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On April 02 2012 03:07 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:55 Plansix wrote:On April 02 2012 02:37 Bojas wrote:On April 02 2012 02:29 one-one-one wrote:On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? I think it is also a NA vs EU issue. His opponent in a ZvT didn't look very good either. I think most EU diamonds would own both him and his opponent given what I saw. Perhaps, it's not easy to compare my own mechanics to that of another dia player but I would say mine are allot better. But again it's hard to judge. I sometimes watch streams of low masters player and am amazed at how bad their mechanics are, but they might have good decision making. I figure DJWheat as a caster probably knows more about the game compared to the time he has to play it. I think decision making and positioning in SC2 play a larger role that a lot of people think. Wheat has some good decision making and is very active with this units, which comes at the price of his macro. I just watched him beat a protoss who by denying his third base and doing a few 2 pronged attacked with mutas and roaches. By the end of it he had a pretty impressive bank of minerals and gas. At the casual level, I don't think we can expect everyone to have equal skill in everything. I have a zerg practice partner who has very good micro with roaches and mutas but his macro is sort of lacking. My macro is stronger as a protoss but my control beyond force fields is lacking. We are both in the same league. He favors more aggressive builds, I like to see if I can get a good foundation before trying to end him. If someone beats you with a two pronged attack, but you kept you money low with solid macro, are you the better player? If you get lucky, hold off the that aggression and macro up to the point where you can 1a over their army, are they the better player? I don't think judging someone solely on their micro or macro is a far way assess their over all skill level. Wheat is NOT active with his units. He barely ever takes watch towers or try to scout for other expansions than natural or 3rd. IMO this is what one would expect a diamond zerg to do (but perhaps not a gold / plat zerg).
I fell really weird that everyone if focusing on his play like it is some sort of evidence for this thread. He recently said that he got both of his accounts up into diamond, so he is not on his way to masters are anything. Also, the man has a wife, child and full time job, I am sure he has to brush the rust off every time he plays.
And all of the terrans I have seen him beat have been pretty bad and they are apparently the same skill level if he is getting matched him them.
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On April 02 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:07 Hider wrote:On April 02 2012 02:55 Plansix wrote:On April 02 2012 02:37 Bojas wrote:On April 02 2012 02:29 one-one-one wrote:On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? I think it is also a NA vs EU issue. His opponent in a ZvT didn't look very good either. I think most EU diamonds would own both him and his opponent given what I saw. Perhaps, it's not easy to compare my own mechanics to that of another dia player but I would say mine are allot better. But again it's hard to judge. I sometimes watch streams of low masters player and am amazed at how bad their mechanics are, but they might have good decision making. I figure DJWheat as a caster probably knows more about the game compared to the time he has to play it. I think decision making and positioning in SC2 play a larger role that a lot of people think. Wheat has some good decision making and is very active with this units, which comes at the price of his macro. I just watched him beat a protoss who by denying his third base and doing a few 2 pronged attacked with mutas and roaches. By the end of it he had a pretty impressive bank of minerals and gas. At the casual level, I don't think we can expect everyone to have equal skill in everything. I have a zerg practice partner who has very good micro with roaches and mutas but his macro is sort of lacking. My macro is stronger as a protoss but my control beyond force fields is lacking. We are both in the same league. He favors more aggressive builds, I like to see if I can get a good foundation before trying to end him. If someone beats you with a two pronged attack, but you kept you money low with solid macro, are you the better player? If you get lucky, hold off the that aggression and macro up to the point where you can 1a over their army, are they the better player? I don't think judging someone solely on their micro or macro is a far way assess their over all skill level. Wheat is NOT active with his units. He barely ever takes watch towers or try to scout for other expansions than natural or 3rd. IMO this is what one would expect a diamond zerg to do (but perhaps not a gold / plat zerg). I fell really weird that everyone if focusing on his play like it is some sort of evidence for this thread. He recently said that he got both of his accounts up into diamond, so he is not on his way to masters are anything. Also, the man has a wife, child and full time job, I am sure he has to brush the rust off every time he plays. And all of the terrans I have seen him beat have been pretty bad and they are apparently the same skill level if he is getting matched him them.
What are you talking about? This isn't about trashing wheat for the case of trashing him. My point is that it seems absurd that he can get to diamond having that terrible mechanics. I doubt its doable with terran (unless you 1 base).
How do you know whether his opponents are better/worse than him (from a mechanical POV)? He reviwed one of his game and in that replay it was clear that the macro of the terran player was miles better than him (he did lose that game as well). Sure the terran didn't micro well, but neither did Wheat.
But unless you would argue that macroing as a zerg is much much harder I dont think you can justifiy that Wheats mechanics are at a similar skill level as the opposing terran.
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On April 02 2012 03:11 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:05 Hider wrote:On April 02 2012 03:02 one-one-one wrote:On April 02 2012 02:52 Hider wrote:On April 02 2012 02:29 one-one-one wrote:On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? I think it is also a NA vs EU issue. His opponent in a ZvT didn't look very good either. I think most EU diamonds would own both him and his opponent given what I saw. NA is like 50 point worse I think. Not that big a difference. Anyway the tvz I saw at Tal darim looked (From the terran perspective) much like I would expect. The terran players macro failed when he tried to some drop play, but was pretty decent when he was just defending. Djwheats macro was terrible through the whole game best illustrated that he got behind like 110 to 60 food even though he defended harass well. It has got to be a lot more than 50 points! Dude, djWheat gets his 3rd base up at like 15 minutes, then looses it.... and the game goes on cos his terran opponent can't finish him off. His creep spread doesn't exist. His micro is outright awful. The diamond zergs I face on EU ladder are mechanically superior by a huge margin. They wont loose their third base like he did, they will have creep all over the place, they wont be supply blocked at 118 for a whole minute at the 14 minute mark like wheat. And besides. They will have more than 118 food at that time  I played a lot on both servers. Genereally I had around 0-100 point more on NA. I think 50 point is pretty decent estimate. I know others who had similar experiences. Well, points only tell you so much about actual skill. I would also be very careful with comparing points between servers. And I take it you played on master level? The difference in skill level has to get smaller and smaller the higher up in the leagues Try to find a diamond zerg streamer on EU and you will see the difference yourself. edit: but still I agree with what you are trying to prove, namely that the micro/macro and multitasking needed to stop a diamond zerg is harder to execute for the terran. DjWheat as an example is bad, cos he would be low diamond or platinum on EU. Not rank 10-ish as he is now.
Its a fair assumption that the skill level distribution of NA and europe is similar. Hence the 50 point relative difference is close to equal between masters and diamond.
The builds on both servers are pretty similar (at masters level) and it would be weird to argue that they are is a huge difference between diamond EU players builds and diamond NA players build, hence point is a veyr good estimate of skilll.
But anyway this might just be the skill level of low diamond. YOu play at a high diamond level I think, which perhaps is why your opponents seems much better.
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On April 02 2012 03:18 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:14 XquisiteWretch wrote:If you're playing casually you don't care if you win or lose Yeah okay guy, solid argument there. Plus, when people say "casual gaming" they are generally referring to "non-pro" I don't compete in any tournaments so I don't conisder myself a "competitive" player, I consider myself a "casual player" but its not like Im sitting on my lawn chair with a margarita out on my deck playing with my laptop while reading the news paper and screaming imbalance. I am a master level player and there is no such thing as an "easy" game and yes, I try very hard to improve my game and play better, and yes, I care if I win or lose. To add to that, just because I am a casual player doesn't mean my opinion, or more importantly, my money is not important to blizzard. I realize they probably dont give a fuck what I think about balance but they will care if I stop playing and dont drop $60+ on an expansion to a game that has become a pain in the ass to play and actually enjoy, imbalance or not, some of the mechanics/matchups/game scenarios are so fucking irritating the game loses its fun often for me. /rant
Although I agree with you on some level, there is no end to balancing for specific play levels. To this day there are threads on the Blizzard forums about the banshee being OP. Should Blizzard nerf the banshee so some bronze and silver level protoss can feel good about beating someone who uses them? I don't think so. Obviously if there is a large enough group of players having the same problem, something needs to be changed. But they cannot change things for the lower level that delegitimizes the highest level of play.
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On April 02 2012 03:32 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote:On April 02 2012 03:07 Hider wrote:On April 02 2012 02:55 Plansix wrote:On April 02 2012 02:37 Bojas wrote:On April 02 2012 02:29 one-one-one wrote:On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? I think it is also a NA vs EU issue. His opponent in a ZvT didn't look very good either. I think most EU diamonds would own both him and his opponent given what I saw. Perhaps, it's not easy to compare my own mechanics to that of another dia player but I would say mine are allot better. But again it's hard to judge. I sometimes watch streams of low masters player and am amazed at how bad their mechanics are, but they might have good decision making. I figure DJWheat as a caster probably knows more about the game compared to the time he has to play it. I think decision making and positioning in SC2 play a larger role that a lot of people think. Wheat has some good decision making and is very active with this units, which comes at the price of his macro. I just watched him beat a protoss who by denying his third base and doing a few 2 pronged attacked with mutas and roaches. By the end of it he had a pretty impressive bank of minerals and gas. At the casual level, I don't think we can expect everyone to have equal skill in everything. I have a zerg practice partner who has very good micro with roaches and mutas but his macro is sort of lacking. My macro is stronger as a protoss but my control beyond force fields is lacking. We are both in the same league. He favors more aggressive builds, I like to see if I can get a good foundation before trying to end him. If someone beats you with a two pronged attack, but you kept you money low with solid macro, are you the better player? If you get lucky, hold off the that aggression and macro up to the point where you can 1a over their army, are they the better player? I don't think judging someone solely on their micro or macro is a far way assess their over all skill level. Wheat is NOT active with his units. He barely ever takes watch towers or try to scout for other expansions than natural or 3rd. IMO this is what one would expect a diamond zerg to do (but perhaps not a gold / plat zerg). I fell really weird that everyone if focusing on his play like it is some sort of evidence for this thread. He recently said that he got both of his accounts up into diamond, so he is not on his way to masters are anything. Also, the man has a wife, child and full time job, I am sure he has to brush the rust off every time he plays. And all of the terrans I have seen him beat have been pretty bad and they are apparently the same skill level if he is getting matched him them. What are you talking about? This isn't about trashing wheat for the case of trashing him. My point is that it seems absurd that he can get to diamond having that terrible mechanics. I doubt its doable with terran (unless you 1 base). How do you know whether his opponents are better/worse than him (from a mechanical POV)? He reviwed one of his game and in that replay it was clear that the macro of the terran player was miles better than him (he did lose that game as well). Sure the terran didn't micro well, but neither did Wheat. But unless you would argue that macroing as a zerg is much much harder I dont think you can justifiy that Wheats mechanics are at a similar skill level as the opposing terran.
I am just saying that the terrans I saw him beat where terrible. I think Wheat caught one army on move command in a game I watch, because it was a slaughter.
I just feel weird focusing on one person for this thread, specifically when you saying that he is worse than his terran opponents. If someone want to go down that road, they should use their own replays, rather than dragging some caster or random person into the argument. This is the internet after all, I don't think all of the posts will continue to be objective and well reasoned if we continue to focus on Wheat.
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On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible?
People here often disregard apm/eapm completely to talk about decision making. I've seen Protoss players in masters with 80 apm (I'm not talking about eapm it's raw apm). It's kinda obvious that with this kind of speed you are not microing a lot and even your macro suffers from it. So everyone comes with: "he must be great at decision making". Do you really have to be great at decision making to turtle in 3 bases until 200/200? (talking about PvT here ofc).
Everyone one knows that terrans will try to drop you after the 10 minute mark. All he has to do is leave a part of his army in the main and a part in the natural. It's not rocket science decision making. If the Terrans tries to push with everything in the natural, just stall him with forcefields, while the rest of your army comes from the main.
After you achieve your 200/200 (with a good composition), all he has to do is have an ok positioning (zealots in the front) and hit a couple of storms. Tell me more about how great his decision making is.
Btw, I dare you guys to find a master Terran players with less then 100 apm, unless the guy is doing 3-4 rax scv marine all in every game.
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On April 02 2012 03:46 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? People here often disregard apm/eapm completely to talk about decision making. I've seen Protoss players in masters with 80 apm (I'm not talking about eapm it's raw apm). It's kinda obvious that with this kind of speed you are not microing a lot and even your macro suffers from it. So everyone comes with: "he must be great at decision making". Do you really have to be great at decision making to turtle in 3 bases until 200/200? (talking about PvT here ofc). Everyone one knows that terrans will try to drop you after the 10 minute mark. All he has to do is leave a part of his army in the main and a part in the natural. It's not rocket science decision making. If the Terrans tries to push with everything in the natural, just stall him with forcefields, while the rest of your army comes from the main. After you achieve your 200/200 (with a good composition), all he has to do is have an ok positioning (zealots in the front) and hit a couple of storms. Tell me more about how great his decision making is. Btw, I dare you guys to find a master Terran players with less then 100 apm, unless the guy is doing 3-4 rax scv marine all in every game.
found him, he played me on antiga and had 97 average apm in a ~40min game. But yeah, Im neither at my PC nor did I safe the replay, so you can take my word on it or you dont.
He played Mech btw, did good dmg early but lost because he was floating like 5k minerals at some point when he maxed and could not win in maxed vs maxed engagements Mech vs ling/ultra, because he had over 90scvs almost all of the game.
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Don't act like a master-level Terran one-baser is unheard of, guys.
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On April 02 2012 03:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:46 petro1987 wrote:On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? People here often disregard apm/eapm completely to talk about decision making. I've seen Protoss players in masters with 80 apm (I'm not talking about eapm it's raw apm). It's kinda obvious that with this kind of speed you are not microing a lot and even your macro suffers from it. So everyone comes with: "he must be great at decision making". Do you really have to be great at decision making to turtle in 3 bases until 200/200? (talking about PvT here ofc). Everyone one knows that terrans will try to drop you after the 10 minute mark. All he has to do is leave a part of his army in the main and a part in the natural. It's not rocket science decision making. If the Terrans tries to push with everything in the natural, just stall him with forcefields, while the rest of your army comes from the main. After you achieve your 200/200 (with a good composition), all he has to do is have an ok positioning (zealots in the front) and hit a couple of storms. Tell me more about how great his decision making is. Btw, I dare you guys to find a master Terran players with less then 100 apm, unless the guy is doing 3-4 rax scv marine all in every game. found him, he played me on antiga and had 97 average apm in a ~40min game. But yeah, Im neither at my PC nor did I safe the replay, so you can take my word on it or you dont. He played Mech btw, did good dmg early but lost because he was floating like 5k minerals at some point when he maxed and could not win in maxed vs maxed engagements Mech vs ling/ultra, because he had over 90scvs almost all of the game.
Sorry If I just don't take your word BigJ, you've been derailing this thread for a long time. Show us the replay, please. Oh you don't have it? How suiting is this?
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On April 02 2012 03:55 ZenithM wrote:
Don't act like a master-level Terran one-baser is unheard of, guys.
Well you can (or could I guess) get to masters by one basing with any race. That's not the point of my post though, ofc.
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I'm a midmaster EU Terran with average of 85 APM. I don't really spam at all, so my EAPM is 63. Also I tend to float my buiildings after a match sometimes, so my real APM is probably a few points higher.
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Well there are still plenty of terrans in plat. I keep getting stupid TvT
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On April 02 2012 04:08 Greenei wrote:
I'm a midmaster EU Terran with average of 85 APM. I don't really spam at all, so my EAPM is 63. Also I tend to float my buiildings after a match sometimes, so my real APM is probably a few points higher.
Can you post a replay of you playing a normal game? Not floating your buildings for instance.
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On April 02 2012 03:46 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? People here often disregard apm/eapm completely to talk about decision making. I've seen Protoss players in masters with 80 apm (I'm not talking about eapm it's raw apm). It's kinda obvious that with this kind of speed you are not microing a lot and even your macro suffers from it. So everyone comes with: "he must be great at decision making". Do you really have to be great at decision making to turtle in 3 bases until 200/200? (talking about PvT here ofc). Everyone one knows that terrans will try to drop you after the 10 minute mark. All he has to do is leave a part of his army in the main and a part in the natural. It's not rocket science decision making. If the Terrans tries to push with everything in the natural, just stall him with forcefields, while the rest of your army comes from the main. After you achieve your 200/200 (with a good composition), all he has to do is have an ok positioning (zealots in the front) and hit a couple of storms. Tell me more about how great his decision making is. Btw, I dare you guys to find a master Terran players with less then 100 apm, unless the guy is doing 3-4 rax scv marine all in every game.
Yeh I kinda agree. As toss it doesn't take that fantastic decision making to be able to be maxed and then 1a roflstomp your opponent (though you can't be brain dead ever). Playing terran mech is something compltely different. YOu actually need to think how you position every single unit of yours, and have a really well throught out gameplan.
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On April 02 2012 03:46 petro1987 wrote:
Btw, I dare you guys to find a master Terran players with less then 100 apm, unless the guy is doing 3-4 rax scv marine all in every game.
I found one!
His name was Aerohank (me). He is a mid-master level terran player on the EU server. His average APM is about 80, his EPM is about 90. He always plays macro games.
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On April 02 2012 04:36 Aerohank wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:46 petro1987 wrote:
Btw, I dare you guys to find a master Terran players with less then 100 apm, unless the guy is doing 3-4 rax scv marine all in every game. I found one! His name was Aerohank (me). He is a mid-master level terran player on the EU server. His average APM is about 80, his EPM is about 90. He always plays macro games.
How do you split your marines while sieging your tanks, dropping while macroing at home keeping your apm that low O.o
Also, teach me how to have 80 actions counted from EVERYTHING you do, while having more actions counted only from effective things you do.
If you mean blizz apm - don't use that. Use SC2 gears.
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On April 02 2012 03:55 ZenithM wrote:
Don't act like a master-level Terran one-baser is unheard of, guys.
Don't get us started on protoss, lol.
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On April 02 2012 04:36 Aerohank wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:46 petro1987 wrote:
Btw, I dare you guys to find a master Terran players with less then 100 apm, unless the guy is doing 3-4 rax scv marine all in every game. I found one! His name was Aerohank (me). He is a mid-master level terran player on the EU server. His average APM is about 80, his EPM is about 90. He always plays macro games.
Effective APM is higher than actual, lol.
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On April 02 2012 04:52 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 04:36 Aerohank wrote:On April 02 2012 03:46 petro1987 wrote:
Btw, I dare you guys to find a master Terran players with less then 100 apm, unless the guy is doing 3-4 rax scv marine all in every game. I found one! His name was Aerohank (me). He is a mid-master level terran player on the EU server. His average APM is about 80, his EPM is about 90. He always plays macro games. Effective APM is higher than actual, lol.
That's how it is in the client, and obviously an error by Blizzard (so, yeah, lol, check your facts)
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The most vocal complainers in this thread ask for replays as soon as someone claims anything that doesn't fit their terran UP/weak argument. But where's the replays of the endless games where T can't do shit to P and protoss 3 bases to 200/200 and a-moves to victory? I haven't seen one yet and i've read most of this thread.
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EPT
