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Love how people say they rarely see terrans anymore yet the sc2ranks show terrans at 1/4 instead of 1/3 which is lower but still nowhere close to the exaggerated bs coming from, mostly, terrans in this thread.
On March 11 2012 21:05 Kakaru2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 20:55 karpo wrote:On March 11 2012 20:51 kyllinghest wrote:On March 11 2012 20:07 tomatriedes wrote:On March 11 2012 19:39 Mehukannu wrote:On March 11 2012 19:33 Sated wrote:On March 11 2012 19:04 Laurens wrote:On March 11 2012 19:03 TENTHST wrote:
See, threads like this are a by-product of Blizzard making Terran stupidly overpowered in the first 6 months of this game.
Now, all of the "a a t a a a" bio players are crying because their abusive strategy that promoted them into diamond league no longer works.
Think about it like this: you get two aspiring baseball players. you give one a corked bat and another a standard bat. the kid with the corked bat seems to be a much better player than the kid with the regular bat.
but then, one day, you realize that its unfair that one has a corked bat while the other doesn't. so you take away the corked bat and force him to use an official bat, and suddenly he isn't performing so well. this, in turn, leads to frustration on his part, and he declares baseball an unbalanced game which causes him to quit it forever. Not a single T GSL winner in the first 6 months of the game ... stupidly overpowered hmm? Bisu: "If you're asking for my opinion, then no. Reviews seem to be calling it Terran-World. It'd be nice if they worked on the balance a little bit. If Terran continues to win like this, who is going to play that game? If you're going to make Protoss such a weak race, might as well get rid of it. It's quite saddening. But, if I had to make the switch to Starcraft 2, I probably would play Protoss. (laughs)" This opinion on balance when the game was young > You. Yeah, because the balance and player skill right now is completely same like it was at the release. Anyway I don't think any amount of patching is going to fix TvP without breaking the balance of the other match ups. It is better to wait for either a ''metagame'' switch or for the expansion to fix things up. Who says it needs 'fixing'? Protoss has an advantage late game but terran has an advantage mid game. You want terran to have an advantage at all stages of the game? The game is much more balanced than it was back in August when Korean terrans were almost 70-30 over protoss. Now it's only 54-46 in favor of toss- definitely within the bounds of what I would consider balanced. If it was 54-46 the other way I would have no problem with that either. Terrans just got used to seeing other terrans winning every top tournament. Now that they're only winning about a third of them they think there's something wrong but in actuality balance has improved. Also It should be so clear to people that you can't balance for lower leagues- you have to aim for the top with balance otherwise we'll end up with every pro player choosing the same race. How much fun would that be? And look at the example of Byun- if it were true that terran is really exponentially harder than other races he would have failed hard when he switched from toss to terran and dropped out of progaming. In fact he is continuing to compete at a high level as a pro (albeit after a break due to the coca incident) and recently beat some top protosses in GSTL. In the end if you guys think your race is what's holding you back from GM or whatever go ahead and try another race and see what it's like. You may find it's not such a cakewalk as you think. I think most people agree the matchup isn't imbalanced, however I find it alarming that its so much easier to play one side of it than the other (yes Im random), it shouldn't be like that. Protoss two-base timings are so easy to excecute, and if you don't identify the threat you die. Protoss lategame is near unstoppable, unless you are way ahead. The colossus is a walking siege tank, only way better and it doesn't get stomped by zealots. In no way do I feel protoss is better than terran, but it is surely easier, as seen especially in the NA and EU scene (where almost no terrans are in the top). "Everything protoss has is better, easier, and stronger... But i'm not balance whining". That's what i got from your post. Why do you put words in his mouth which aren't true? his only grief was about the colossus, yet you knowingly had put in your text "everything".
This is what he said:
Two base timings are easy to execute and kill terrans if they're not careful.
Protoss lategame is nearly unstoppable unless the terran is way ahead.
The Colossus is overpowered (more or less)
Sounds like he's saying protoss is overpowered to me. If you think two base play is easy and kills terrans and that endgame is almost unstoppable you're basically saying the matchup is imbalanced, no need to lie about it.
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Doesn't anyone think it's actually interesting that for ALL races in this Poll Terran is the least scary race by far? We now have several houndred votes for each race and every race, even Terrans itself, consider Terran as least scary. Is that by coincidence?
I don't think so.
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This is not an exhaggeration - out of about 80 games I played as protoss this season at high diamond, only about 12-14 were PvTs. It is that bad. Terran isn't weak by any means, but it's the race that benefits highest from a lot of practice and has the best means of transferring skill into victories, however no one below high master has any real skill, hence why it's only natural that terrans who don't play 15+ games a day struggle so much.
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Terran was the strongest race since release for a very, very long time - it's only natural that now, after things are getting more balanced, the weaker terrans lose more, simply because they were at a MMR that was higher than their skill.
If any terran feels offended by this, just take the extreme example of someone just abusing 111 vs toss and double rax marine/bunker vs zerg. It's clear that now he will drop (will have dropped).
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Hi TL! 
If find the outcome of the OP's polls interesting:
+ Show Spoiler +On March 11 2012 11:15 NoctemSC wrote:Poll: Terran, what is your weakest matchup?TvP (1774) 60% TvZ (693) 24% TvT (477) 16% 2944 total votes Your vote: Terran, what is your weakest matchup? (Vote): TvT
(Vote): TvZ
(Vote): TvP
Poll: Zerg, what is your weakest matchup?ZvP (1044) 51% ZvZ (564) 27% ZvT (445) 22% 2053 total votes Your vote: Zerg, what is your weakest matchup? (Vote): ZvZ
(Vote): ZvT
(Vote): ZvP
Currently, 63% of Terrans say that TvP is their weakest matchup and 53% of Zerg say that it is ZvP. Due to the mechanics of Blizzard's matchmaking system, this is not a stable state! Such a state can happen for maybe two weeks, but the effect of this would be that many protoss players would climb up in their MMR rating, causing them to face harder Zerg and Terran players. Weakest matchup statistics would even out quickly. But to me it seems like feelings about weakest matchups of Zergs and Terrans like expressed in the polls have been this way for some time now (for example observable in posts of TL users related to balance).
Why could this be the case? Are those difficulty feelings not directly linked to winrates? Are Teamliquid users not a representative group, and outside of TL, for example, Zergs smash Protosses left and right?
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On March 11 2012 21:15 sleepingdog wrote:
Terran was the strongest race since release for a very, very long time - it's only natural that now, after things are getting more balanced, the weaker terrans lose more, simply because they were at a MMR that was higher than their skill.
If any terran feels offended by this, just take the extreme example of someone just abusing 111 vs toss and double rax marine/bunker vs zerg. It's clear that now he will drop (will have dropped).
And what about the houndreds of abusive protoss allins? Shouldn't they be balanced out as well? Or is it ok to abuse protoss, but not to abuse terran? I don't get your point!
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On March 11 2012 21:15 sleepingdog wrote:
Terran was the strongest race since release for a very, very long time - it's only natural that now, after things are getting more balanced, the weaker terrans lose more, simply because they were at a MMR that was higher than their skill.
If any terran feels offended by this, just take the extreme example of someone just abusing 111 vs toss and double rax marine/bunker vs zerg. It's clear that now he will drop (will have dropped).
You say marine bunker is ment to kill the zerg, you seem to fail to understand the matchup. 111 has been a more recent phenomena, does using it really mean that terrans forgot how to macro? TvP isn't the only matchup in the game :p
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On March 11 2012 21:16 opus55 wrote:Hi TL! If find the outcome of the OP's polls interesting: + Show Spoiler +On March 11 2012 11:15 NoctemSC wrote:Poll: Terran, what is your weakest matchup?TvP (1774) 60% TvZ (693) 24% TvT (477) 16% 2944 total votes Your vote: Terran, what is your weakest matchup? (Vote): TvT
(Vote): TvZ
(Vote): TvP
Poll: Zerg, what is your weakest matchup?ZvP (1044) 51% ZvZ (564) 27% ZvT (445) 22% 2053 total votes Your vote: Zerg, what is your weakest matchup? (Vote): ZvZ
(Vote): ZvT
(Vote): ZvP
Currently, 63% of Terrans say that TvP is their weakest matchup and 53% of Zerg say that it is ZvP. Due to the mechanics of Blizzard's matchmaking system, this is not a stable state! Such a state can happen for maybe two weeks, but the effect of this would be that many protoss players would climb up in their MMR rating, causing them to face harder Zerg and Terran players. Weakest matchup statistics would even out quickly. But to me it seems like feelings about weakest matchups of Zergs and Terrans like expressed in the polls have been this way for some time now (for example observable in posts of TL users related to balance). Why could this be the case? Are those difficulty feelings not directly linked to winrates? Are Teamliquid users not a representative group, and outside of TL, for example, Zergs smash Protosses left and right?
There is still 44% of Protoss who say that PvZ is their weakest matchup. Did you forget that? Imo it cancels out any meaningful insight the "53% ZvP weakest" might have brought.
63% of Terrans saying TvP is their weakest matchup is a bit concerning, however.
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Couldn't it simply be that a lot of players started out as Terran since SC2 single-player games revolves around the Terran world, and now more and more players are trying some other races. It could also be due to the recent trend where there are more foreign "idols" playing Zerg or Protoss; this takes away some of the Terran players from the ladder. 
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I think a lot of the lower league terrans (aka bronze-diamond) struggle with tvp a lot, and since all most people seem to care about are wins, they simply switch races instead of getting better.
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On March 11 2012 21:22 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 21:16 opus55 wrote:Hi TL! If find the outcome of the OP's polls interesting: + Show Spoiler +On March 11 2012 11:15 NoctemSC wrote:Poll: Terran, what is your weakest matchup?TvP (1774) 60% TvZ (693) 24% TvT (477) 16% 2944 total votes Your vote: Terran, what is your weakest matchup? (Vote): TvT
(Vote): TvZ
(Vote): TvP
Poll: Zerg, what is your weakest matchup?ZvP (1044) 51% ZvZ (564) 27% ZvT (445) 22% 2053 total votes Your vote: Zerg, what is your weakest matchup? (Vote): ZvZ
(Vote): ZvT
(Vote): ZvP
Currently, 63% of Terrans say that TvP is their weakest matchup and 53% of Zerg say that it is ZvP. Due to the mechanics of Blizzard's matchmaking system, this is not a stable state! Such a state can happen for maybe two weeks, but the effect of this would be that many protoss players would climb up in their MMR rating, causing them to face harder Zerg and Terran players. Weakest matchup statistics would even out quickly. But to me it seems like feelings about weakest matchups of Zergs and Terrans like expressed in the polls have been this way for some time now (for example observable in posts of TL users related to balance). Why could this be the case? Are those difficulty feelings not directly linked to winrates? Are Teamliquid users not a representative group, and outside of TL, for example, Zergs smash Protosses left and right? There is still 44% of Protoss who say that PvZ is their weakest matchup. Did you forget that? Imo it cancels out any meaningful insight the "53% ZvP weakest" might have brought.
No, I didn't forget that - but it seems that Zergs' feelings about ZvP are even stronger than Protoss' feelings about PvZ, since 53% is much more than 44% (you would normally expect 33% for every matchup, and 44% is not that far from this value while 53% is a lot, imho).
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I switched from Protoss to Terran 2 or 3 months ago, though T was more fun to play... and it is. But now... TvP, hard? Are you kidding me, I fucking love TvP, it's my best matchup... Of course, I'm only in Plat, but still, it's such a fun matchup... My worst is TvT, especially against mech.
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Those polls show nothing really. There's no control and anyone can vote even though they never play the race in question.
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Terran late game is a joke while the early game is slightly stronger. That was blizzards way of getting "50/50" balance. Win before the 20 minute mark or lose 80% of the time. This is where the problem is in SC2.
Either way, blizzard not only patches too often but I just want my siege tank back and maybe some spider mines. The current tank is a joke... 35 damage to zealots/archons with 3 cooldown and 3 supply. At least the goliath's cousin is coming back eventually. I read so much QQ about marines and marauders when that is honestly all we have that isn't nerfed to shreds. Protoss/zerg deathballs roll terran lategame even more now with the ghost nerf unless they throw the game away or have an early disadvantage.
Also, since terran is the most difficult to play well, it'll always be played a bit less than the other two races. You can't change that and it should just be accepted.
I won't even mention all the T hate that filled this game forever and only now people realizing how much it was blown out of proportion. At least we can all get to the kiss and make up part. : P
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On March 11 2012 21:16 opus55 wrote:
Why could this be the case? Are those difficulty feelings not directly linked to winrates?
I would say difficulty feelings are directly linked to winrates, but not with a 100% ratio -> it's not because you feel that matchup is hard that you will necessarily lose. On the same token, feeling it's the hardest, the more demanding, means that's you're probably going to lose it quite a bunch (your mistakes being punished the hardest).
Given that, I'd say the link between "difficulty feelings" and "winrates" should hover around 75%.
That should temper/stabilize your statistics concerns.
On March 11 2012 21:16 opus55 wrote:
Are Teamliquid users not a representative group, and outside of TL, for example, Zergs smash Protosses left and right?
I don't see how that would be. There's no selection upon entering TL, every one is free to join and participate provided they have basic English understanding.
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On March 11 2012 21:30 karpo wrote:
Those polls show nothing really. There's no control and anyone can vote even though they never play the race in question.
LOL, Tell us who was really behind 9/11?
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Those polls are stupid. Anyway, this isn't the first one such a topic was openend on Teamliquid. TvP is just really hard and it shows I guess.
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On March 11 2012 21:33 narkissos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 21:30 karpo wrote:
Those polls show nothing really. There's no control and anyone can vote even though they never play the race in question. LOL, Tell us who was really behind 9/11?
Wut? I just went back to the OP and voted for mirror matchups being hardest for all races. Do i know shit about ZvZ or PvP? No. Doesn't stop me from voting and later people base arguments on the statistics even though no one knows how believable it is.
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My completely factless feeling is that terran have just been extreemly overrepresentated and slowly but steadily people have gotten bored and decided to try out another race.
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imo protoss is a little easier because to defend is easier than to attack and protoss can just defend untill 200
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EPT
