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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 10 2012 00:10 threshy wrote:
Orb's defenders are the ones playing semantic games. They urge the rational among us to ignore the universal understanding of words, and to redefine "rage" to be an emotion that absolves the one who feels it from all responsibility.
No because in REALITY the meaning of "nigger" , "fag" etc has a different meaning to the person USING the word. the REALITY is based on the INDIVIDUAL's perception, not some "universal" perception as you claim. (the universal perception being of course YOUR perception in this case, sigh)
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On March 10 2012 00:16 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:10 threshy wrote:
There is no separation between what Orb said and his "intent." It is transparently sophistic to argue that, although Orb used the word most universally associated with racism, he nonetheless "intended" something more benign. Why should I (or anybody else) believe that?
Orb's defenders are the ones playing semantic games. They urge the rational among us to ignore the universal understanding of words, and to redefine "rage" to be an emotion that absolves the one who feels it from all responsibility. Only on the internet could that make sense to anybody.
Let me give a tip to all the adolescents who are confused and upset about this "overreaction:" say what you mean, because people hold you to what you say. It is easy to communicate anger or frustration without using racial slurs. I do it all the time. In other words, if you don't want to be considered racist, don't say racist things. It's actually pretty easy, if you're not seething with latent racial resentment. People who aren't racist don't struggle to control racist outbursts. If you think it's anything other than trivial to keep from saying something racist, you're probably just a racist. You forgot that not everyone have the same hive mindset. A thing can means different thing to different people. You can see that in a lot of "none-adolescents" events. USA invade Irak, for freedom Irak is being invaded by USA for control and their natural resources. France colonize Africa for civilization. Africa is being invaded and controlled by France, for establishing an empire. Orb says nigger to ventilate and angry his opponent as much as he's angry. A member of the community feels he's a dickhead and burn him.
I'm not totally sure what you're saying, but I think it's a variation on the "he said X but he secretly meant Y" idea. I think I adequately addressed that already. But I will add that your point as you've expressed it is all the more puzzling in light of the facts that (1) Orb is from the USA, where the cultural context of the word he used is universally understood, so whatever cultural defense you think might sometimes apply does not apply here, and (2) Orb admitted in his apology that he used the word precisely because he was aware of its unique gravity, with the aim to cause maximum injury.
If you meant something else, please elaborate.
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People make mistakes, it's only human nature. No one person is excusable, but to man up accept responsibility for your actions and try to amend the situation is the correct action, imho.
In my opinion EG is coming off too pompous, if they are going hold Orb to such high standards, why do they not hold their players to the same standards? I myself have been offended by things I have seen on EG players streams, but nothing is done to them.
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im not going to wear my EG hoodie today in protest of what has happened.
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On March 10 2012 00:20 Cylluus wrote:
By the way EG, good luck finding someone who's even half as good a caster as Orb is.
ya and good luck to the people wanting to apply, having to scourge their posting history, replays, friendslist, music playlist beforehand lol
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On March 10 2012 00:10 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:01 opisska wrote:
Well, this is the page 102 - that is kinda the problem with TL today that there is SO many people that it is humanly impossible to read through all the opinions, even when the topic is interesting. So nor did I do that, neither do I think that many people will have the time and willingess to read through my opinion. Nevertheless I feel the need to state it.
I think that Alex Garfield's post is the essence of what I think is on of the biggest curses of the contemporary society and in a long time I haven't read anything so well written, with what I could so wholeheartedly disagree. Yet it is very difficult fro me to condense WHY is is to wrong into one world or sentence, paricularly in English language.
But first, let me take pon this from practical point of view: I consider it outageously absurd that someone is being evaluated for a certain position based on things that he has done in the past. I am well aware of the fact that this is done routinely, but it does not make it any better. It is the same fallacy as when the childhood/youngster misbehaviour of a politician is brought up during the campaing. Or even the fact that he has had an affair. I do not care what that guy has done OUTSIDE of politics - it has no impact on my life, I want to now about how he is going to vote on the next bill, not who is he gonna f*** in his freetime. As much as Alex wanted to present it as some kind of a "higher issue" EG is just an employer here. And orb is an emlpoyee, NOT a slave. That means that EG has the full right to tell him what he is supposed to do in his working hours, but it is NONE of their business what he is (or was) doing in his free time (or even when he was not an EG employee at all). Isn't there even a law for this? (Maybe not in the U.S., but if you fired a guy because he has said something in past here, you would problaby get sued pretty hard, and lost)
But these are just practicalities. I think that the worst proble here is, that so much weight is being given to everything people do. The Alex Garfield's post is a prime example of this "overthinking" that plagues the whole western society. Everything, every word, every movement, everything people do is being evaluated and assigned a meaning. And to the worst of it, there is someone ready to be offended by it! Everytime I see the world "to offend" or any of it's derivatives, my blood pressure increases (and that is bery bad for me, as the baseline is already 130/70). It is, in my opinion the worst word our society know at the moment, much worst, than, for example, "nigger". If you say "nigger", you may be hurting about a third of the world's population - or just not caring at all (and you may hope that most of the black people are cool enough not to care as well). If you say "X offends me", you are much more egilitarian: you are hurting the humanity as a whole. And there is no way out, once you say it, no redemption. The amount of things that can't be done, said, drawn, written, broadcasted... because there is someon being "offended", plummets exponentially.
I am out of words now. As I have said in the beginning, this is extremely difficult to formulate in English and I am sorry if it does not make any sense to anyone. Very clear, much more clever than Alex's post, even if he obviously write better and have added a stupid non-relevant authority argument regarding his studies. I feel the same way and I'm very tired to see people getting brainwashed by the false use of great causes.
No, not more clever than Alex's post which was well informed and included no appeal to authority fallacy, you need to take some formal logic classes to better understand argumentation and so does the poster you quoted. Alex eloquently explained the modern paradigm of racism and gave his academic background that informed and developed his opinion, there was no fallacy there.
The idea that who you are employed by should not affect your free time is a fantasy. Go tell every employer that drug tests, every employer that checks social media of potential employees, that your free time activities are irrelevant, they will laugh at you.
Sorry, but the world just does not work the way you want it to, who employs you and the ethos of that company will impact your behavior outside of work.
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Orb: Shouldn't have used offensive slurs in rage, I get that.
EG: Waaaay overreacted ... suspension without pay for 1-2 months should've been enough. And demanded a full apology from Orb.
Community: Seriously? Heard anything about throwing stones? Never raged in SC2, any other game, real life with some choice words? Pressuring sponsors was pretty low ... waiting for EG to serve out punishment in their own way should have been a far more reasonable response (and would have given you a far more valuable insight of the organization).
No one is up for sainthood here. We're humans, we do shit. Don't become a mob that celebrates building people up then tearing them down.
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On March 10 2012 00:16 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:13 ajabberwok wrote:
I agree with the OP. The starcraft community should remain mature and inclusive.
I'll admit though that a part of me thinks it's pretty rough for a company to fire or punish someone for things they did before working there. (I wouldn't want my current employer to fire me for dumb things I may have done or said when I was in college.)
Are there examples of other companies firing employees for things they did prior to working there? I'm sure orb lying EG in the face and making up excuses factored in as well.
Except he didn't lie...
Edit: I wanted to add something to this post due to something many of the responses have been touching on. Many people think that the fact that I have used this awful word in the past means that the first screenshot submitted was in fact myself, and that I lied to the community. This is simply not true. The first screenshot submitted, that I claimed was not me, was in fact not me. My original story still stands, the difference is that as soon as that screenshot came out on reddit, everyone started scrubbing through replays against me and all of my vods, searching for something to prove I am in fact racist. Thus the screenshots from statements I made 1+ year ago surfaced on reddit. Notice as soon as the first of these screenshots was released, I immediately owned up and apologized (as seen here). All of the evidence of me using the N word (which again, was 100% wrong by me) was from old screenshots/vods way before I was even talking to the EG guys, let alone representing them. Sorry for the confusion, I hope this clears up the issue with my perceived "dishonesty." Note in Alex Garfield's statement the supposed "lying" wasn't even an issue, rather just my actions and poor judgement.
As for the lateness in my final apology here and the accusations that I am only doing it now that EG has fired me, I was actually told specifically by EG management not to make any statements (on twitter, teamliquid, or reddit) until they had decided what to do about it and made their own statement. Sorry for this causing any doubt for people as to whether or not my apology is sincere!
Direct quote from his apology post.
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On March 10 2012 00:17 Ornithorynquez wrote:
I get understand and respect Orb's statement and EG's decision.
But the most disgusting part is how unfogivable and overreacting this community is.
This is a mischaracterization of the community. An example of 'overraction' would be to physically harm Orb. The community used words to voice their reaction. Most of the discussion/drama have been people arguing about racial slurs, etc.
But your paradigm filters differently than mine.
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On March 10 2012 00:21 FFGenerations wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:10 threshy wrote:
Orb's defenders are the ones playing semantic games. They urge the rational among us to ignore the universal understanding of words, and to redefine "rage" to be an emotion that absolves the one who feels it from all responsibility.
No because in REALITY the meaning of "nigger" , "fag" etc has a different meaning to the person USING the word. the REALITY is based on the INDIVIDUAL's perception, not some "universal" perception as you claim. (the universal perception being of course YOUR perception in this case, sigh)
And exactly how are homosexuals and black people supposed to feel when they hear those words? Want some "REALITY?" Language is about communication. By definition it involves more than the individual. When you use language you MUST do so with the recipients in mind, otherwise why try to communicate at all?
You do not get to apply complete relativism to language in the name if individualism because language is not individualistic.
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On March 10 2012 00:01 opisska wrote:
Well, this is the page 102 - that is kinda the problem with TL today that there is SO many people that it is humanly impossible to read through all the opinions, even when the topic is interesting. So nor did I do that, neither do I think that many people will have the time and willingess to read through my opinion. Nevertheless I feel the need to state it.
I think that Alex Garfield's post is the essence of what I think is on of the biggest curses of the contemporary society and in a long time I haven't read anything so well written, with what I could so wholeheartedly disagree. Yet it is very difficult fro me to condense WHY is is to wrong into one world or sentence, paricularly in English language.
But first, let me take pon this from practical point of view: I consider it outageously absurd that someone is being evaluated for a certain position based on things that he has done in the past. I am well aware of the fact that this is done routinely, but it does not make it any better. It is the same fallacy as when the childhood/youngster misbehaviour of a politician is brought up during the campaing. Or even the fact that he has had an affair. I do not care what that guy has done OUTSIDE of politics - it has no impact on my life, I want to now about how he is going to vote on the next bill, not who is he gonna f*** in his freetime. As much as Alex wanted to present it as some kind of a "higher issue" EG is just an employer here. And orb is an emlpoyee, NOT a slave. That means that EG has the full right to tell him what he is supposed to do in his working hours, but it is NONE of their business what he is (or was) doing in his free time (or even when he was not an EG employee at all). Isn't there even a law for this? (Maybe not in the U.S., but if you fired a guy because he has said something in past here, you would problaby get sued pretty hard, and lost)
But these are just practicalities. I think that the worst proble here is, that so much weight is being given to everything people do. The Alex Garfield's post is a prime example of this "overthinking" that plagues the whole western society. Everything, every word, every movement, everything people do is being evaluated and assigned a meaning. And to the worst of it, there is someone ready to be offended by it! Everytime I see the world "to offend" or any of it's derivatives, my blood pressure increases (and that is bery bad for me, as the baseline is already 130/70). It is, in my opinion the worst word our society know at the moment, much worst, than, for example, "nigger". If you say "nigger", you may be hurting about a third of the world's population - or just not caring at all (and you may hope that most of the black people are cool enough not to care as well). If you say "X offends me", you are much more egilitarian: you are hurting the humanity as a whole. And there is no way out, once you say it, no redemption. The amount of things that can't be done, said, drawn, written, broadcasted... because there is someon being "offended", plummets exponentially.
I am out of words now. As I have said in the beginning, this is extremely difficult to formulate in English and I am sorry if it does not make any sense to anyone.
Absolutely brilliant post.
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Tough choice but a fair decision. That kind of language can not go unpunished
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On March 10 2012 00:21 FFGenerations wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:10 threshy wrote:
Orb's defenders are the ones playing semantic games. They urge the rational among us to ignore the universal understanding of words, and to redefine "rage" to be an emotion that absolves the one who feels it from all responsibility.
No because in REALITY the meaning of "nigger" , "fag" etc has a different meaning to the person USING the word. the REALITY is based on the INDIVIDUAL's perception, not some "universal" perception as you claim. (the universal perception being of course YOUR perception in this case, sigh)
This is nonsense for two reasons.
(1) Orb admitted that he chose the word because it is uniquely offensive.
(2) My point is about what we should infer. You'd have me believe that a person who says the one word that is most closely associated with racial animus intends something entirely unracial by it. That's simply implausible, because there are lots of ways to communicate anger, frustration and impotence without resorting to racial slurs. Please, be honest with yourself: racist and homophobic language is used by anonymous jerks on the internet precisely because of its offensive connotations, not because they are particularly euphonic words that happen to have unfortunate associations.
Sure, you can say "orange" but mean "blue." But you're the one who bears the burden of explaining that to the (poor people) who converse with you.
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EG is free to carry out whatever policy they like to. EG doesnt equal esports and the entire community. Alex here has a set of principles that he wish to act upon in such a public way, which I admire him for.
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On March 10 2012 00:20 sereniity wrote:I made a blog about all this bullshit but it got closed as it appearently doesn't deserve its own blog. I'll re-post it here.+ Show Spoiler +Note that this is my first blog ever. When I went to sleep yesterday the whole Orb situation was being discussed on the forums, there had however not been an official statement from either EG or Orb. I woke up this morning and saw the thread from EG, I read it through and got pretty pissed. I don't really know where to begin, so excuse me if this post will be kind of a mess. So the whole shit began when someone on Reddit makes a post about him writing the word "nigger" to flame his opponent after losing a game, Orb responds that it wasn't him, that it was his friend who he shared his account with. People then begin to dig in his VODs on Twitch and find shit that is 1 year old (he wasn't even casting at the times these VODs were filmed) and use it against him. Now suddenly everyone claims Orb to be a liar, which he isn't. Orb claimed that the first picture wasn't him, which he to this date stays true to. He doesn't deny the fact that the other occurences were him, he even made an apology post about it here http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/qmvdb/orb_really_loves_the_n_word_on_ladder/c3yvcegSo now Orb has people who hated his word usage aswell as his "lying" against him. People file complaints to EGs sponsors about this whole deal without even knowing the whole story. After that EG makes a statement, about how the word n****er is the most disgusting word ever etc and says that even though Orb is a great caster he wont EVER be affiliated with EG again, which I find really silly. I'll use another persons post from the EG statement thread here as he formulates himself better than I do As I said before, EG, of course, is free to hire and fire people as they wish, but after some more contemplation, I can't hide that I'm personally disappointed with EG (yet again). In a case that revolves around what usually would be called "progressive thinking" (though I dislike the term, as I find it absurd and relative), issuing any kind of irreversible punishment is disturbing. The whole premise of overcoming any kind of bigotry and segregation is the belief in the human ability to adapt, change, evolve and not be set in stone by the past. In view of this, I find it disheartening to see doors being closed forever, for anyone, even for a murderer, let alone for a verbal abuser. That's not a sign of purity of principles, but rather a sign of fear and weakness. It took me some time to realize what was it that I found so subtly disturbing in EG's official position, and then I realized it was this. I cannot agree more with that. Alex Garfield ends his post that with this
...Now, I just wish you guys would also get this upset when people use the word f----t, so that we could start fighting homophobia, too, and show people that it, like racism, also doesn't belong in our community .
Well, guess what Alex Garfield. You have the choice here, why don't you get rid of your little sponsor b*tch IdrA who happens to use the words "retard" and "faggot" every time he streams? Why don't you fire HIM then since you care so god damn much? Well here's his answer https://twitter.com/#!/ottersareneat/status/177964162113224705So basically, every time he hears IdrA use those words, he tells IdrA he shouldn't... Well, why don't you do more? You fired Orb pretty much on the spot for using the word "nigger" ONE YEAR BACK BEFORE HE WAS EVEN A CASTER. I cannot even fucking fathom how stupid that is. Please don't bring up the damn argument "welcome to the real world, IdrA is a bigger person and doesn't get punished as severely". I get fucking pissed at that shit, I thought we were working towards a better world here? Because guess what, welcome to the real fucking world where people get called niggers, faggots, retards and bitches every day in school, does that make it okay to use those words aswell or what? Why doesn't Alex Garfield make sure people like IdrA and Destiny don't get affiliated with his holy EG brand when this is obviously such a big deal to him? We see Destiny make appearances on SOTG with members from EG, maybe we should send in mails to their sponsors about how EG affiliates with people who use words like "retard" and "faggot" daily? The hypocrisy of Alex Garfield has made me lose all respect for him and EG when they were previously my favourite team. I had alot more to add to this subject, I might edit my blog when I get to think of it again (this blog turned out alot better in my head lol) but I'll just leave it like this for now. If anyone has anything to say, please do.
This sentence alone is enough for me.
Why the fuck can't I delete my account on TL?
User was banned for this post.
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On March 10 2012 00:23 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:21 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:10 threshy wrote:
Orb's defenders are the ones playing semantic games. They urge the rational among us to ignore the universal understanding of words, and to redefine "rage" to be an emotion that absolves the one who feels it from all responsibility.
No because in REALITY the meaning of "nigger" , "fag" etc has a different meaning to the person USING the word. the REALITY is based on the INDIVIDUAL's perception, not some "universal" perception as you claim. (the universal perception being of course YOUR perception in this case, sigh) And exactly how are homosexuals and black people supposed to feel when they hear those words? Want some "REALITY?" Language is about communication. By definition it involves more than the individual. When you use language you MUST do so with the recipients in mind, otherwise why try to communicate at all? You do not get to apply complete relativism to language in the name if individualism because language is not individualistic.
thats why people must be respectful of other's FEELINGS , WHEN IT MATTERS ie when someones feelings could be hurt
but thats also why you should understand and accept that when you overhear someone using nigger fag then its NOT because theyre racist but because it doesnt hurt their feelings to use those words or because they (in rage/troll cases) its to attack someone but not because theyre racist
you are trolling anyway , "language is not individualistic" what the hell does this mean? language is how we communicate concepts, and concepts are as individual and personal as it gets
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On March 10 2012 00:22 FFGenerations wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:20 Cylluus wrote:
By the way EG, good luck finding someone who's even half as good a caster as Orb is. ya and good luck to the people wanting to apply, having to scourge their posting history, replays, friendslist, music playlist beforehand lol
Yeah they just have to make sure not to stream themselfs being racist and mean towards random people over something trivial(ladder game). God damn EG so unreasonable.
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Glad to hear that we still punish that kind of behaviour, nice OP btw.
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I like how EGAlex prefaces his post by first letting us know how much knowledge he has in the field of racism, and afterwards how much he detests the N word.
I don't buy any of it. It's pretty obvious that orb was fired because of pressure from sponsors. You can see that part dripping from the bottom of his post.
I would like it a lot more if Alex would have used his rhetoric skills trying to explain to sponsors that this is an internet drama started by trolls - rather than trying to explain to TL why his values are not in tune with Orb's.
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Would he have been banned for other offensive words? Are EG members aware of what they can and cannot say?
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EPT
