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On March 11 2012 18:58 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 18:20 MandoRelease wrote:On March 11 2012 18:19 VoO wrote:On March 11 2012 18:12 MandoRelease wrote:On March 11 2012 17:22 MockHamill wrote:
There are 4 core skills in this game:
Macro
Micro
Multitasking
Decision making
At GSL level you need all 4 at high level for all of the races. For Terran you need all 4 even at lower levels, while Macro and Decision making is sufficient for most Zerg/Protoss players. So it simply takes more skill to play Terran compared to Protoss and Zerg except at pro level where it evens out.
I would very much like see what facts do you use to base your opinion. Afaik what you said is simply not true, and it just seem that it is what Terran players choose to think because they can't handle that their race used to be by far the easiest to play because it used to be by far the strongest. With no intention of being rude or whiny, let me say this. My personnal opinion is that it has been really hard for Terran player to accept that their ~50% wins (Bnet ladder experience) used to be because of their race and not because of their skill. At the time, P&Z requiered more skill to play to place in the same league as T. I don't believe there was an actual shift in skill requierement to place in the same league, things actually evened out. Which means that Terran players need to do more things now that they used to. And it doesn't mean that they need to do more than Z or P players. I know, I know, some of you will call me delusional, like always, if that's the case, please don't bother replying. Which league do you play in? Lowest of master, EU. Okay this is my personal experience and feeling regarding the effort it requires to play a specific race. I'm currently high master Terran, master Protoss, high diamond Zerg: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oIlTA.png) Platinum P-T point: As Protoss I knew at this point how to defend Terran and Zerg all-ins, everything after that is just turtle into colossus timing or cheese - I have 82% winrate in PvT. Diamond Z Point: At this point I knew how to macro with Zerg and the timings which to expect High Diamond T-Z Point: I macro-overwhelm everything with, e.g. mass lings/infestor/ultra in TvZ.
I kinda agree with your view. I mean, I'm okay with Terran requiering more effort the more you go up, starting from master. I don't really know what to add, below master it seems like you're agreeing with me, to some extent. Because my ogirinal post was about how T is not more demanding than P or Z in lower leagues.
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I am really happy that there are less and less terrans so i don't have to play mirror mathes :D I also prepared and curently polishing my build order vs protoss that slows their t3 tech, I find TvT more challenging MU becouse of its sometimes slow pace and army positioning
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On March 11 2012 19:33 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 19:04 Laurens wrote:On March 11 2012 19:03 TENTHST wrote:
See, threads like this are a by-product of Blizzard making Terran stupidly overpowered in the first 6 months of this game.
Now, all of the "a a t a a a" bio players are crying because their abusive strategy that promoted them into diamond league no longer works.
Think about it like this: you get two aspiring baseball players. you give one a corked bat and another a standard bat. the kid with the corked bat seems to be a much better player than the kid with the regular bat.
but then, one day, you realize that its unfair that one has a corked bat while the other doesn't. so you take away the corked bat and force him to use an official bat, and suddenly he isn't performing so well. this, in turn, leads to frustration on his part, and he declares baseball an unbalanced game which causes him to quit it forever. Not a single T GSL winner in the first 6 months of the game ... stupidly overpowered hmm? Bisu: "If you're asking for my opinion, then no. Reviews seem to be calling it Terran-World. It'd be nice if they worked on the balance a little bit. If Terran continues to win like this, who is going to play that game? If you're going to make Protoss such a weak race, might as well get rid of it. It's quite saddening. But, if I had to make the switch to Starcraft 2, I probably would play Protoss. (laughs)" This opinion on balance when the game was young > You.
Yeah, because the balance and player skill right now is completely same like it was at the release.
Anyway I don't think any amount of patching is going to fix TvP without breaking the balance of the other match ups. It is better to wait for either a ''metagame'' switch or for the expansion to fix things up.
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On March 11 2012 19:33 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 19:04 Laurens wrote:On March 11 2012 19:03 TENTHST wrote:
See, threads like this are a by-product of Blizzard making Terran stupidly overpowered in the first 6 months of this game.
Now, all of the "a a t a a a" bio players are crying because their abusive strategy that promoted them into diamond league no longer works.
Think about it like this: you get two aspiring baseball players. you give one a corked bat and another a standard bat. the kid with the corked bat seems to be a much better player than the kid with the regular bat.
but then, one day, you realize that its unfair that one has a corked bat while the other doesn't. so you take away the corked bat and force him to use an official bat, and suddenly he isn't performing so well. this, in turn, leads to frustration on his part, and he declares baseball an unbalanced game which causes him to quit it forever. Not a single T GSL winner in the first 6 months of the game ... stupidly overpowered hmm? Bisu: "If you're asking for my opinion, then no. Reviews seem to be calling it Terran-World. It'd be nice if they worked on the balance a little bit. If Terran continues to win like this, who is going to play that game? If you're going to make Protoss such a weak race, might as well get rid of it. It's quite saddening. But, if I had to make the switch to Starcraft 2, I probably would play Protoss. (laughs)" This opinion on balance when the game was young > You.
So the guy presents at least somewhat of an arguement and your comeback is a quote from Bisu, who doesn't play the game AND plays protoss.
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On March 11 2012 19:33 Sated wrote:
[
Bisu: "If you're asking for my opinion, then no. Reviews seem to be calling it Terran-World. It'd be nice if they worked on the balance a little bit. If Terran continues to win like this, who is going to play that game? If you're going to make Protoss such a weak race, might as well get rid of it. It's quite saddening. But, if I had to make the switch to Starcraft 2, I probably would play Protoss. (laughs)"
This opinion on balance when the game was young > You.
"Reviews seem to be calling it..."
That's a very educated opinion:D
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On March 11 2012 19:49 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 19:33 Sated wrote:On March 11 2012 19:04 Laurens wrote:On March 11 2012 19:03 TENTHST wrote:
See, threads like this are a by-product of Blizzard making Terran stupidly overpowered in the first 6 months of this game.
Now, all of the "a a t a a a" bio players are crying because their abusive strategy that promoted them into diamond league no longer works.
Think about it like this: you get two aspiring baseball players. you give one a corked bat and another a standard bat. the kid with the corked bat seems to be a much better player than the kid with the regular bat.
but then, one day, you realize that its unfair that one has a corked bat while the other doesn't. so you take away the corked bat and force him to use an official bat, and suddenly he isn't performing so well. this, in turn, leads to frustration on his part, and he declares baseball an unbalanced game which causes him to quit it forever. Not a single T GSL winner in the first 6 months of the game ... stupidly overpowered hmm? Bisu: "If you're asking for my opinion, then no. Reviews seem to be calling it Terran-World. It'd be nice if they worked on the balance a little bit. If Terran continues to win like this, who is going to play that game? If you're going to make Protoss such a weak race, might as well get rid of it. It's quite saddening. But, if I had to make the switch to Starcraft 2, I probably would play Protoss. (laughs)" This opinion on balance when the game was young > You. So the guy presents at least somewhat of an arguement and your comeback is a quote from Bisu, who doesn't play the game AND plays protoss.
I love Bisu and everything but he is not in the position to comment on this and for people taking his opinion on SC2 serious.
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On March 11 2012 19:39 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 19:33 Sated wrote:On March 11 2012 19:04 Laurens wrote:On March 11 2012 19:03 TENTHST wrote:
See, threads like this are a by-product of Blizzard making Terran stupidly overpowered in the first 6 months of this game.
Now, all of the "a a t a a a" bio players are crying because their abusive strategy that promoted them into diamond league no longer works.
Think about it like this: you get two aspiring baseball players. you give one a corked bat and another a standard bat. the kid with the corked bat seems to be a much better player than the kid with the regular bat.
but then, one day, you realize that its unfair that one has a corked bat while the other doesn't. so you take away the corked bat and force him to use an official bat, and suddenly he isn't performing so well. this, in turn, leads to frustration on his part, and he declares baseball an unbalanced game which causes him to quit it forever. Not a single T GSL winner in the first 6 months of the game ... stupidly overpowered hmm? Bisu: "If you're asking for my opinion, then no. Reviews seem to be calling it Terran-World. It'd be nice if they worked on the balance a little bit. If Terran continues to win like this, who is going to play that game? If you're going to make Protoss such a weak race, might as well get rid of it. It's quite saddening. But, if I had to make the switch to Starcraft 2, I probably would play Protoss. (laughs)" This opinion on balance when the game was young > You. Yeah, because the balance and player skill right now is completely same like it was at the release. Anyway I don't think any amount of patching is going to fix TvP without breaking the balance of the other match ups. It is better to wait for either a ''metagame'' switch or for the expansion to fix things up.
Who says it needs 'fixing'? Protoss has an advantage late game but terran has an advantage mid game. You want terran to have an advantage at all stages of the game? The game is much more balanced than it was back in August when Korean terrans were almost 70-30 over protoss. Now it's only 54-46 in favor of toss- definitely within the bounds of what I would consider balanced. If it was 54-46 the other way I would have no problem with that either. Terrans just got used to seeing other terrans winning every top tournament. Now that they're only winning about a third of them they think there's something wrong but in actuality balance has improved.
Also It should be so clear to people that you can't balance for lower leagues- you have to aim for the top with balance otherwise we'll end up with every pro player choosing the same race. How much fun would that be?
And look at the example of Byun- if it were true that terran is really exponentially harder than other races he would have failed hard when he switched from toss to terran and dropped out of progaming. In fact he is continuing to compete at a high level as a pro (albeit after a break due to the coca incident) and recently beat some top protosses in GSTL.
In the end if you guys think your race is what's holding you back from GM or whatever go ahead and try another race and see what it's like. You may find it's not such a cakewalk as you think.
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On March 11 2012 19:39 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 19:33 Sated wrote:On March 11 2012 19:04 Laurens wrote:On March 11 2012 19:03 TENTHST wrote:
See, threads like this are a by-product of Blizzard making Terran stupidly overpowered in the first 6 months of this game.
Now, all of the "a a t a a a" bio players are crying because their abusive strategy that promoted them into diamond league no longer works.
Think about it like this: you get two aspiring baseball players. you give one a corked bat and another a standard bat. the kid with the corked bat seems to be a much better player than the kid with the regular bat.
but then, one day, you realize that its unfair that one has a corked bat while the other doesn't. so you take away the corked bat and force him to use an official bat, and suddenly he isn't performing so well. this, in turn, leads to frustration on his part, and he declares baseball an unbalanced game which causes him to quit it forever. Not a single T GSL winner in the first 6 months of the game ... stupidly overpowered hmm? Bisu: "If you're asking for my opinion, then no. Reviews seem to be calling it Terran-World. It'd be nice if they worked on the balance a little bit. If Terran continues to win like this, who is going to play that game? If you're going to make Protoss such a weak race, might as well get rid of it. It's quite saddening. But, if I had to make the switch to Starcraft 2, I probably would play Protoss. (laughs)" This opinion on balance when the game was young > You. Yeah, because the balance and player skill right now is completely same like it was at the release. Anyway I don't think any amount of patching is going to fix TvP without breaking the balance of the other match ups. It is better to wait for either a ''metagame'' switch or for the expansion to fix things up.
Mmmm, I does not totally agree on the "not possible to fix TvP without breaking the balance of other matchup". Zealot Charge has the most impact on PvT. Something like :
No concussive shell + No charge = normal speed
Concussive shell + No charge = slow speed
No concussive shell + Charge = slighty faster speed + charge
Concussive shell + Charge = slighty faster speed <- Only thing different from how it is as of today.
I will probably get slaughtered for coming up with this idea, but this would probably fix the matchup and, what's more, it only affect the late game !
And the speed of zealot with "Concussive shell + Charge = slighty faster speed" can be fully adjusted to stay balanced and not be too harsh of a nerf to P in this matchup.
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they are all playing me on Antiga Shipyard and have no time to play against other players.
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On March 11 2012 20:07 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 19:39 Mehukannu wrote:On March 11 2012 19:33 Sated wrote:On March 11 2012 19:04 Laurens wrote:On March 11 2012 19:03 TENTHST wrote:
See, threads like this are a by-product of Blizzard making Terran stupidly overpowered in the first 6 months of this game.
Now, all of the "a a t a a a" bio players are crying because their abusive strategy that promoted them into diamond league no longer works.
Think about it like this: you get two aspiring baseball players. you give one a corked bat and another a standard bat. the kid with the corked bat seems to be a much better player than the kid with the regular bat.
but then, one day, you realize that its unfair that one has a corked bat while the other doesn't. so you take away the corked bat and force him to use an official bat, and suddenly he isn't performing so well. this, in turn, leads to frustration on his part, and he declares baseball an unbalanced game which causes him to quit it forever. Not a single T GSL winner in the first 6 months of the game ... stupidly overpowered hmm? Bisu: "If you're asking for my opinion, then no. Reviews seem to be calling it Terran-World. It'd be nice if they worked on the balance a little bit. If Terran continues to win like this, who is going to play that game? If you're going to make Protoss such a weak race, might as well get rid of it. It's quite saddening. But, if I had to make the switch to Starcraft 2, I probably would play Protoss. (laughs)" This opinion on balance when the game was young > You. Yeah, because the balance and player skill right now is completely same like it was at the release. Anyway I don't think any amount of patching is going to fix TvP without breaking the balance of the other match ups. It is better to wait for either a ''metagame'' switch or for the expansion to fix things up. Who says it needs 'fixing'? Protoss has an advantage late game but terran has an advantage mid game. You want terran to have an advantage at all stages of the game? The game is much more balanced than it was back in August when Korean terrans were almost 70-30 over protoss. Now it's only 54-46 in favor of toss- definitely within the bounds of what I would consider balanced. If it was 54-46 the other way I would have no problem with that either. Terrans just got used to seeing other terrans winning every top tournament. Now that they're only winning about a third of them they think there's something wrong but in actuality balance has improved. Also It should be so clear to people that you can't balance for lower leagues- you have to aim for the top with balance otherwise we'll end up with every pro player choosing the same race. How much fun would that be? And look at the example of Byun- if it were true that terran is really exponentially harder than other races he would have failed hard when he switched from toss to terran and dropped out of progaming. In fact he is continuing to compete at a high level as a pro (albeit after a break due to the coca incident) and recently beat some top protosses in GSTL. In the end if you guys think your race is what's holding you back from GM or whatever go ahead and try another race and see what it's like. You may find it's not such a cakewalk as you think.
I think most people agree the matchup isn't imbalanced, however I find it alarming that its so much easier to play one side of it than the other (yes Im random), it shouldn't be like that. Protoss two-base timings are so easy to excecute, and if you don't identify the threat you die. Protoss lategame is near unstoppable, unless you are way ahead. The colossus is a walking siege tank, only way better and it doesn't get stomped by zealots. In no way do I feel protoss is better than terran, but it is surely easier, as seen especially in the NA and EU scene (where almost no terrans are in the top).
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On March 11 2012 20:51 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 20:07 tomatriedes wrote:On March 11 2012 19:39 Mehukannu wrote:On March 11 2012 19:33 Sated wrote:On March 11 2012 19:04 Laurens wrote:On March 11 2012 19:03 TENTHST wrote:
See, threads like this are a by-product of Blizzard making Terran stupidly overpowered in the first 6 months of this game.
Now, all of the "a a t a a a" bio players are crying because their abusive strategy that promoted them into diamond league no longer works.
Think about it like this: you get two aspiring baseball players. you give one a corked bat and another a standard bat. the kid with the corked bat seems to be a much better player than the kid with the regular bat.
but then, one day, you realize that its unfair that one has a corked bat while the other doesn't. so you take away the corked bat and force him to use an official bat, and suddenly he isn't performing so well. this, in turn, leads to frustration on his part, and he declares baseball an unbalanced game which causes him to quit it forever. Not a single T GSL winner in the first 6 months of the game ... stupidly overpowered hmm? Bisu: "If you're asking for my opinion, then no. Reviews seem to be calling it Terran-World. It'd be nice if they worked on the balance a little bit. If Terran continues to win like this, who is going to play that game? If you're going to make Protoss such a weak race, might as well get rid of it. It's quite saddening. But, if I had to make the switch to Starcraft 2, I probably would play Protoss. (laughs)" This opinion on balance when the game was young > You. Yeah, because the balance and player skill right now is completely same like it was at the release. Anyway I don't think any amount of patching is going to fix TvP without breaking the balance of the other match ups. It is better to wait for either a ''metagame'' switch or for the expansion to fix things up. Who says it needs 'fixing'? Protoss has an advantage late game but terran has an advantage mid game. You want terran to have an advantage at all stages of the game? The game is much more balanced than it was back in August when Korean terrans were almost 70-30 over protoss. Now it's only 54-46 in favor of toss- definitely within the bounds of what I would consider balanced. If it was 54-46 the other way I would have no problem with that either. Terrans just got used to seeing other terrans winning every top tournament. Now that they're only winning about a third of them they think there's something wrong but in actuality balance has improved. Also It should be so clear to people that you can't balance for lower leagues- you have to aim for the top with balance otherwise we'll end up with every pro player choosing the same race. How much fun would that be? And look at the example of Byun- if it were true that terran is really exponentially harder than other races he would have failed hard when he switched from toss to terran and dropped out of progaming. In fact he is continuing to compete at a high level as a pro (albeit after a break due to the coca incident) and recently beat some top protosses in GSTL. In the end if you guys think your race is what's holding you back from GM or whatever go ahead and try another race and see what it's like. You may find it's not such a cakewalk as you think. I think most people agree the matchup isn't imbalanced, however I find it alarming that its so much easier to play one side of it than the other (yes Im random), it shouldn't be like that. Protoss two-base timings are so easy to excecute, and if you don't identify the threat you die. Protoss lategame is near unstoppable, unless you are way ahead. The colossus is a walking siege tank, only way better and it doesn't get stomped by zealots. In no way do I feel protoss is better than terran, but it is surely easier, as seen especially in the NA and EU scene (where almost no terrans are in the top).
"Everything protoss has is better, easier, and stronger... But i'm not balance whining". That's what i got from your post.
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On March 11 2012 11:19 Maxd11 wrote:
I was noticing this with less <15% of my games being vs terran but recently this has changed and now my matchups are predominantly tvt and tvz. I wish blizz would implement something that would make you more likely to play 33% of your matches vs each race but considering that would make finding a match even longer it really doesn't seem worth it.
That is logically not possible. If you have differences in how much % play witch race, you will have an imbalance in what races you play. If you fix that, other players won't find opponents, cause they have to wait till for example a T is free.
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On March 11 2012 20:56 stillborn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 11:19 Maxd11 wrote:
I was noticing this with less <15% of my games being vs terran but recently this has changed and now my matchups are predominantly tvt and tvz. I wish blizz would implement something that would make you more likely to play 33% of your matches vs each race but considering that would make finding a match even longer it really doesn't seem worth it. That is logically not possible. If you have differences in how much % play witch race, you will have an imbalance in what races you play. If you fix that, other players won't find opponents, cause they have to wait till for example a T is free.
This and I love the surprise of what race I face next it´s just another motivation to ladder. When I would know that I would be facing a Protoss in the next match I don´t know if I would start my match immediately, since I don´t like TvP that much.
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My stats for this season (I'm high diamond T):
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/trw28.jpg)
Also, I think it's worth to say, that out of those 7 wins vsP, 4 are 1/1/1 all-ins with pulling all the scvs, and 3 wins are pure mech, containing opponent on 2 bases and waiting for him to all-in (quite a TvT style).
When I was trying to play "standard" I was getting a-moved by deathballs with like 80-90 APM, while I had ~180 APM, and was dropping as much as I could, denying bases etc. during the whole game. When it was coming to the final engagements, the score was pretty even, but then P was just warping in like 20 Zealots in the middle of the battle and I was screwed.
And for those who say, that I should micro better - 75% win ratio in TvZ didn't came from nowhere, it requires as much if not more micro than other matchups. Therefore, I consider TvP as a retarded and imbalanced matchup and a reason for lack of Terran players on the higher levels. Thanks for attention and to all the Terrans out there - pray for HotS to come out ASAP.
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I just find it funny that through this entire thread someone says something is imbalanced then contradicts themselves by saying "i dont think its imbalanced."
Terran till the day I die, and get turned into kerrigan! :D
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I find the same thing on EU. Very few terrans as opposed to the two other races.
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TvT used to be my strongest matchup but due to rarely seeing terrans on ladder anymore I've barely gotten any practice in it and feel I don't understand the matchup anymore as much as TvZ or TvP causing me to lose or fall behind many times in the early game, which is why it's my worst matchup now. TvP's probably my strongest now just for being able to end it earlier a lot as there are a few vulnerable timings against protoss before they get the colossus HT ball up. Once they do I feel it's very difficult to win though.
TvZ I have little clue how to win past 20 minutes. Infestor broodlord corruptor is hard to beat unless you have a LOT of vikings, and then they can transition into ultralinginfestor and you have a ton of useless vikings. You have to kill zerg before their eco gets too big since you can't turtle anymore due to ghosts not being efficient anymore. That, or you have to go mech which I find is a more boring style.
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i am plat on eu, and i can play for hours without facing any terrans :/
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On March 11 2012 20:55 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 20:51 kyllinghest wrote:On March 11 2012 20:07 tomatriedes wrote:On March 11 2012 19:39 Mehukannu wrote:On March 11 2012 19:33 Sated wrote:On March 11 2012 19:04 Laurens wrote:On March 11 2012 19:03 TENTHST wrote:
See, threads like this are a by-product of Blizzard making Terran stupidly overpowered in the first 6 months of this game.
Now, all of the "a a t a a a" bio players are crying because their abusive strategy that promoted them into diamond league no longer works.
Think about it like this: you get two aspiring baseball players. you give one a corked bat and another a standard bat. the kid with the corked bat seems to be a much better player than the kid with the regular bat.
but then, one day, you realize that its unfair that one has a corked bat while the other doesn't. so you take away the corked bat and force him to use an official bat, and suddenly he isn't performing so well. this, in turn, leads to frustration on his part, and he declares baseball an unbalanced game which causes him to quit it forever. Not a single T GSL winner in the first 6 months of the game ... stupidly overpowered hmm? Bisu: "If you're asking for my opinion, then no. Reviews seem to be calling it Terran-World. It'd be nice if they worked on the balance a little bit. If Terran continues to win like this, who is going to play that game? If you're going to make Protoss such a weak race, might as well get rid of it. It's quite saddening. But, if I had to make the switch to Starcraft 2, I probably would play Protoss. (laughs)" This opinion on balance when the game was young > You. Yeah, because the balance and player skill right now is completely same like it was at the release. Anyway I don't think any amount of patching is going to fix TvP without breaking the balance of the other match ups. It is better to wait for either a ''metagame'' switch or for the expansion to fix things up. Who says it needs 'fixing'? Protoss has an advantage late game but terran has an advantage mid game. You want terran to have an advantage at all stages of the game? The game is much more balanced than it was back in August when Korean terrans were almost 70-30 over protoss. Now it's only 54-46 in favor of toss- definitely within the bounds of what I would consider balanced. If it was 54-46 the other way I would have no problem with that either. Terrans just got used to seeing other terrans winning every top tournament. Now that they're only winning about a third of them they think there's something wrong but in actuality balance has improved. Also It should be so clear to people that you can't balance for lower leagues- you have to aim for the top with balance otherwise we'll end up with every pro player choosing the same race. How much fun would that be? And look at the example of Byun- if it were true that terran is really exponentially harder than other races he would have failed hard when he switched from toss to terran and dropped out of progaming. In fact he is continuing to compete at a high level as a pro (albeit after a break due to the coca incident) and recently beat some top protosses in GSTL. In the end if you guys think your race is what's holding you back from GM or whatever go ahead and try another race and see what it's like. You may find it's not such a cakewalk as you think. I think most people agree the matchup isn't imbalanced, however I find it alarming that its so much easier to play one side of it than the other (yes Im random), it shouldn't be like that. Protoss two-base timings are so easy to excecute, and if you don't identify the threat you die. Protoss lategame is near unstoppable, unless you are way ahead. The colossus is a walking siege tank, only way better and it doesn't get stomped by zealots. In no way do I feel protoss is better than terran, but it is surely easier, as seen especially in the NA and EU scene (where almost no terrans are in the top). "Everything protoss has is better, easier, and stronger... But i'm not balance whining". That's what i got from your post.
Why do you put words in his mouth which aren't true? his only grief was about the colossus, yet you knowingly had put in your text "everything".
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EPT
