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All I can tell from the majority of players in this thread is they want the game to be easier.
It also reminds me of when I used to play poker at casinos. So many stories of how their opponent is so bad and it's a disgrace how they can win. Fucking grow up and play the game, if you want to play a easier game go play LoL or switch to the mega easy races your complaining about.
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On April 01 2012 23:38 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 23:22 iksi wrote:On April 01 2012 22:24 ZenithM wrote:On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha. Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents). Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are... At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'(" It always amazes me how short memory the Sc2 community has. Since it is infact common knowledge that Terrans need to be alot better players to be able to get the wins. You are propably already furiously shouting at your home that Im wrong so I even did the digging for you. So you dont have to take my word.. or anyones word here for it. Here, see this link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3963916702I want to quote Blizzard themselfs. Especially the parts : 1) ' zerg is not struggling at any level of play, and their win ratio compared to skill is extremely solid at every skill level' 2) 'we are aware that at lower levels of play, terran isn’t performing as well as they are at the pro level and we’re examining different solutions to deal with that issue' I even highlighted the important parts for you. So yes. As Blizzard states, they are aware. Wich means its common knowledge. If you chooce ignore the facts & dont want to listen the community who offers their opinions. Then listen Blizzards. And if you dont want to listen them. I dont think any amount of proof or any argument is going to stand against your beliefs. Its like arguing with religious people. Show nested quote +
Terran Can’t Beat Protoss
We don’t think this is an accurate assessment of the matchup because win/loss ratios are swinging both ways. This is especially true at league levels below Masters. That said, we have noticed that terran at lower skill levels are underperforming a bit, especially vs. zerg and somewhat vs. protoss. We suspect that the initial complexity of the terran race may be a contributing factor to this, so internally, we’re experimenting with moving some of the new terran units around to make terran slightly more intuitive to play -- at lower levels only.
Seems far from your statement that it's common knowledge that terrans need to be better players. Yes it does seem like arguing against religious people yet from where i'm standing you're the religious type in that statement.
I think you didn't realize that the topic was TvZ match up, wich you woulda figured out if you payed attention to what my post was reply for. The conversation launched from the topic about DjWheat playing Z vs Terran.
Now TvP is a whole new topic of discussion, wich my statements were not forwarded for. I guess I coulda been more spesific in my orignal post, and clearly mention that it was about TvZ... but ofc I assumed that people actually follow the arguments & earlier posts... silly me. =)
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On April 01 2012 23:45 iksi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 23:38 karpo wrote:On April 01 2012 23:22 iksi wrote:On April 01 2012 22:24 ZenithM wrote:On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha. Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents). Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are... At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'(" It always amazes me how short memory the Sc2 community has. Since it is infact common knowledge that Terrans need to be alot better players to be able to get the wins. You are propably already furiously shouting at your home that Im wrong so I even did the digging for you. So you dont have to take my word.. or anyones word here for it. Here, see this link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3963916702I want to quote Blizzard themselfs. Especially the parts : 1) ' zerg is not struggling at any level of play, and their win ratio compared to skill is extremely solid at every skill level' 2) 'we are aware that at lower levels of play, terran isn’t performing as well as they are at the pro level and we’re examining different solutions to deal with that issue' I even highlighted the important parts for you. So yes. As Blizzard states, they are aware. Wich means its common knowledge. If you chooce ignore the facts & dont want to listen the community who offers their opinions. Then listen Blizzards. And if you dont want to listen them. I dont think any amount of proof or any argument is going to stand against your beliefs. Its like arguing with religious people.
Terran Can’t Beat Protoss
We don’t think this is an accurate assessment of the matchup because win/loss ratios are swinging both ways. This is especially true at league levels below Masters. That said, we have noticed that terran at lower skill levels are underperforming a bit, especially vs. zerg and somewhat vs. protoss. We suspect that the initial complexity of the terran race may be a contributing factor to this, so internally, we’re experimenting with moving some of the new terran units around to make terran slightly more intuitive to play -- at lower levels only.
Seems far from your statement that it's common knowledge that terrans need to be better players. Yes it does seem like arguing against religious people yet from where i'm standing you're the religious type in that statement. I think you didn't realize that the topic was TvZ match up, wich you woulda figured out if you payed attention to what my post was reply for. The conversation launched from the topic about DjWheat playing Z vs Terran. Now TvP is a whole new topic of discussion, wich my statements were not forwarded for. I guess I coulda been more spesific in my orignal post, and clearly mention that it was about TvZ... but ofc I assumed that people actually follow the arguments & earlier posts... silly me. =)
Ah i forgot that this is a overall terran whine thread, not just about TvP.
Regardless. The original statement about terrans underperforming a bit in the lower leagues is supposed to be solved not by buffs but by clearing up tech paths. So it's more about low level terrans not understanding their race more than the race being weak according to that statement. And it's underperforming a bit not "can't win" like some terrans in this thread are saying.
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On April 01 2012 23:22 iksi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 22:24 ZenithM wrote:On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha. Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents). Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are... At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'(" It always amazes me how short memory the Sc2 community has. Since it is infact common knowledge that Terrans need to be alot better players to be able to get the wins. You are propably already furiously shouting at your home that Im wrong so I even did the digging for you. So you dont have to take my word.. or anyones word here for it. Here, see this link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3963916702I want to quote Blizzard themselfs. Especially the parts : 1) ' zerg is not struggling at any level of play, and their win ratio compared to skill is extremely solid at every skill level' 2) 'we are aware that at lower levels of play, terran isn’t performing as well as they are at the pro level and we’re examining different solutions to deal with that issue' I even highlighted the important parts for you. So yes. As Blizzard states, they are aware. Wich means its common knowledge. If you chooce ignore the facts & dont want to listen the community who offers their opinions. Then listen Blizzards. And if you dont want to listen them. I dont think any amount of proof or any argument is going to stand against your beliefs. Its like arguing with religious people.
My memory seems to go even further back than yours apparently. Because at SC2's release, it was common knowledge that Terran was, as we like to say, "OP as fuck".
And from Blizzard's statements (which I read when they were released), you drew this conclusion: "it is infact common knowledge that Terrans need to be alot better players to be able to get the wins", seems a bit blindly religiously fanatic to me... Can you like not think all in black and white?
Just because I'm defending the fact that Terrans don't need 2 leagues over their opponents to win an even game doesn't mean that I think they have it easy. I said the thread started with "it's a bit harder for Terrans" and I was quite ok with it at the time, but now it has gotten quite ridiculous.
No, people, diamond terrans don't lose to fucking gold zerg players. But yes, they may have trouble in lategame with both their vZ and vP matchups.
I hope I (Terran player) won't get called out again (by other Terran players) for stating that diamond Terrans win easily against gold leaguers. Imagine how the other races must laugh at us right now.
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On April 02 2012 00:09 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 23:22 iksi wrote:On April 01 2012 22:24 ZenithM wrote:On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha. Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents). Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are... At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'(" It always amazes me how short memory the Sc2 community has. Since it is infact common knowledge that Terrans need to be alot better players to be able to get the wins. You are propably already furiously shouting at your home that Im wrong so I even did the digging for you. So you dont have to take my word.. or anyones word here for it. Here, see this link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3963916702I want to quote Blizzard themselfs. Especially the parts : 1) ' zerg is not struggling at any level of play, and their win ratio compared to skill is extremely solid at every skill level' 2) 'we are aware that at lower levels of play, terran isn’t performing as well as they are at the pro level and we’re examining different solutions to deal with that issue' I even highlighted the important parts for you. So yes. As Blizzard states, they are aware. Wich means its common knowledge. If you chooce ignore the facts & dont want to listen the community who offers their opinions. Then listen Blizzards. And if you dont want to listen them. I dont think any amount of proof or any argument is going to stand against your beliefs. Its like arguing with religious people. My memory seems to go even further back than yours apparently. Because at SC2's release, it was common knowledge that Terran was, as we like to say, "OP as fuck". And from Blizzard's statements (which I read when they were released), you drew this conclusion: "it is infact common knowledge that Terrans need to be alot better players to be able to get the wins", seems a bit blindly religiously fanatic to me... Can you like not think all in black and white? Just because I'm defending the fact that Terrans don't need 2 leagues over their opponents to win an even game doesn't mean that I think they have it easy. I said the thread started with "it's a bit harder for Terrans" and I was quite ok with it at the time, but now it has gotten quite ridiculous. No, people, diamond terrans don't lose to fucking gold zerg players. But yes, they may have trouble in lategame with both their vZ and vP matchups. I hope I (Terran player) won't get called out again (by other Terran players) for stating that diamond Terrans win easily against gold leaguers. Imagine how the other races must laugh at us right now.
If you could point the sentence for me since Im having trouble.. where did I ever said in my post that Terran was Balanced 14 months ago. Since if you do find that sentence. Im happily going to correct it and agree with you.
Terran was too strong. Maps were too small & reapers teared up zerg. Thank god those were fixed & bigger maps made. What was balanced 14 months ago has nothing to do what is balanced now.
And in future, maybe 6 months from now when new patches are out, new fixes are made. Maybe some changes, I can imagine we have very different discussion about balance yet again. You see, the game is ever changing with every patch & people play better everyday, also new styles get invented. Remember the time when every zerg said infestors are horrible, they dont even attack !
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On April 01 2012 23:41 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 23:05 Hider wrote:On April 01 2012 22:41 one-one-one wrote:On April 01 2012 22:24 ZenithM wrote:On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha. Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents). Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are... At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'(" This is wrong. Platinum _and_ gold zergs can very much defend the first four hellions in a reactor hellion expand. Gold league is not as bad as it was some time ago ... Still , you should win vs them if you are diamond with terran. But you cannot slack off and just expect an easy win. If you don't play well they will punish you hard. As a EU terran in the high diamond - master range (I have been in both leagues back and forth :-) ) I feel that a lot of zerg and protoss players are really lacking in multitasking and decision making. If i get the games vs P and Z to the point that I want , and that is a big IF , having established a 3 base position at the 13-14 minute mark and managed to harass with some success to stop over greedy play it starts to become very clear that my multitasking and micro is better. I will drop you in two places at once while at the same time pushing towards your base. A lot of the times master zergs and protosses just falls apart completely to this. They might defend the drops, but they miss injects , warp ins and other macro stuff. While I'm dropping and pushing I am still doing my macro better than they are and more often than not I win with my push cos of pure army size advantage. After the game, when I see that they are in master league , I go WTF! Don't fool yourself. It is possible to get to master league with protoss and zerg by only doing abusive builds. Stephano style ZvT or PvT where you just sit on 3 bases while teching hard and chronoing upgrades are much easier to execute than what is needed to punish such a player. You might have been one of the more solid non-abusive protoss players and thus have a quite easy time with terran. That is it. Actually I remember as well when it was possible for me to outmulititasking my opponents (like a year ago at mid/high masters). Today thats not possible at my skill level. And last summer I hitted the wall. People had simply learned to deal with drops, and while my macro was really strong (probably around 95 sq+, yeh it was that good) my micro was underdeveloped. SO from then on I actually kinda slumped into mid'ish masters (even though i practiced harder than ever before) and it didn't help that terrans were getting more and more nerfs. It took me a lot of time but at last I feel like I have "learned" the control and positioning part of the game to reach the higher part of masters. But I feel like my personal experience should be a warning for you, as you probably (today) is on a similar skill level that I was on a year ago. Dont rely too much on drops if you want to do well in ½ a year/1 year as well. Learn how to control units and be cost efficient in a straight up battle. Thx for advice. I'm aware of the fact that I can't rely on the drops doing any damage. But what I can rely on is that they at the very least force the opponent to divide his attention which will give me time to push across the map. If i just do a straight push towards a ling infestor ultra zerg I get rolled, and without drops he can expand freely.. This is what I have extracted from watching korean terrans. If they are not up vs mutas in TvZ every player will do drops like this. What is your take on this ?
There will come a time when you will face players who preemptively have a few lings at each base or some crawlers, and hence efficiently deal with drops. But yeh I would advice you to stop dropping against ultra/ling/infestor as a way to force your self to become efficient in a straight up battle. If you watch someone like Polt or any korean terrans they actually completely own that unit composition through great positioning and micro. A year ago I would get roflstomped by ultraling-infestor, today though its a lot better (like army-trading), but its still not good enough.
But I think your just delaying the inviatable by relying on drop. Even though a drop against non muta play is risk-free (and hence is a good option in competitive play) I think it will make you a better player in ½ months/1 year if you stopped trying to mass drop. Use your apm on setting up strong positions instead/being safe against counterattacks (when you move out).
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On April 02 2012 00:09 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 23:22 iksi wrote:On April 01 2012 22:24 ZenithM wrote:On April 01 2012 21:50 Hider wrote:
Yesterday I watched DJwheat play zerg. When DJwheat moved attacked he litterally take his control group og roaches and a click like 5-10 times on the opposing army. When he wanted to target fire a unit he would a-click the specific unit 5-10 times as well. WHen that unit died he would a-click the next unit in line a few times. There was no shif-attackclicking or anything that would make him 10 times more efficient. And he didn't seem to realize that the "micro" he tried to do, had no affect on the outcome of the battle.
Meanwhile his queens were nearing max energy (like 14 min into the game). When he finally would move back to his base he would for some reason only inject 2 of his 3 hatcheries (he did that repediately). These kind of mistakes were so obiviouus, and I estimated that he probably was a gold, maybe a platinum player.
Turned out he was diamond. I was litterally shocked. There is no way a diamond terran could be as bad as DJwheat (unless he 1 bases every game).
I remember watching a diamond terran play like 10 months ago and he actually looked pretty decent. Decent multitasking, speed, micro, macro. Of course he made a few misclicks, and he didn't build units often enough, but there are no doubt in my mind that his mechanics were a few levels above DJwheat, and that was 10 months back. Diamond terrans today that actually try to play macro games are much stronger than their zerg/toss counterparts. At master/gm it probably evens out a bit, but I can definitely understand the frustration that many platinum/diamond terran has, who actually try to work hard, and still can lose to someone like DJwheat (who might have had 100 apm, but probably around 40 eapm).
EDIT: The diamond terran whom I watched play, he played a gold league zerg whom I had seen play quite a lot of times earlier that day (IRL) as he sat just next to me. He definitely looked like a lower league player (like really slow and didn't seem to know what he should click on). When I first watched the diamond terran play I throught he looked a little worse than me, and probably like low-midish master. At the time I didn't know whom he was playing, and the game looked kinda close for some time, but in the end our diamond terran won. When I realized that it was the goldzerg he played against I was shocked (again!). There is no way that these 2 players should be battling it out in a 25-30 min macro game.
This diamond terran just deserved so much more. See, I don't get that man. I'm a diamond Terran (I just switched from diamond Protoss, so it's not like I've been playing Terran for a long time), and when I somehow face gold-plat Zergs in custom games, I crush them like it's nothing, as it should be. They can barely defend the first 4 hellions of a reactor hellion expand, haha. Seeing how this thread has evolved, it seems like it has somehow gotten acceptable to think that it's common knowledge that a Terran should be 2 leagues higher with another race or something (or at least 2 leagues better than his opponents). Well, it's not. A Terran one league higher than his opponent will win most of the time without breaking a sweat, no matter what the races are... At first it was "Terran may be a bit harder to play", not "Terran takes 4 times the skill" or "Man this diamond Terran was the sickest Korean gosu and he still lost T.T :'(" It always amazes me how short memory the Sc2 community has. Since it is infact common knowledge that Terrans need to be alot better players to be able to get the wins. You are propably already furiously shouting at your home that Im wrong so I even did the digging for you. So you dont have to take my word.. or anyones word here for it. Here, see this link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3963916702I want to quote Blizzard themselfs. Especially the parts : 1) ' zerg is not struggling at any level of play, and their win ratio compared to skill is extremely solid at every skill level' 2) 'we are aware that at lower levels of play, terran isn’t performing as well as they are at the pro level and we’re examining different solutions to deal with that issue' I even highlighted the important parts for you. So yes. As Blizzard states, they are aware. Wich means its common knowledge. If you chooce ignore the facts & dont want to listen the community who offers their opinions. Then listen Blizzards. And if you dont want to listen them. I dont think any amount of proof or any argument is going to stand against your beliefs. Its like arguing with religious people. My memory seems to go even further back than yours apparently. Because at SC2's release, it was common knowledge that Terran was, as we like to say, "OP as fuck". And from Blizzard's statements (which I read when they were released), you drew this conclusion: "it is infact common knowledge that Terrans need to be alot better players to be able to get the wins", seems a bit blindly religiously fanatic to me... Can you like not think all in black and white? Just because I'm defending the fact that Terrans don't need 2 leagues over their opponents to win an even game doesn't mean that I think they have it easy. I said the thread started with "it's a bit harder for Terrans" and I was quite ok with it at the time, but now it has gotten quite ridiculous. No, people, diamond terrans don't lose to fucking gold zerg players. But yes, they may have trouble in lategame with both their vZ and vP matchups. I hope I (Terran player) won't get called out again (by other Terran players) for stating that diamond Terrans win easily against gold leaguers. Imagine how the other races must laugh at us right now.
Was that what you got from my post? Obivously diamond players genereally dont lose to gold league players. Thats why they are in diamond and the other guy is in gold league.
What you should get from my post is how little effort it seemed to actually be reosonable efficient with zerg compared to the skill requirement to win with terran.
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I've been thinking a bit about the unwinnable TvP matchup. I've won 100+ ladder games in season 6 and I made some observations.
I've played many games against platinum and diamond level toss. First part is not that surprising
- go 1-1-1 - most likely win
- go anything else - most likely loose
I've noticed some symmetry between this early-mid game engagement (1-1-1 vs toss) and the standard toss vs terran lategame (ht / colossus / gateway ball vs whatever).
In both cases all you need to do is spread out your army well to minimize slash damage, snipe the big damage dealers and bam! In a perfect world you're heading for an easy victory...
In the 1-1-1 there are the tanks that splash the enemy army, banshees which deal damage quickly and the marine/scv meatshield. Somehow it becomes so very hard for the toss player to do this simple things: snipe, spread out, engage at a good angle. Very often he straight out looses, ragequits, cries imba BM cheese and other funky stuff.,
So, dealing with 1-1-1 requires the same skills from the toss the terran has to have while dealing with toss late-game army. In most cases the toss does not have them.
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Terran is after all in both games, SC2 and BW to be considered the hardest race to play. While as Protoss is the easiest (considered widely as the starter race and an a-move race even in BW till SC2), (Relatively) It's really just a part of playing the game as the race, It will be more challenging for the Terran to win games than the other races, which doesn't exactly quote imbalance, but gives it the unique play style that is ....Terran. Just a part of playing the game, other terrans do have the option to switch to one of the easier race is they so do desire
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Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible?
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On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible?
I think it is also a NA vs EU issue.
His opponent in a ZvT didn't look very good either.
I think most EU diamonds would own both him and his opponent given what I saw.
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On April 02 2012 02:29 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? I think it is also a NA vs EU issue. His opponent in a ZvT didn't look very good either. I think most EU diamonds would own both him and his opponent given what I saw.
Perhaps, it's not easy to compare my own mechanics to that of another dia player but I would say mine are allot better. But again it's hard to judge. I sometimes watch streams of low masters player and am amazed at how bad their mechanics are, but they might have good decision making. I figure DJWheat as a caster probably knows more about the game compared to the time he has to play it.
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On April 02 2012 02:29 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? I think it is also a NA vs EU issue. His opponent in a ZvT didn't look very good either. I think most EU diamonds would own both him and his opponent given what I saw.
NA is like 50 point worse I think. Not that big a difference. Anyway the tvz I saw at Tal darim looked (From the terran perspective) much like I would expect. The terran players macro failed when he tried to some drop play, but was pretty decent when he was just defending. Djwheats macro was terrible through the whole game best illustrated that he got behind like 110 to 60 food even though he defended harass well.
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On April 02 2012 02:37 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:29 one-one-one wrote:On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? I think it is also a NA vs EU issue. His opponent in a ZvT didn't look very good either. I think most EU diamonds would own both him and his opponent given what I saw. Perhaps, it's not easy to compare my own mechanics to that of another dia player but I would say mine are allot better. But again it's hard to judge. I sometimes watch streams of low masters player and am amazed at how bad their mechanics are, but they might have good decision making. I figure DJWheat as a caster probably knows more about the game compared to the time he has to play it.
I think decision making and positioning in SC2 play a larger role that a lot of people think. Wheat has some good decision making and is very active with this units, which comes at the price of his macro. I just watched him beat a protoss who by denying his third base and doing a few 2 pronged attacked with mutas and roaches. By the end of it he had a pretty impressive bank of minerals and gas.
At the casual level, I don't think we can expect everyone to have equal skill in everything. I have a zerg practice partner who has very good micro with roaches and mutas but his macro is sort of lacking. My macro is stronger as a protoss but my control beyond force fields is lacking. We are both in the same league. He favors more aggressive builds, I like to see if I can get a good foundation before trying to end him.
If someone beats you with a two pronged attack, but you kept you money low with solid macro, are you the better player? If you get lucky, hold off the that aggression and macro up to the point where you can 1a over their army, are they the better player? I don't think judging someone solely on their micro or macro is a far way assess their over all skill level.
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On April 02 2012 02:52 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:29 one-one-one wrote:On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? I think it is also a NA vs EU issue. His opponent in a ZvT didn't look very good either. I think most EU diamonds would own both him and his opponent given what I saw. NA is like 50 point worse I think. Not that big a difference. Anyway the tvz I saw at Tal darim looked (From the terran perspective) much like I would expect. The terran players macro failed when he tried to some drop play, but was pretty decent when he was just defending. Djwheats macro was terrible through the whole game best illustrated that he got behind like 110 to 60 food even though he defended harass well.
It has got to be a lot more than 50 points!
Dude, djWheat gets his 3rd base up at like 15 minutes, then looses it.... and the game goes on cos his terran opponent can't finish him off. His creep spread doesn't exist. His micro is outright awful.
The diamond zergs I face on EU ladder are mechanically superior by a huge margin.
They wont loose their third base like he did, they will have creep all over the place, they wont be supply blocked at 118 for a whole minute at the 14 minute mark like wheat. And besides. They will have more than 118 food at that time 
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On April 02 2012 03:02 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:52 Hider wrote:On April 02 2012 02:29 one-one-one wrote:On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? I think it is also a NA vs EU issue. His opponent in a ZvT didn't look very good either. I think most EU diamonds would own both him and his opponent given what I saw. NA is like 50 point worse I think. Not that big a difference. Anyway the tvz I saw at Tal darim looked (From the terran perspective) much like I would expect. The terran players macro failed when he tried to some drop play, but was pretty decent when he was just defending. Djwheats macro was terrible through the whole game best illustrated that he got behind like 110 to 60 food even though he defended harass well. It has got to be a lot more than 50 points! Dude, djWheat gets his 3rd base up at like 15 minutes, then looses it.... and the game goes on cos his terran opponent can't finish him off. His creep spread doesn't exist. His micro is outright awful. The diamond zergs I face on EU ladder are mechanically superior by a huge margin. They wont loose their third base like he did, they will have creep all over the place, they wont be supply blocked at 118 for a whole minute at the 14 minute mark like wheat. And besides. They will have more than 118 food at that time
I played a lot on both servers. Genereally I had around 0-100 point more on NA. I think 50 point is pretty decent estimate. I know others who had similar experiences.
But what confuses me is that DJ wheat is still somehwat highly ranked in his divsion. It has to be a really awfull division I guess (meaning he is in the low diamond range).
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On April 02 2012 02:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 02:37 Bojas wrote:On April 02 2012 02:29 one-one-one wrote:On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? I think it is also a NA vs EU issue. His opponent in a ZvT didn't look very good either. I think most EU diamonds would own both him and his opponent given what I saw. Perhaps, it's not easy to compare my own mechanics to that of another dia player but I would say mine are allot better. But again it's hard to judge. I sometimes watch streams of low masters player and am amazed at how bad their mechanics are, but they might have good decision making. I figure DJWheat as a caster probably knows more about the game compared to the time he has to play it. I think decision making and positioning in SC2 play a larger role that a lot of people think. Wheat has some good decision making and is very active with this units, which comes at the price of his macro. I just watched him beat a protoss who by denying his third base and doing a few 2 pronged attacked with mutas and roaches. By the end of it he had a pretty impressive bank of minerals and gas. At the casual level, I don't think we can expect everyone to have equal skill in everything. I have a zerg practice partner who has very good micro with roaches and mutas but his macro is sort of lacking. My macro is stronger as a protoss but my control beyond force fields is lacking. We are both in the same league. He favors more aggressive builds, I like to see if I can get a good foundation before trying to end him. If someone beats you with a two pronged attack, but you kept you money low with solid macro, are you the better player? If you get lucky, hold off the that aggression and macro up to the point where you can 1a over their army, are they the better player? I don't think judging someone solely on their micro or macro is a far way assess their over all skill level.
Wheat is NOT active with his units. He barely ever takes watch towers or try to scout for other expansions than natural or 3rd. IMO this is what one would expect a diamond zerg to do (but perhaps not a gold / plat zerg).
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On April 02 2012 03:05 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:02 one-one-one wrote:On April 02 2012 02:52 Hider wrote:On April 02 2012 02:29 one-one-one wrote:On April 02 2012 02:08 Hider wrote:
Djwheat is streaming now. Can some diamond terrans tell me if they feel they are of equal mechanical skill as him?
When I think back to my skill level of 12-18 months ago there were a shitton of things I didn't do very well. But my macro was very solid back then. I could do drops pretty well, and I felt comfortable with control groups. Djwheat just looks much worse than me back then in these areas. But maybe I am just misestimating the skill level of diamonds?
Regarding unit control? What unit control. He can get of some decent fungals here and there and pull his mutalisk out of the way. But this just seems extremely easy.
EDIT: one example. He just had 3,3k minerals/800 gas ( I think) on 2 bases + 2 macro hatches. How the hell is that possible? I think it is also a NA vs EU issue. His opponent in a ZvT didn't look very good either. I think most EU diamonds would own both him and his opponent given what I saw. NA is like 50 point worse I think. Not that big a difference. Anyway the tvz I saw at Tal darim looked (From the terran perspective) much like I would expect. The terran players macro failed when he tried to some drop play, but was pretty decent when he was just defending. Djwheats macro was terrible through the whole game best illustrated that he got behind like 110 to 60 food even though he defended harass well. It has got to be a lot more than 50 points! Dude, djWheat gets his 3rd base up at like 15 minutes, then looses it.... and the game goes on cos his terran opponent can't finish him off. His creep spread doesn't exist. His micro is outright awful. The diamond zergs I face on EU ladder are mechanically superior by a huge margin. They wont loose their third base like he did, they will have creep all over the place, they wont be supply blocked at 118 for a whole minute at the 14 minute mark like wheat. And besides. They will have more than 118 food at that time I played a lot on both servers. Genereally I had around 0-100 point more on NA. I think 50 point is pretty decent estimate. I know others who had similar experiences.
Well, points only tell you so much about actual skill. I would also be very careful with comparing points between servers.
And I take it you played on master level?
The difference in skill level has to get smaller and smaller the higher up in the leagues
Try to find a diamond zerg streamer on EU and you will see the difference yourself.
edit: but still I agree with what you are trying to prove, namely that the micro/macro and multitasking needed to stop a diamond zerg is harder to execute for the terran. DjWheat as an example is bad, cos he would be low diamond or platinum on EU. Not rank 10-ish as he is now.
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If you're playing casually you don't care if you win or lose
Yeah okay guy, solid argument there. Plus, when people say "casual gaming" they are generally referring to "non-pro" I don't compete in any tournaments so I don't conisder myself a "competitive" player, I consider myself a "casual player" but its not like Im sitting on my lawn chair with a margarita out on my deck playing with my laptop while reading the news paper and screaming imbalance. I am a master level player and there is no such thing as an "easy" game and yes, I try very hard to improve my game and play better, and yes, I care if I win or lose.
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On April 02 2012 03:14 XquisiteWretch wrote:Yeah okay guy, solid argument there. Plus, when people say "casual gaming" they are generally referring to "non-pro" I don't compete in any tournaments so I don't conisder myself a "competitive" player, I consider myself a "casual player" but its not like Im sitting on my lawn chair with a margarita out on my deck playing with my laptop while reading the news paper and screaming imbalance. I am a master level player and there is no such thing as an "easy" game and yes, I try very hard to improve my game and play better, and yes, I care if I win or lose.
To add to that, just because I am a casual player doesn't mean my opinion, or more importantly, my money is not important to blizzard. I realize they probably dont give a fuck what I think about balance but they will care if I stop playing and dont drop $60+ on an expansion to a game that has become a pain in the ass to play and actually enjoy, imbalance or not, some of the mechanics/matchups/game scenarios are so fucking irritating the game loses its fun often for me. /rant
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EPT
