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Where did all of the terrans go? - Page 179

Forum Index > SC2 General
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YyapSsap
Profile Joined September 2010
New Zealand1511 Posts
April 01 2012 22:04 GMT
#3561
An interesting observation I seem to notice in this thread is that those T players who do find TvP rather their best matchup does poorly in the other matchups.
Sergio1992
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Italy522 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-01 22:06:46
April 01 2012 22:06 GMT
#3562
On April 02 2012 07:04 YyapSsap wrote:
An interesting observation I seem to notice in this thread is that those T players who do find TvP rather their best matchup does poorly in the other matchups.

this is true also for me. Don't ask me why.
Twistacles
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1327 Posts
April 01 2012 22:08 GMT
#3563
Yeah i've noticed that too. Either you're good at TvP, or good at TvZ/TvT. Might have to do with bio control vs tank+bio
"If you don't give a shit which gum you buy, get stride" - Tyler
Mantraz
Profile Joined March 2011
Norway119 Posts
April 01 2012 22:09 GMT
#3564
After the snipe nerf i feel TvZ is quickly becoming the new TvP, anyone else having similar experiences in masters? Mutas are not the issue, it's ling/festor...
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 01 2012 22:09 GMT
#3565
On April 02 2012 07:08 Twistacles wrote:
Yeah i've noticed that too. Either you're good at TvP, or good at TvZ/TvT. Might have to do with bio control vs tank+bio


I think both match ups take different skill sets. The same goes for PvT and PvZ. My PvZ is WAY better than my PvT.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 01 2012 22:12 GMT
#3566
On April 02 2012 07:04 YyapSsap wrote:
An interesting observation I seem to notice in this thread is that those T players who do find TvP rather their best matchup does poorly in the other matchups.

Thats quite simple to explain:
The ladder gives you harder opponents if you perform better, keeping everyone that is not on the top of the ladder or way too low in MMR compared to skill (for example when you buy a second account and just started laddering on it) around 50% overall winrate. Therfore if you are really good in one MU, you get "too hard" opponents in the other MUs, and therefore your winrate in those is low but your average winrate is ~50%.
Snowbear
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1925 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-01 22:15:58
April 01 2012 22:13 GMT
#3567
On April 02 2012 07:09 Mantraz wrote:
After the snipe nerf i feel TvZ is quickly becoming the new TvP, anyone else having similar experiences in masters? Mutas are not the issue, it's ling/festor...


I got huge problems vs infestor + broodlord + some ground units. I tried to study terrans like kas, happy, etc, but they:
1) get an advantage and then win vs it
2) die like I do

Its really crazy how cost efficient that composition is. I'm still looking for a sollution vs it. Most of the time I massdrop, and destroy their eco, but then their army moves towards my nat and I just lose my army. Then he goes for my production and I die.

Anyone experiencing the same?
Twistacles
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1327 Posts
April 01 2012 22:21 GMT
#3568
On April 02 2012 07:13 Snowbear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2012 07:09 Mantraz wrote:
After the snipe nerf i feel TvZ is quickly becoming the new TvP, anyone else having similar experiences in masters? Mutas are not the issue, it's ling/festor...


I got huge problems vs infestor + broodlord + some ground units. I tried to study terrans like kas, happy, etc, but they:
1) get an advantage and then win vs it
2) die like I do

Its really crazy how cost efficient that composition is. I'm still looking for a sollution vs it. Most of the time I massdrop, and destroy their eco, but then their army moves towards my nat and I just lose my army. Then he goes for my production and I die.

Anyone experiencing the same?


It's only harder because it's different. You can't play against it like you would ling muta.

As soon as you see the double evo you gotta go double ebay, mix in marauders, and turtle. Your normal 4th timing is usually delayed since a lot of zergs go ling ultra on 3 base and deny your 4th till you leave. What seems to work is to stay on 3, max out, and force him to engage in a bad position. If he tries to expand, engage him. If he doesn't expand, bunker up.

This is overly simplistic so don't flame me, but that's more-or-less what you do
"If you don't give a shit which gum you buy, get stride" - Tyler
mazqo
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland368 Posts
April 01 2012 22:27 GMT
#3569
http://drop.sc/packs/794

There is my last 27 TvP's, didnt filter them anyway. Hope you learn something!
Snowbear
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1925 Posts
April 01 2012 22:29 GMT
#3570
On April 02 2012 07:21 Twistacles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2012 07:13 Snowbear wrote:
On April 02 2012 07:09 Mantraz wrote:
After the snipe nerf i feel TvZ is quickly becoming the new TvP, anyone else having similar experiences in masters? Mutas are not the issue, it's ling/festor...


I got huge problems vs infestor + broodlord + some ground units. I tried to study terrans like kas, happy, etc, but they:
1) get an advantage and then win vs it
2) die like I do

Its really crazy how cost efficient that composition is. I'm still looking for a sollution vs it. Most of the time I massdrop, and destroy their eco, but then their army moves towards my nat and I just lose my army. Then he goes for my production and I die.

Anyone experiencing the same?


It's only harder because it's different. You can't play against it like you would ling muta.

As soon as you see the double evo you gotta go double ebay, mix in marauders, and turtle. Your normal 4th timing is usually delayed since a lot of zergs go ling ultra on 3 base and deny your 4th till you leave. What seems to work is to stay on 3, max out, and force him to engage in a bad position. If he tries to expand, engage him. If he doesn't expand, bunker up.

This is overly simplistic so don't flame me, but that's more-or-less what you do


I'm talking about broodlord infestor. Turtle against that and you die 100%...
Bidj
Profile Joined September 2010
France98 Posts
April 01 2012 22:31 GMT
#3571
On April 02 2012 07:27 mazqo wrote:
http://drop.sc/packs/794

There is my last 27 TvP's, didnt filter them anyway. Hope you learn something!


Thanks.
Rooooaaaar
fox77
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada95 Posts
April 01 2012 22:34 GMT
#3572
They are at finals they win all the prize money.
Twistacles
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1327 Posts
April 01 2012 22:38 GMT
#3573
On April 02 2012 07:29 Snowbear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2012 07:21 Twistacles wrote:
On April 02 2012 07:13 Snowbear wrote:
On April 02 2012 07:09 Mantraz wrote:
After the snipe nerf i feel TvZ is quickly becoming the new TvP, anyone else having similar experiences in masters? Mutas are not the issue, it's ling/festor...


I got huge problems vs infestor + broodlord + some ground units. I tried to study terrans like kas, happy, etc, but they:
1) get an advantage and then win vs it
2) die like I do

Its really crazy how cost efficient that composition is. I'm still looking for a sollution vs it. Most of the time I massdrop, and destroy their eco, but then their army moves towards my nat and I just lose my army. Then he goes for my production and I die.

Anyone experiencing the same?


It's only harder because it's different. You can't play against it like you would ling muta.

As soon as you see the double evo you gotta go double ebay, mix in marauders, and turtle. Your normal 4th timing is usually delayed since a lot of zergs go ling ultra on 3 base and deny your 4th till you leave. What seems to work is to stay on 3, max out, and force him to engage in a bad position. If he tries to expand, engage him. If he doesn't expand, bunker up.

This is overly simplistic so don't flame me, but that's more-or-less what you do


I'm talking about broodlord infestor. Turtle against that and you die 100%...

Oh. Yeah. If you see broodlord infestor then it's actually easier, imo. You grab your 4th at the usual timing at like the 160 food pushout and overmake vikings
"If you don't give a shit which gum you buy, get stride" - Tyler
Micket
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2163 Posts
April 01 2012 22:45 GMT
#3574
On April 02 2012 07:38 Twistacles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2012 07:29 Snowbear wrote:
On April 02 2012 07:21 Twistacles wrote:
On April 02 2012 07:13 Snowbear wrote:
On April 02 2012 07:09 Mantraz wrote:
After the snipe nerf i feel TvZ is quickly becoming the new TvP, anyone else having similar experiences in masters? Mutas are not the issue, it's ling/festor...


I got huge problems vs infestor + broodlord + some ground units. I tried to study terrans like kas, happy, etc, but they:
1) get an advantage and then win vs it
2) die like I do

Its really crazy how cost efficient that composition is. I'm still looking for a sollution vs it. Most of the time I massdrop, and destroy their eco, but then their army moves towards my nat and I just lose my army. Then he goes for my production and I die.

Anyone experiencing the same?


It's only harder because it's different. You can't play against it like you would ling muta.

As soon as you see the double evo you gotta go double ebay, mix in marauders, and turtle. Your normal 4th timing is usually delayed since a lot of zergs go ling ultra on 3 base and deny your 4th till you leave. What seems to work is to stay on 3, max out, and force him to engage in a bad position. If he tries to expand, engage him. If he doesn't expand, bunker up.

This is overly simplistic so don't flame me, but that's more-or-less what you do


I'm talking about broodlord infestor. Turtle against that and you die 100%...

Oh. Yeah. If you see broodlord infestor then it's actually easier, imo. You grab your 4th at the usual timing at like the 160 food pushout and overmake vikings

That works vs 3 base Broodlord. 4+base is a different beast entirely as the ultra switch WILL kill you.
Keylime
Profile Joined July 2011
United States33 Posts
April 01 2012 22:47 GMT
#3575
On April 02 2012 07:45 Micket wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2012 07:38 Twistacles wrote:
On April 02 2012 07:29 Snowbear wrote:
On April 02 2012 07:21 Twistacles wrote:
On April 02 2012 07:13 Snowbear wrote:
On April 02 2012 07:09 Mantraz wrote:
After the snipe nerf i feel TvZ is quickly becoming the new TvP, anyone else having similar experiences in masters? Mutas are not the issue, it's ling/festor...


I got huge problems vs infestor + broodlord + some ground units. I tried to study terrans like kas, happy, etc, but they:
1) get an advantage and then win vs it
2) die like I do

Its really crazy how cost efficient that composition is. I'm still looking for a sollution vs it. Most of the time I massdrop, and destroy their eco, but then their army moves towards my nat and I just lose my army. Then he goes for my production and I die.

Anyone experiencing the same?


It's only harder because it's different. You can't play against it like you would ling muta.

As soon as you see the double evo you gotta go double ebay, mix in marauders, and turtle. Your normal 4th timing is usually delayed since a lot of zergs go ling ultra on 3 base and deny your 4th till you leave. What seems to work is to stay on 3, max out, and force him to engage in a bad position. If he tries to expand, engage him. If he doesn't expand, bunker up.

This is overly simplistic so don't flame me, but that's more-or-less what you do


I'm talking about broodlord infestor. Turtle against that and you die 100%...

Oh. Yeah. If you see broodlord infestor then it's actually easier, imo. You grab your 4th at the usual timing at like the 160 food pushout and overmake vikings

That works vs 3 base Broodlord. 4+base is a different beast entirely as the ultra switch WILL kill you.


This, the ultra switch is extremely efficient, and if a terran makes an army to defeat BL infestor, he will die to ultra infestor switch.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
corpsepose
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1678 Posts
April 01 2012 22:49 GMT
#3576
On April 02 2012 07:04 YyapSsap wrote:
An interesting observation I seem to notice in this thread is that those T players who do find TvP rather their best matchup does poorly in the other matchups.


this holds true for me. my tvp is miles ahead of the other two.
http://www.twitch.tv/corpsep0se
YyapSsap
Profile Joined September 2010
New Zealand1511 Posts
April 01 2012 23:15 GMT
#3577
Very curious now to see why you and other T players (minority of the T populace where the majority finds TvP difficult) find other matchups difficult. It could be due to playing against more skilled opponents as what Big J is suggesting so that the overall MMR can stay within 50% but Im thinking Blizz wants to maintain a 50% winrate across all three matchups, so that it results in an overall 50%.

Im guessing like the micromanagement of units such as tanks play a big factor.
DooMDash
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1015 Posts
April 01 2012 23:44 GMT
#3578
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.

For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me.
S1 3500+ Master T. S2 1600+ Master T.
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
April 02 2012 00:18 GMT
#3579
On April 02 2012 08:15 YyapSsap wrote:
Very curious now to see why you and other T players (minority of the T populace where the majority finds TvP difficult) find other matchups difficult. It could be due to playing against more skilled opponents as what Big J is suggesting so that the overall MMR can stay within 50% but Im thinking Blizz wants to maintain a 50% winrate across all three matchups, so that it results in an overall 50%.

Im guessing like the micromanagement of units such as tanks play a big factor.


It's because he mains Protoss. Guess what my strongest matchup is when I play protoss... PvT.

Not rocket science. Simply the matchup you understand the best because you played it loads with the opposite race.
XquisiteWretch
Profile Joined March 2012
United States77 Posts
April 02 2012 00:18 GMT
#3580
On April 02 2012 08:44 DooMDash wrote:
My TvT and TvZ are miles and miles ahead of my TvP. Even when I lose I at least feel like I either played bad, or have major room for improvement. TvP rarely feels that way, it feels like there is little to be learned from my experiences besides build order wins or just being much better. So maybe my TvP is a lack of understanding my mistakes or where to improve, but it seems like that problem in itself could also be related to a bigger design problem.

For me TvP isn't even back in fourth. When I lose I lose hard, when I win it was either a build order win, a bit of luck, or just being much better than my opponent. When I play TvZ's or TvT's I actually have lots and lots of matches where the games are crazy close and intense, and TvP just isn't like that for me.


Man you nailed that one on the head, that is exactly how I feel with TvP, I just couldnt quite it express it as well as you just did.
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