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Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran (from above) was playing against a gold league zerg whom I had seen play a few times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. The gold league zerg definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more.
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On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no simply no way a diamond terran could be that bad (unless he 1 bases every game). I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more.
So was this Terran good or bad? I didn't quite understand.
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I think the problem is highlighted by the game between Taeja and JJakji on Atlantis Spaceship.
After being at 200/200 supply for a long time,trading units and teching to ravens and stuff Taeja still managed to float 9k gas while having no minerals. Jjakji was floating like 3-4k gas and no mins.
WTF! Please give us some viable gas units that we can use. Marine/tank vs marine/tank TvTs doesnt really set things up for the BC transition. And in TvZ and TvP the terran lategame units are really bad.
Fix seeker missile casting range , energy cost and damage radius now please , and make feedback do less damage to mech units with energy bars. Remove 250mm upgrade from thor and the thor energy with it.
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On April 01 2012 22:03 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no simply no way a diamond terran could be that bad (unless he 1 bases every game). I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. So was this Terran good or bad? I didn't quite understand.
He looked 10 times better than DJwheat (both were/are diamonds).
Just edited one of the sentences to this: "The gold league zerg definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on)"
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On April 01 2012 22:10 one-one-one wrote:
I think the problem is highlighted by the game between Taeja and JJakji on Atlantis Spaceship.
After being at 200/200 supply for a long time,trading units and teching to ravens and stuff Taeja still managed to float 9k gas while having no minerals. Jjakji was floating like 3-4k gas and no mins.
WTF! Please give us some viable gas units that we can use. Marine/tank vs marine/tank TvTs doesnt really set things up for the BC transition. And in TvZ and TvP the terran lategame units are really bad.
Fix seeker missile casting range , energy cost and damage radius now please , and make feedback do less damage to mech units with energy bars. Remove 250mm upgrade from thor and the thor energy with it.
I think a radius of 2 is pretty strong as far as bombardment spells go, perhaps an increase in the splash damage. any bigger radius than 2 is pretty overpowered, 2 radius is larger than any Bombardment Spell (Psi Storm, EMP, Fungal are 1.5) Yes Cost and Range could use improvement.
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On April 01 2012 22:10 one-one-one wrote:
I think the problem is highlighted by the game between Taeja and JJakji on Atlantis Spaceship.
After being at 200/200 supply for a long time,trading units and teching to ravens and stuff Taeja still managed to float 9k gas while having no minerals. Jjakji was floating like 3-4k gas and no mins.
WTF! Please give us some viable gas units that we can use. Marine/tank vs marine/tank TvTs doesnt really set things up for the BC transition. And in TvZ and TvP the terran lategame units are really bad.
Fix seeker missile casting range , energy cost and damage radius now please , and make feedback do less damage to mech units with energy bars. Remove 250mm upgrade from thor and the thor energy with it.
Well a lot of terrans late game problem would be fixed if ravens were a viable late game unit (they would still be a much harder race though). But are you really sure that ravens aren't viable?
I mean if you split up ravens (to avoid fungals) seeker missile is insanely strong against broodlord/infestor.
Ravens combined with EMP (against HT) might work okay'ish against toss as well.
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On April 01 2012 22:17 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 22:10 one-one-one wrote:
I think the problem is highlighted by the game between Taeja and JJakji on Atlantis Spaceship.
After being at 200/200 supply for a long time,trading units and teching to ravens and stuff Taeja still managed to float 9k gas while having no minerals. Jjakji was floating like 3-4k gas and no mins.
WTF! Please give us some viable gas units that we can use. Marine/tank vs marine/tank TvTs doesnt really set things up for the BC transition. And in TvZ and TvP the terran lategame units are really bad.
Fix seeker missile casting range , energy cost and damage radius now please , and make feedback do less damage to mech units with energy bars. Remove 250mm upgrade from thor and the thor energy with it.
Well a lot of terrans late game problem would be fixed if ravens were a viable late game unit (they would still be a much harder race though). But are you really sure that ravens aren't viable? I mean if you split up ravens (to avoid fungals) seeker missile is insanely strong against broodlord/infestor. Ravens combined with EMP (against HT) might work okay'ish against toss as well.
Raven are really slow (Cruiser speed) and HSM is really short ranged =/
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On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more.
See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha.
Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents).
Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are...
At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'("
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Diamond player vs gold zerg and it went to a 25-30 min macro game? And the dia T didn't go mech? I'm diamond T, and there is just no way that a gold zerg could hold on against my agression for 25-30 mins..
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On April 01 2012 22:27 huehuehuehue wrote:
Diamond player vs gold zerg and it went to a 25-30 min macro game? And the dia T didn't go mech? I'm diamond T, and there is just no way that a gold zerg could hold on against my agression for 25-30 mins..
I 1 rax gasless FE with bunker rush kill Gold Zerg, if that doesn't kill him the 4 rax marine aggression after the FE will =P
Not like he can survive a 2 Rax FE either =/
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On April 01 2012 22:24 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha. Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents). Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are... At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'("
What is your point? I didn't actually state an opinion. This was actually something that happened. A zerg player who probably played like 5hours in 1 month (or something like that) went to a 25 min macro game against a terran who probably plays like 2-3 hours/day (at least). How you interpret this is up to you. Maybe the terran went for wrong builds or didn't harass enough, w/e.
My main point was more how DJwheat could be diamond? Did somebody watch his stream yesterday, and if so, do you believe that anybody could get diamond as terran playing mainly macro oriented games being that bad?
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On April 01 2012 22:22 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 22:17 Hider wrote:On April 01 2012 22:10 one-one-one wrote:
I think the problem is highlighted by the game between Taeja and JJakji on Atlantis Spaceship.
After being at 200/200 supply for a long time,trading units and teching to ravens and stuff Taeja still managed to float 9k gas while having no minerals. Jjakji was floating like 3-4k gas and no mins.
WTF! Please give us some viable gas units that we can use. Marine/tank vs marine/tank TvTs doesnt really set things up for the BC transition. And in TvZ and TvP the terran lategame units are really bad.
Fix seeker missile casting range , energy cost and damage radius now please , and make feedback do less damage to mech units with energy bars. Remove 250mm upgrade from thor and the thor energy with it.
Well a lot of terrans late game problem would be fixed if ravens were a viable late game unit (they would still be a much harder race though). But are you really sure that ravens aren't viable? I mean if you split up ravens (to avoid fungals) seeker missile is insanely strong against broodlord/infestor. Ravens combined with EMP (against HT) might work okay'ish against toss as well. Raven are really slow (Cruiser speed) and HSM is really short ranged =/
Broodslords are really slow also.......
Whats your point? You dont think ravens can be used against zerg. OR are you talking about toss? Or whatever. These kind of comments are just pointless.
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On April 01 2012 22:24 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha. Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents). Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are... At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'("
This is wrong.
Platinum _and_ gold zergs can very much defend the first four hellions in a reactor hellion expand. Gold league is not as bad as it was some time ago ...
Still , you should win vs them if you are diamond with terran. But you cannot slack off and just expect an easy win. If you don't play well they will punish you hard.
As a EU terran in the high diamond - master range (I have been in both leagues back and forth :-) ) I feel that a lot of zerg and protoss players are really lacking in multitasking and decision making. If i get the games vs P and Z to the point that I want , and that is a big IF , having established a 3 base position at the 13-14 minute mark and managed to harass with some success to stop over greedy play it starts to become very clear that my multitasking and micro is better. I will drop you in two places at once while at the same time pushing towards your base.
A lot of the times master zergs and protosses just falls apart completely to this. They might defend the drops, but they miss injects , warp ins and other macro stuff.
While I'm dropping and pushing I am still doing my macro better than they are and more often than not I win with my push cos of pure army size advantage.
After the game, when I see that they are in master league , I go WTF!
Don't fool yourself. It is possible to get to master league with protoss and zerg by only doing abusive builds.
Stephano style ZvT or PvT where you just sit on 3 bases while teching hard and chronoing upgrades are much easier to execute than what is needed to punish such a player.
You might have been one of the more solid non-abusive protoss players and thus have a quite easy time with terran.
That is it.
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I think terrans should just try harder like they do in BW
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On April 01 2012 22:41 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 22:24 ZenithM wrote:On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha. Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents). Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are... At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'(" This is wrong. Platinum _and_ gold zergs can very much defend the first four hellions in a reactor hellion expand. Gold league is not as bad as it was some time ago ... Still , you should win vs them if you are diamond with terran. But you cannot slack off and just expect an easy win. If you don't play well they will punish you hard. As a EU terran in the high diamond - master range (I have been in both leagues back and forth :-) ) I feel that a lot of zerg and protoss players are really lacking in multitasking and decision making. If i get the games vs P and Z to the point that I want , and that is a big IF , having established a 3 base position at the 13-14 minute mark and managed to harass with some success to stop over greedy play it starts to become very clear that my multitasking and micro is better. I will drop you in two places at once while at the same time pushing towards your base. A lot of the times master zergs and protosses just falls apart completely to this. They might defend the drops, but they miss injects , warp ins and other macro stuff. While I'm dropping and pushing I am still doing my macro better than they are and more often than not I win with my push cos of pure army size advantage. After the game, when I see that they are in master league , I go WTF! Don't fool yourself. It is possible to get to master league with protoss and zerg by only doing abusive builds. Stephano style ZvT or PvT where you just sit on 3 bases while teching hard and chronoing upgrades are much easier to execute than what is needed to punish such a player. You might have been one of the more solid non-abusive protoss players and thus have a quite easy time with terran. That is it.
Actually I remember as well when it was possible for me to outmulititasking my opponents (like a year ago at mid/high masters). Today thats not possible at my skill level. And last summer I hitted the wall. People had simply learned to deal with drops, and while my macro was really strong (probably around 95 sq+, yeh it was that good) my micro was underdeveloped. SO from then on I actually kinda slumped into mid'ish masters (even though i practiced harder than ever before) and it didn't help that terrans were getting more and more nerfs. It took me a lot of time but at last I feel like I have "learned" the control and positioning part of the game to reach the higher part of masters.
But I feel like my personal experience should be a warning for you, as you probably (today) is on a similar skill level that I was on a year ago. Dont rely too much on drops if you want to do well in ½ a year/1 year as well. Learn how to control units and be cost efficient in a straight up battle.
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On April 01 2012 22:24 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha. Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents). Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are... At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'("
It always amazes me how short memory the Sc2 community has. Since it is infact common knowledge that Terrans need to be alot better players to be able to get the wins.
You are propably already furiously shouting at your home that Im wrong so I even did the digging for you. So you dont have to take my word.. or anyones word here for it. Here, see this link :
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3963916702
I want to quote Blizzard themselfs. Especially the parts :
1) 'zerg is not struggling at any level of play, and their win ratio compared to skill is extremely solid at every skill level'
2) 'we are aware that at lower levels of play, terran isn’t performing as well as they are at the pro level and we’re examining different solutions to deal with that issue'
I even highlighted the important parts for you.
So yes. As Blizzard states, they are aware. Wich means its common knowledge.
If you chooce ignore the facts & dont want to listen the community who offers their opinions. Then listen Blizzards. And if you dont want to listen them. I dont think any amount of proof or any argument is going to stand against your beliefs. Its like arguing with religious people.
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On April 01 2012 23:22 iksi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 22:24 ZenithM wrote:On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha. Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents). Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are... At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'(" It always amazes me how short memory the Sc2 community has. Since it is infact common knowledge that Terrans need to be alot better players to be able to get the wins. You are propably already furiously shouting at your home that Im wrong so I even did the digging for you. So you dont have to take my word.. or anyones word here for it. Here, see this link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3963916702I want to quote Blizzard themselfs. Especially the parts : 1) ' zerg is not struggling at any level of play, and their win ratio compared to skill is extremely solid at every skill level' 2) 'we are aware that at lower levels of play, terran isn’t performing as well as they are at the pro level and we’re examining different solutions to deal with that issue' I even highlighted the important parts for you. So yes. As Blizzard states, they are aware. Wich means its common knowledge. If you chooce ignore the facts & dont want to listen the community who offers their opinions. Then listen Blizzards. And if you dont want to listen them. I dont think any amount of proof or any argument is going to stand against your beliefs. Its like arguing with religious people.
Nowhere in that quote does blizzard say that terran requires more skill
they said they arent crushing everything on the ladder like they were in tournaments at the time they said that
you're talking about the race that has had the most stable and highest winrate since beta, only like 1 or 2 times has it been lower than that, and still it was extremely close.
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On April 01 2012 21:01 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 19:41 run.at.me wrote:
Assuming everyone here plays ladder, you should know by now that you can't really 'casually' play ladder, without accepting the fact the it is unlikely for you to improve.
In which case, what makes the definition of how hard it is to play a race, is the amount of 'efficient time played' and how much you improve in that time.
Terrans argue that it is too difficult at lower leagues. Point taken, but anyone who tries to argue that they want to play casually and still not lose all the time is being moron and contradicting themselves. Because you will continue to lose until you verse players at your skill level, and until the 50% is reached, u will lose more than win.
So, it's safe to say that you who are arguing for Terrans difficulty are playing this game competitively. Otherwise stop talking. Granted, Terran is the hardest race to play to reach higher levels. One race has to be the hardest. Perfect balance of skill correlating with win percentages are unattainable.
Changing this difficulty requires a complete remodel of the game. Your wasting your time thinking anything will change in WoL. So for the love of god, stop crying So because were playing casually, and according to you, not "trying" hard enough we should just stfu? great argument... there are plenty of people, including semi pros who have come on here stating how they watch their own replays, study build orders, etc. and still cannot compete with P and Z at masters/GM level, but yeah, we just need to TRY harder! meanwhile you get buffs, we get nerfs, the maps get bigger, our early game "strengths" have become a predictable, easily counterable joke... we just have to TRY harder! thats like Obama saying well if Americans just TRIED HARDER, we wouldnt be in a recession
No, I'm saying that you're not playing casually, if you're trying hard. You're either playing competitively, or casually. There is little room in-between. You say you want to improve, but you want it to happen casually? That makes no sense at all.
You missed my point entirely. People here are saying 'It's too hard to play casually as Terran.' If you're playing casually you don't care if you win or lose. The match making system will make it so that you win 50% and lose 50%. There is no other way around this, whether you're trying your absolute best or not.
In which case, sitting there saying 'I want to win without trying... well at least trying as little as my opponent does,' is really stupid. You're either playing to win, or playing for fun. Winning is fun, and that's cool too, just play for fun and while you may lose a lot initially, you will end up winning just as much as you were before, just with lower skilled players. So your win loss ratio will remain intact.
So, my point is that the only people who have a right to speak in this discussion, is those who play competitively. Casual gaming has no place here. And, as previously mentioned, yes Terran is harder to gain the skills required to move up in the ladder system. To change this, you need to remodel all three races. This won't happen in WoL, so again stop crying and making dumb arguments.
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On April 01 2012 23:22 iksi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 22:24 ZenithM wrote:On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha. Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents). Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are... At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'(" It always amazes me how short memory the Sc2 community has. Since it is infact common knowledge that Terrans need to be alot better players to be able to get the wins. You are propably already furiously shouting at your home that Im wrong so I even did the digging for you. So you dont have to take my word.. or anyones word here for it. Here, see this link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3963916702I want to quote Blizzard themselfs. Especially the parts : 1) ' zerg is not struggling at any level of play, and their win ratio compared to skill is extremely solid at every skill level' 2) 'we are aware that at lower levels of play, terran isn’t performing as well as they are at the pro level and we’re examining different solutions to deal with that issue' I even highlighted the important parts for you. So yes. As Blizzard states, they are aware. Wich means its common knowledge. If you chooce ignore the facts & dont want to listen the community who offers their opinions. Then listen Blizzards. And if you dont want to listen them. I dont think any amount of proof or any argument is going to stand against your beliefs. Its like arguing with religious people.
Terran Can’t Beat Protoss
We don’t think this is an accurate assessment of the matchup because win/loss ratios are swinging both ways. This is especially true at league levels below Masters. That said, we have noticed that terran at lower skill levels are underperforming a bit, especially vs. zerg and somewhat vs. protoss. We suspect that the initial complexity of the terran race may be a contributing factor to this, so internally, we’re experimenting with moving some of the new terran units around to make terran slightly more intuitive to play -- at lower levels only.
Seems far from your statement that it's common knowledge that terrans need to be better players. Yes it does seem like arguing against religious people yet from where i'm standing you're the religious type in that statement.
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On April 01 2012 23:05 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 22:41 one-one-one wrote:On April 01 2012 22:24 ZenithM wrote:On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha. Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents). Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are... At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'(" This is wrong. Platinum _and_ gold zergs can very much defend the first four hellions in a reactor hellion expand. Gold league is not as bad as it was some time ago ... Still , you should win vs them if you are diamond with terran. But you cannot slack off and just expect an easy win. If you don't play well they will punish you hard. As a EU terran in the high diamond - master range (I have been in both leagues back and forth :-) ) I feel that a lot of zerg and protoss players are really lacking in multitasking and decision making. If i get the games vs P and Z to the point that I want , and that is a big IF , having established a 3 base position at the 13-14 minute mark and managed to harass with some success to stop over greedy play it starts to become very clear that my multitasking and micro is better. I will drop you in two places at once while at the same time pushing towards your base. A lot of the times master zergs and protosses just falls apart completely to this. They might defend the drops, but they miss injects , warp ins and other macro stuff. While I'm dropping and pushing I am still doing my macro better than they are and more often than not I win with my push cos of pure army size advantage. After the game, when I see that they are in master league , I go WTF! Don't fool yourself. It is possible to get to master league with protoss and zerg by only doing abusive builds. Stephano style ZvT or PvT where you just sit on 3 bases while teching hard and chronoing upgrades are much easier to execute than what is needed to punish such a player. You might have been one of the more solid non-abusive protoss players and thus have a quite easy time with terran. That is it. Actually I remember as well when it was possible for me to outmulititasking my opponents (like a year ago at mid/high masters). Today thats not possible at my skill level. And last summer I hitted the wall. People had simply learned to deal with drops, and while my macro was really strong (probably around 95 sq+, yeh it was that good) my micro was underdeveloped. SO from then on I actually kinda slumped into mid'ish masters (even though i practiced harder than ever before) and it didn't help that terrans were getting more and more nerfs. It took me a lot of time but at last I feel like I have "learned" the control and positioning part of the game to reach the higher part of masters. But I feel like my personal experience should be a warning for you, as you probably (today) is on a similar skill level that I was on a year ago. Dont rely too much on drops if you want to do well in ½ a year/1 year as well. Learn how to control units and be cost efficient in a straight up battle.
Thx for advice.
I'm aware of the fact that I can't rely on the drops doing any damage. But what I can rely on is that they at the very least
force the opponent to divide his attention which will give me time to push across the map. If i just do a straight push towards a ling infestor ultra zerg I get rolled, and without drops he can expand freely..
This is what I have extracted from watching korean terrans. If they are not up vs mutas in TvZ every player will do drops like this.
What is your take on this ?
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EPT
