc, but they: 1) get an advantage and then win vs it 2) die like I do Its really crazy how cost efficient that composition is. I'm still looking for a sollution vs it. Most of the time I massdrop, and destroy their eco, but then their army moves towards my nat and I just lose my army. Then he goes for my production and I die. Anyone experiencing the same? It's only harder because it's different. You can't play against it like you would ling muta. As soon as you see the double evo you gotta go double ebay, mix in marauders, and turtle. Your normal 4th timing is usually delayed since a lot of zergs go ling ultra on 3 base and deny your 4th till you leave. What seems to work is to stay on 3, max out, and force him to engage in a bad position. If he tries to expand, engage him. If he doesn't expand, bunker up. This is overly simplistic so don't flame me, but that's more-or-less what you do I'm talking about broodlord infestor. Turtle against that and you die 100%... Oh. Yeah. If you see broodlord infestor then it's actually easier, imo. You grab your 4th at the usual timing at like the 160 food pushout and overmake vikings That works vs 3 base Broodlord. 4+base is a different beast entirely as the ultra switch WILL kill you. This, the ultra switch is extremely efficient, and if a terran makes an army to defeat BL infestor, he will die to ultra infestor switch. Pretty much, man that snipe nerf just baffles me, maybe the warhound will be the unit that breaks that lame tech switch, being good anti armor for ultras with decent anti air for the broodlords?
warhound is only +mechanical, not +armored. At least that is if they keep it the way it was at blizcon.
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On April 02 2012 11:05 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 10:32 malaan wrote:On April 02 2012 10:28 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting. Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you sacking a mule to snipe an observer is absolutely worth it imo. It delays robo units, costs the protoss gas and cuts off their scout on you, and your army movements. meh, I mean having an observer constantly watching your army, yeah its worth a scan but 9 times out of 10 by the time you scan/kill a scouting observer in your base he has seen everything already anyways and will act accordingly, he will see that fast third CC, or banshee tech, or some sort of 1-1-1, you can't stop it unless you spot it immediately and have marines in the right spot (much like overlord scouts) its basically not gonna happen, they will see what you are doing
I think you are under rating the value of the observer to the protoss. Also, build time is not the only factor, since the observer is painfully slow and needs to fly across the map. All battles in PvT are positioning dependent and losing a observer slows everything down. This is why you rarely, if ever, see a professional protoss send their observer directly into their opponents base. Instead they feel out the terran and try to figure out what is going on without losing the observer and leave it in front so they can tell when the terran moves out. If you lose that early observer you cannot safely expand as a protoss unless know exactly where the terran's army is.
The case of a protoss expanding behind some sentries a very good example of when that single observer is key. If you snipe that observer, the protoss is delay for the 27 or so seconds it takes to build and the 20 seconds or more it takes for it to fly cross map. That could delay an expansion for a full minute, which is pretty awesome. It costs you the mule, but if that 3rd base were up for a fully minute earlier, it would only take 7 probes to make up that amount in that minute. That on top of delaying colossi and other tech due to the chrono needed to get out the replacement observer.
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Long thread of terrans saying they cannot stand TvP and P saying that they just need to L2Play
So sad...
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On April 02 2012 10:28 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting. Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you
That's utterly ridiculous. Scanning to snipe an observer is always worth it, for several reasons:
1. Protoss players want to make as few observers as possible, and killing them forces more. This delays immortals, colossi, and warp prisms.
2. Observers are the only way Protoss can scout your base, besides hallucinated phoenixes, but sentries are only really produced in the early-mid game. Furthermore, only observers can truly keep tabs on your army properly when it's time to position our army for engagement (whereas you have units that are actually fast and mobile, like a stimmed free unit or a flying unit).
3. By the time you're 10-15 minutes into the game, you don't need to worry about falling behind economically anymore. MULEs are fantastic, you have multiple OCs, the worker counts are high enough where 2 workers won't make a difference, Protoss players have long since used any chrono boost on probes, and you should be scanning things anyway. Stopping your opponent from having information is just as important as you obtaining information.
4. We need observers in case of ghosts or banshees. This is not an option; this is a necessity for us, as both cloaked units will completely destroy us (whether used for harrassment or in a main army).
Always always always kill our observers.
EDIT: Also keep in mind that it only takes about two or three marines to actually kill an observer once scanned, so it's pretty much the easiest thing to do if you're willing to take the OC energy sacrifice >.> Observers are slow and weak.
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On April 02 2012 12:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 10:28 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 10:02 Kharnage wrote:On April 02 2012 09:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.
For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me. Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did. This has a lot to do with how protoss functions. If a protoss player scouts your composition and has the opportunity to build the correct composition he'll roll right through your army. If the protoss player either blindly builds a composition and you can scout it and build your counter or they scout too late and don't have time to prepare the right composition you will steamroll them. A great example is a terran player opening marine ghost. If protoss is sentry heavy and has blindly expanded behind sentries, they will just lose. But if they scout the ghost opening and switch their tech to chargelot or colossus in time then the terran is just going to get rolled. If the terran wins he'll 'feel' lucky and if he losses he'll 'feel' powerless. Really what he should be doing is trying to keep an eye on the protoss composition OR denying scouting. Denying scouting vs protoss is basically impossible, except for some funky fast raven build maybe, if youre burning scans to try and snipe observers youre falling behind economically already, and the protoss will most definitely expect some sort of goofy all in from you That's utterly ridiculous. Scanning to snipe an observer is always worth it, for several reasons: 1. Protoss players want to make as few observers as possible, and killing them forces more. This delays immortals, colossi, and warp prisms. 2. Observers are the only way Protoss can scout your base, besides hallucinated phoenixes, but sentries are only really produced in the early-mid game. Furthermore, only observers can truly keep tabs on your army properly when it's time to position our army for engagement (whereas you have units that are actually fast and mobile, like a stimmed free unit or a flying unit). 3. By the time you're 10-15 minutes into the game, you don't need to worry about falling behind economically anymore. MULEs are fantastic, you have multiple OCs, the worker counts are high enough where 2 workers won't make a difference, Protoss players have long since used any chrono boost on probes, and you should be scanning things anyway. Stopping your opponent from having information is just as important as you obtaining information. 4. We need observers in case of ghosts or banshees. This is not an option; this is a necessity for us, as both cloaked units will completely destroy us (whether used for harrassment or in a main army). Always always always kill our observers.
Oh you watch Day 9 and take it as gospel? Lol no wonder you are so misguided, watch someone that actually PLAYS the game maybe youll learn more
User was warned for this post
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United States7483 Posts
On April 02 2012 12:30 Talack wrote:Long thread of terrans saying they cannot stand TvP and P saying that they just need to L2Play So sad...
There was a time when it was exactly the opposite: a long list of protoss saying they couldn't stand PvT and T saying they needed to learn to play.
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On April 02 2012 12:30 Talack wrote:Long thread of terrans saying they cannot stand TvP and P saying that they just need to L2Play So sad...
They have to do that in order to hide the truth and maintain the status quo. To quote a wise man from a few pages back:
In SC2 though, Blizzard can still change a lot of things, so most Protoss players try to deny it by all means. You see, if the community get to the consensus that Terran is harder at lower levels, people will ask Blizzard to level things up in future expansions (since they can't do anything about that in WoL). Non-terran players want to keep the status quo, so they have to deny it by all means. That's why you see DarkPlasmaBall come up with that kind of sarcastic post. LoL.
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EPT
