EPTWhere did all of the terrans go? - Page 182
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
On April 02 2012 20:12 padfoota wrote: I find it really funny that I see this thread all the time when i have tvt ~45% of the time on ladder hahahah I've been seeing more and more Terran on the ladder too. Which sucks since my TvT is terrible most of the time, but is also good because I can't beat protoss lol | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On April 02 2012 20:24 magnaflow wrote: I've been seeing more and more Terran on the ladder too. Which sucks since my TvT is terrible most of the time, but is also good because I can't beat protoss lol Let's hope this is a trend, but still post your stats. | ||
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YoBroSup
United States8 Posts
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On April 02 2012 19:55 Bommes wrote: Whining is all about group dynamics. Others say its impossible to win in TvX and everything is shit? Oh, I just had a losing streak on ladder? GUESS WHAT I WILL JUST QQ MY HEART OUT IN THE FORUMS. I don't see how the terran community should get more credibility than anyone else. Well, if there was a problem with TvP, who would complain? Zergs? I mean really. And the issue isn't so much that it's unplayable, because most Terrans admit that the early game is favored towards Terran, it's just that the lategame is very Protoss favored, and the culture of foreign Starcraft is such that if you win a game before 15 minutes you're a worthless scrubby cheesing faggot who can't play the game. I think Terran players are mad that the proper way to play TvP right now is risky attacks that makes everyone hate them irrationally. I mean, if their arguments don't gain credibility when the prevailing attitude is "make Terran worse in the early game so you can buff it in the lategame" I don't know what would. | ||
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Ktk
Korea (South)753 Posts
On April 03 2012 04:34 LavaLava wrote: Well, if there was a problem with TvP, who would complain? Zergs? I mean really. And the issue isn't so much that it's unplayable, because most Terrans admit that the early game is favored towards Terran, it's just that the lategame is very Protoss favored, and the culture of foreign Starcraft is such that if you win a game before 15 minutes you're a worthless scrubby cheesing faggot who can't play the game. I think Terran players are mad that the proper way to play TvP right now is risky attacks that makes everyone hate them irrationally. I mean, if their arguments don't gain credibility when the prevailing attitude is "make Terran worse in the early game so you can buff it in the lategame" I don't know what would. All Terrans should throw that ideology out the window. If they die early they deserved and you're smart for cutting the game short and not wasting time dealing with greedy players. | ||
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Instigata
United States546 Posts
On April 03 2012 04:51 Ktk wrote: All Terrans should throw that ideology out the window. If they die early they deserved and you're smart for cutting the game short and not wasting time dealing with greedy players. I agree. I posted somewhere before how dumb it is that the only acceptable way to play this game is retarded. Building another base as your first building? 1 gate/rax into another base? People should go play farmville or simcity if they want to just build workers and bases. Hate the hate for 1base and even 2 base play. | ||
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Superneenja
United States154 Posts
In light of this thread I've started playing again, but ya 5 games in T is still not fun... and i don't think its surprising to see the T population diminishing. I've seen various people just on this thread say they quit or switched races, and I also was very close to switching as well(sadly just to have fun) I've seen a lot of "whine"(according to many of the toss that don't want to admit the fact that there are some underlying issues) for TvP and ZvP, so obviously T and Z OP? Give me a break. I still think T has to play at a league higher to beat a P in a lower league(Z to a certain extent as well)...IMO, but to all the toss I guess i'll just play more and play better. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 03 2012 05:16 Superneenja wrote: So basically from this thread is if you play terran and have problems with TvP, just play better? ...but I'm sure we want to have fun too, and its just not the case when playing P or Z. Theres not enough room to recover from a small mistake, and I don't know about other T's but im always stressed out making sure that 2 banelings or storms dont kill like half of my army. In light of this thread I've started playing again, but ya 5 games in T is still not fun... and i don't think its surprising to see the T population diminishing. I've seen various people just on this thread say they quit or switched races, and I also was very close to switching as well(sadly just to have fun) I've seen a lot of "whine"(according to many of the toss that don't want to admit the fact that there are some underlying issues) for TvP and ZvP, so obviously T and Z OP? Give me a break. I still think T has to play at a league higher to beat a P in a lower league(Z to a certain extent as well)...IMO, but to all the toss I guess i'll just play more and play better. Well, from what I have gathered from this thread, there appears some terrans do not have a full understanding of the match up. Case and point is a few pages ago when the topic of picking off observers was brought up. Several terrans players posted that they did not feel it was worth a scan it to snipe an observer. This was meet with the response from all protoss players and TypeNaruto to “kill all observers, all the time”. Personally I found this surprising, since denying information is one of terran’s main strengths and it was strange players would not exploit that. With protoss, this sort of information and their ability to gather it allows them to make decisions on when to expand, how to spend chrono boost and what units to make. That on top of knowing where the terran army is, which is the most important information of all. It seemed weird that some players just assumed that a mule was more important than denying this information. I am not saying everyone who is having issues is bad, but there do appear some points where player goals in the match up seem off. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On April 03 2012 05:39 Plansix wrote: With protoss, this sort of information and their ability to gather it allows them to make decisions on when to expand, how to spend chrono boost and what units to make. I had to smile at that. You chronoboost your standard expansion sequence, then you focus on the robo, and upgrades. In emergencies if you forgot to macro you spend it on your warp gates instead. This all you can per-determine from the moment your probe enteres the terran base (and if you aren't greedy you will always get the intel if there is gas or not by the terran). Yeah.. when to expand is an important decision and very tricky and relies on diligent scouting - NOT! You can easily realize with probe scout and stalker pressure when you can expand the first time. You just take the third at some point after the terran. The window you can take it without being behind is something like 'start your nexus up to a minute after their CC lands and you are fine'. And yeah... this really really fine balance to strike in ones composition. Get colossus or storm (you can flip a coin pregame for that). Get sufficient meat shield (20% of your food in zealots). You're golden. Just don't attack, hang back and get the other AoE thingy and 3/3. Get templar after 3-4 colossus or colossus after 4-6 storms and 2-3 archons. There you have your recipe to win your macro game up to low-mid master league. Your observer never has to enter their base. What on earth would you see that would change what you make? Maybe if they go straight to battlecruiser.. then a-move right away and don't tech to colosssus. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On April 03 2012 05:39 Plansix wrote: Well, from what I have gathered from this thread, there appears some terrans do not have a full understanding of the match up. Case and point is a few pages ago when the topic of picking off observers was brought up. Several terrans players posted that they did not feel it was worth a scan it to snipe an observer. This was meet with the response from all protoss players and TypeNaruto to “kill all observers, all the time”. Personally I found this surprising, since denying information is one of terran’s main strengths and it was strange players would not exploit that. With protoss, this sort of information and their ability to gather it allows them to make decisions on when to expand, how to spend chrono boost and what units to make. That on top of knowing where the terran army is, which is the most important information of all. It seemed weird that some players just assumed that a mule was more important than denying this information. I am not saying everyone who is having issues is bad, but there do appear some points where player goals in the match up seem off. Let me summarize your point: People in lower leagues don't play well. Now, this is obvious. It should even out in terms of gameplay that a bad T and a bad P would both make mistakes, but the game would remain even. It does not follow that every T in every league should play great to match against any P from any league. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On April 03 2012 05:39 Plansix wrote: Well, from what I have gathered from this thread, there appears some terrans do not have a full understanding of the match up. Case and point is a few pages ago when the topic of picking off observers was brought up. Several terrans players posted that they did not feel it was worth a scan it to snipe an observer. This was meet with the response from all protoss players and TypeNaruto to “kill all observers, all the time”. Personally I found this surprising, since denying information is one of terran’s main strengths and it was strange players would not exploit that. With protoss, this sort of information and their ability to gather it allows them to make decisions on when to expand, how to spend chrono boost and what units to make. That on top of knowing where the terran army is, which is the most important information of all. It seemed weird that some players just assumed that a mule was more important than denying this information. I am not saying everyone who is having issues is bad, but there do appear some points where player goals in the match up seem off. No Terran said a scan is not worth it. People are saying that with observer scouting, you most likely will get all the information before getting killed. Unless you dive observer right on Terran's nose, no mortal eyes can detect and kill observers 10 times out of 10 before they got in the base and scout all the information. | ||
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Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On April 03 2012 06:18 Ghanburighan wrote: Let me summarize your point: People in lower leagues don't play well. Now, this is obvious. It should even out in terms of gameplay that a bad T and a bad P would both make mistakes, but the game would remain even. It does not follow that every T in every league should play great to match against any P from any league. Ghanburighan understands the jist of what I'm saying, I was probably not as eloquent. I never considered myself a pro or a good player, but I was top 5 diamonds until patched mid season, I'm thinking season 3 or 4 and my record went to crap and i want to say it was around the whole chargelot, archon, HT epiphany. Terran walked a very fine line with Protoss even before the emp nerf imo, its just sad we are still walking it  ... but before that I can safely say I was on my way to high-mid masters(which was basically my goal at the time)...while I did have some success with early ghosts back at that time, people figured it out and there was really not much I could do.I have somewhat of the same feeling as Thrombozyt. I believe that observer is really convenient to know when T army pushes out but what really do you need to know other than that. T is limited against protoss, and I feel like the natural evolution of P army composition is the exact rape against a T, whereas T has to decide where they need to spend resources on. Also the whole TvP conversation kind of began with ppl saying it was hard late game, and I think this is true... so for people who are saying just all in or 1 base, ya this can be done, but how balanced is the game if we are only limited to the first 20mins of the game? I can 1/1/1 and 5 rax all in all day, but then wouldn't we hear protoss whine? I'm sure we would... just saying. Funny game yesterday, 4 colossus, 6 stalker, 10,000 chargelots...needless to say marines arent OP | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 03 2012 06:21 canikizu wrote: No Terran said a scan is not worth it. People are saying that with observer scouting, you most likely will get all the information before getting killed. Unless you dive observer right on Terran's nose, no mortal eyes can detect and kill observers 10 times out of 10 before they got in the base and scout all the information. You are correct, there is no way to 100% deny informtion for every race. But to get an advantage, you don't need to deny 100% information. Most protoss assume if you expanded that they are going to see some flavor of MMM. It can sometimes take a minute or more for a protoss's replacement to observer to get back where it needs to be. In games that last 15-20 minutes, that a huge amount of time. Anything could have happened at that point, a tech switchs, drops, a fast third base or a two base timing attack. More importantly, protoss players are saying "This is scary. When this happens, it slows me down and I need to worry about more things. I don't feel safe expanding if I don't have an observer in place watching their army. Replacing the observer is important and it makes the game harder when people snipe them". When zerg players said that early zealot/voidray pressure was scary, I did not respond with "Zealots are crap PvZ. Everyone knows that it is impossible to make them good". I responded with "Really? How?" | ||
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Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On April 03 2012 06:57 Plansix wrote: You are correct, there is no way to 100% deny informtion for every race. But to get an advantage, you don't need to deny 100% information. Most protoss assume if you expanded that they are going to see some flavor of MMM. It can sometimes take a minute or more for a protoss's replacement to observer to get back where it needs to be. In games that last 15-20 minutes, that a huge amount of time. Anything could have happened at that point, a tech switchs, drops, a fast third base or a two base timing attack. More importantly, protoss players are saying "This is scary. When this happens, it slows me down and I need to worry about more things. I don't feel safe expanding if I don't have an observer in place watching their army. Replacing the observer is important and it makes the game harder when people snipe them". When zerg players said that early zealot/voidray pressure was scary, I did not respond with "Zealots are crap PvZ. Everyone knows that it is impossible to make them good". I responded with "Really? How?" If the game has gottent to 15-20mins, usually the protoss is ahead or their army composition is just right to roll over the Terran(most of the time). Yes sniping the first observer might be important, but not as important as you think..and replacing is not as important as you think. And your talk about the tech switches, you are most likely talking about Protoss right? Because I've never seen a Terran tech switch within in 15-20mins of a game.(Its not easy, and while we are trying to switch you can win the game fairly easily). | ||
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Filter
Canada620 Posts
On April 03 2012 06:40 Superneenja wrote: Ghanburighan understands the jist of what I'm saying, I was probably not as eloquent. I never considered myself a pro or a good player, but I was top 5 diamonds until patched mid season, I'm thinking season 3 or 4 and my record went to crap and i want to say it was around the whole chargelot, archon, HT epiphany. Terran walked a very fine line with Protoss even before the emp nerf imo, its just sad we are still walking it ... but before that I can safely say I was on my way to high-mid masters(which was basically my goal at the time)...while I did have some success with early ghosts back at that time, people figured it out and there was really not much I could do.I have somewhat of the same feeling as Thrombozyt. I believe that observer is really convenient to know when T army pushes out but what really do you need to know other than that. T is limited against protoss, and I feel like the natural evolution of P army composition is the exact rape against a T, whereas T has to decide where they need to spend resources on. Also the whole TvP conversation kind of began with ppl saying it was hard late game, and I think this is true... so for people who are saying just all in or 1 base, ya this can be done, but how balanced is the game if we are only limited to the first 20mins of the game? I can 1/1/1 and 5 rax all in all day, but then wouldn't we hear protoss whine? I'm sure we would... just saying. Funny game yesterday, 4 colossus, 6 stalker, 10,000 chargelots...needless to say marines arent OP That just requires perfect micro, enough vikings to pick off the colli before you're backed up too far and a LOT of marines to kill the chargelots.. and even then it will be pretty iffy. I played a toss today that had 40 probes to my 57 scv's, no third until he attacked and 1200/500 resources at 9:40 compared to my basically zero. His army was chargelot/archon with +2 armor and I got absolutely smashed despite having the medivacs and ghosts just starting. It wasn't even remotely close. His build and his play was garbage, while mine was pretty textbook however a player like that gets rewarded for playing shitty because of the way protoss works, compared to terran where if you play well you still can get crushed. If the player was intending to take a third and played "correct" he would have had more probes etc and his army would have been small enough for me to hold. Terrans are whining because when protoss players play bad or "wrong" then you're fucked. Small mistakes compound heavily as Terran too, miss your window on an upgrade by 30-45 seconds and you'll get stomped but if the toss does the same he simply just makes more units. The lategame death ball requires extreme perfection to kill off, has to be done in pieces, gets reinforced by zealots and you can't be too heavy in one area of your army or you die but the correct unit comp shifts based on what the toss has. If he has 10 templar, 5 archons and 1 or 2 colli you need more than 6 or 7 ghosts and no more than 5 or 6 well upgarded vikings. If you only have 4 or 5 ghosts and 14 vikings you die. Protoss can also have 3 robo's/20 gates so that comp changes extremely fast. It's not a fun matchup for terran and it always feels awful when you lose whether that's to a 7gate all in, or a lategame deathball and especially when they other guy is just bad so you're reads give you the wrong information. | ||
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slane04
Canada23 Posts
I just wish there was a Terran late game unit in TvP that I could mass (around 5) while turtling, that requires little micro, that would make P have to react. I say no micro because I'm bad (honestly) and couldn't handle any more micro against a deathball. I barely scrape by as it is even when I have a better supplied army. They KNOW I'm going bio, but no unit I build past 15 minutes really changes a P's overall composition. Terran has to go ghost vs viking in P (HT/Archon vs Collosus) and in Z marauder/ghost vs. viking/ghost (Ultra/Infestor vs BL/Infestor) in Z. As the game progresses, T has to react or die. I'm not saying that P shouldn't have Collosus or other AOE units. In fact, P needs AOE to win in mid-late game. I guess I just wish there was a high tier Terran unit that the other races had to react to that would affect their late game composition (other than ghosts, they are already included in my late-game composition). This seems just have turned into a round-about rant wanting mech to be viable. Anyways. My win rate versus Protoss is actually quite high (prob ~60%). I've been fooling around with with a ghost expand build. It delays their expo for a little while mine is building and can hold off most P early aggression. The more successful, the more confidently I can focus on econ instead of my army, and later deny his third. Hell, somtimes it takes a 1gate expand by surprise for an easy win. So for Terrans at the lowly Platinum level, try it out. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
Mass banshee beat annything the protoss can field on the ground. Most protoss still think they can simply mass stalker to counter but they are wrong!, these are your victems. Banshee>stalker and banshee counters robo, but at the same time it also requires a robo to be build wich is a huge waste. The only thing they loose to is protoss air , but once they go air you can start massing the 2 units wich hard counter protoss air, marines and thors!. SO: go barrack factory double starport and start massing, marines in bunkers to defend  Hmm it probably is not so easy lol but i do think mass banshee combined with marines at start is a relativly unexplored area Its basicly 1-1-1 but without the tanks and more banshees | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On April 03 2012 05:16 Instigata wrote: I agree. I posted somewhere before how dumb it is that the only acceptable way to play this game is retarded. Building another base as your first building? 1 gate/rax into another base? People should go play farmville or simcity if they want to just build workers and bases. Hate the hate for 1base and even 2 base play. I agree as well. Every time I hear shit like "3 Base all in" I want to throw up. Although, when he says Terrans should throw that ideology out, he's right, but he makes it sound like it's just Terrans... while the other 75% of players are at least as likely to hold such biases towards short games and aggressive play. I think it's lame that Terran is essentially built as a more aggressive race right now, but all these people see aggression as 'dishonorable' and demand that Terrans wait until maxed 3/3 colossi before they try to kill a Protoss, for instance... which is a fucking stupid way to play unless you're top GM and can micro MMMGV with so few losses that you can actually overcome lategame warpins. Don't take that as whine, it's not meant to be, I'm just saying everyone knows it's easier to kill Protoss before they're powering critical masses of big ass splash units, which means the proper way to play is to hit sooner instead of later. I guess the point is that individual Terrans will either try to make it to the lategame and get shit for a lower winrate, or try to kill/damage earlier and get shit for being "all in". There's not really a way to play that pleases anybody. (so of course the proper response is to say fuck em and win games) | ||
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jax1
Sweden35 Posts
On April 02 2012 20:27 Ghanburighan wrote: Let's hope this is a trend, but still post your stats. why do you want a majority playing terran when your playing terran? | ||
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