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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 23:27 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 23:18 plogamer wrote:On March 09 2012 23:16 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 23:14 plogamer wrote:On March 09 2012 23:08 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 23:05 XRaDiiX wrote:On March 09 2012 23:04 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 22:59 ePLocust wrote:On March 09 2012 22:55 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 22:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:
[quote]
If it bothers you so much that Idra only recently cleaned up his language and you aren't satisfied with the situation, go complain to EG's sponsors about it.
Just drop the ridiculous "he's still BM" argument because it makes you look silly and childish. By your standard the majority of players in every sport are immature, BM, and non-respectful, and much more so than Idra, trash-talk on an NBA court or an NFL field is a lot harsher than "You should be ashamed of yourself."
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"Nigger" and "faggot" aren't generic curses / insults just because you use them that way. That's what the "cultural standards" part of the OP was about. holy fuck. let me spell it out for you. orb has cleaned up his language as of late and he is VERY professional with his commentary. he hasnt been nearly as BM as he was in the past where these screenshots come from. EG still fires him despite orb going/trying to go clean. keep being biased bro. I know it seems silly but in the real world things that you do and say in the past can and will come back and haunt you this is just an example of this. What I'd like to see is Orb keep casting on his own and really focusing on proving that he's cleaned up and I can forgive him. I agree with the decision made by Alex Garfield and EG here when someone is a recent hire you aren't invested heavily enough in them to keep them in the kind of shit storm that was whipped up. funny, because it hasnt haunted destiny yet, only made him money. even after the mia rose incident he is still on quantic. same for idra. but w/e. What happened? with mia Rose. basically sexually harrassed her LIVE on stream back in january. he constantly grabbed her boobs despite her obviously being uncomfortable with it and saying to stop it many times. but everyone batted an eye tot hat. go figure. this community makes me laugh honestly. I didn't know about it. And It is wrong and unacceptable of Destiny. But stop using it as an excuse. If you really believe that Destiny behaved inappropriately, then condemn that behaviour, dont hypocritically raise it to defend another person's behaviour. hyp·o·crite
noun
1.
a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. Don't pretend like you care about Destiny's behaviour. I do, and I don't watch Destiny's stream. I also publicly condemn his behaviour on this thread. See, no different than what I did with Orb. what? have you read any of my posts? I have. /edit You're raising Destiny's behaviour to excuse Orb's behaviour. Both are unacceptable. If you feel Destiny isn't being punished for his behaviour, contact his team/sponsors, make a thread about it, post it in his feedback thread, etc. its been done already, nothing happened because destiny has tons of fans. its been done with idra aswell but nothing has happened because he makes EG money. it happens with orb and he is fired because he is a nobdy. do you now get it? do you now see how stupid the community is?
actually when you put it this way, that basically just sounds like life. the rich and famous get away with things a poor or unknown wouldnt. doesnt life suck 
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On March 09 2012 23:40 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 23:38 TheSubtleArt wrote:On March 09 2012 20:29 branflakes14 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:28 TheSubtleArt wrote:On March 09 2012 20:16 dofz wrote:
Oh shit, if you ever seek to become something in the e-sport community you better make sure your background is so spotless that you could run for president without them finding much shit.
Also the post by EG that can't even type nigger, yet idra are calling people faggots, retards idiots left and right while on air, while being in a contract.
No I don't think idra should have been fired, I just find it really dumb how EG has double standards Well of course they do, is it not blatantly obvious that Idra adds more value to the organization than Orb? Welcome to the real world. You're endorsing corruption and double standards? A caster vs a high profile player with a huge fanbase....who do you think will receive more leniency. Again, welcome to the real world Well, I thought we were working towards a better world here? I guess I might aswell say "welcome to the real world where everybody throws around the word nigger randomly". It is honestly disgusting how much of a double-standard there is going on here by Alex Garfield, if anything I lost all my respect for EG who used to be my favorite team.
Money and sponsorships and all that stuff matter a lot to an organization. Ask yourself how much value Idra brings to EG, then how much Orb does. A caster is easily replaceable, a top player with a massive fanbase isn't.
I'm sorry but you have a very naiive, childish and unrealistic expectation of businesses and the world in general if this honestly offends you.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On March 09 2012 23:52 AspectOfEternity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 23:41 imallinson wrote:On March 09 2012 23:38 BrosephBrostar wrote:
This kind of reaction just shows how hypocritical people really are. How many times have we seen fans cheer for a player just because he was white? Apparently this is perfectly acceptable, but when someone says "nigger" it's time to throw a fit. I assume you are talking about the Korean vs. foreigner thing. National pride is completely different from racist insults and isn't the slightest bit offensive. Speak for yourself. Personally I find national pride to be grossly offensive, far more so than any racial slur.
Personally I'm not one for national pride. I couldn't care less whether England win the World Cup or if a foreigner beats a Korean in SC2. I don't think it's offensive though. You have to choose a side to support and picking your countries side is an easy choice. It certainly can get offensive but isn't so inherently.
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From what I just gathered, I think I understood that he was banned because he used the n word on ladder?
If it is the case, then it is a big overreaction. I don't like this word, but its not that big of a deal either to me (might be because its not my native language). But the main point is, it was only a ladder game.
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Well, this is the page 102 - that is kinda the problem with TL today that there is SO many people that it is humanly impossible to read through all the opinions, even when the topic is interesting. So nor did I do that, neither do I think that many people will have the time and willingess to read through my opinion. Nevertheless I feel the need to state it.
I think that Alex Garfield's post is the essence of what I think is on of the biggest curses of the contemporary society and in a long time I haven't read anything so well written, with what I could so wholeheartedly disagree. Yet it is very difficult fro me to condense WHY is is to wrong into one world or sentence, paricularly in English language.
But first, let me take pon this from practical point of view: I consider it outageously absurd that someone is being evaluated for a certain position based on things that he has done in the past. I am well aware of the fact that this is done routinely, but it does not make it any better. It is the same fallacy as when the childhood/youngster misbehaviour of a politician is brought up during the campaing. Or even the fact that he has had an affair. I do not care what that guy has done OUTSIDE of politics - it has no impact on my life, I want to now about how he is going to vote on the next bill, not who is he gonna f*** in his freetime. As much as Alex wanted to present it as some kind of a "higher issue" EG is just an employer here. And orb is an emlpoyee, NOT a slave. That means that EG has the full right to tell him what he is supposed to do in his working hours, but it is NONE of their business what he is (or was) doing in his free time (or even when he was not an EG employee at all). Isn't there even a law for this? (Maybe not in the U.S., but if you fired a guy because he has said something in past here, you would problaby get sued pretty hard, and lost)
But these are just practicalities. I think that the worst proble here is, that so much weight is being given to everything people do. The Alex Garfield's post is a prime example of this "overthinking" that plagues the whole western society. Everything, every word, every movement, everything people do is being evaluated and assigned a meaning. And to the worst of it, there is someone ready to be offended by it! Everytime I see the world "to offend" or any of it's derivatives, my blood pressure increases (and that is bery bad for me, as the baseline is already 130/70). It is, in my opinion the worst word our society know at the moment, much worst, than, for example, "nigger". If you say "nigger", you may be hurting about a third of the world's population - or just not caring at all (and you may hope that most of the black people are cool enough not to care as well). If you say "X offends me", you are much more egilitarian: you are hurting the humanity as a whole. And there is no way out, once you say it, no redemption. The amount of things that can't be done, said, drawn, written, broadcasted... because there is someon being "offended", plummets exponentially.
I am out of words now. As I have said in the beginning, this is extremely difficult to formulate in English and I am sorry if it does not make any sense to anyone.
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On March 09 2012 23:52 FFGenerations wrote:
i hope orb keeps casting somewhere, and if he accidently lets slip with words like nigger or faggot or pedo or jew, then i will laugh, because my upbringing has not been to take offense to words but to actions and intent.
This. Maybe it's because I have black friends who call pretty much anything nigguh, but I think it's obvious that intent is everything. IMO the foulness and hatred that a word once embodied can be destroyed by changing its meaning. Get angry at bad ideas and malicious intent, not at words.
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I've never understood the difficulty in coming up with words to accurately portray feelings. Even when I'm mad, I don't think of the n word, or the f word.
My theory is that most of the people that use these words are simply copying people they admire. We copy each other for social acceptance, monkey see monkey do, and it's part of our nature. This is fine when done with grace and balance, but a group of people can be easily be carried away by the momentum of the hivemind.
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On March 09 2012 23:52 FFGenerations wrote:
i hope orb keeps casting somewhere, and if he accidently lets slip with words like nigger or faggot or pedo or jew, then i will laugh, because my upbringing has not been to take offense to words but to actions and intent.
i was not born in the USA and didnt go through black history or black social studies in school; instead i watched south park where it is funny to call someone a stupid jew (approving genocide) and watched anime where it is funny to see a grown man get sexually teased by a little girl (pedophilia/portrayals of child abuse).
this is because i can see a difference between fake things like words and real things like intent, and dont lump everything together. why would i lump them all together when , to me, there is a clear and vital difference?
words like nigger are used because they are very effective in riling up emotions. NOT because a person hates blacks, but because if he wants to piss off a particular black person then he can do it very easily by using that word! that is NOT racial hatred; it is just effective use of the english language.
if a person has a big nose then you can offend him more easily by calling him a big-nosed twat. if he is black then you can call him a nigger. you DONT hate on either big-nosed people or blacks in general, its just that you're using that word as an effective means to attack.
so , as many people have said, stop getting upset over the WORD - if the word is meaningless to the people who USE it then it should be also meaningless to YOU! it should NOT be offensive to hear the word nigger - it SHOULD be offensive if someone is intentionally discriminating against black people.
which was orb using? (i dont have link to screenshots). i guarantee he was using the word to rile up someone in particular, and he was not discriminating against black people based on their race.
so much wasted energy through this rubbish
the above are my opinions, like i said i was not brought up in a culture that dealt closely with discrimination and i dont have any particular emotional attachment to the subject. it is my opinion that a word shouldnt be offensive , but instead we should pay attention to intentions and significance. does someone just wanna piss someone off, or do they honestly got something wrong with a group of innocent victims? wasting energy over the former is just wasting energy you could use to combat the latter ..
actually its quite sad that someone who commits their time and energy into their job gets fucked off by such a rediculous thing. i know that if i was fired from my job for such a thing, after the energy and care i put into it, i would fucking hate the world
i now love you sir, does that make me "gay" but seriously i feel the same exact way
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On March 10 2012 00:00 Roggay wrote:
From what I just gathered, I think I understood that he was banned because he used the n word on ladder?
If it is the case, then it is a big overreaction. I don't like this word, but its not that big of a deal either to me (might be because its not my native language). But the main point is, it was only a ladder game.
The point isn't where he used it, it is whether EG thinks it's acceptable to employ someone who thinks it is an acceptable insult.
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On March 09 2012 23:19 Gosi wrote:
/r/starcraft must be the most hypocritical community ever. They are so uptight and PC about everything. They are like white knights feeding out of drama and when they get their weekly witch hunt and the shitstorm is in rolling they completely change from white knights to some kind of basement dwelling retards with the mentality of teenage girls that writes comments on Justin Bieber videos on Youtube. They really do everything they can to fuck with someones life. Too bad they can't keep their shit on reddit instead of bringing it here to TL too.
Meanwhile they admire players like IdrA and Destiny, two people that are famous cuz of their language and actions. A language that are nothing different from what Orb used in those ladder games.
Stay classy /r/TMZ...
Quoted for truth. They have endless hunger for drama. It seems to me that there is "outrage" against someone every other week. This time they had a better point than most of the time, but the blatant overreactions and demands for political correctness from selected members of the community are just ridiculous. The hypocrisy is best seen when comparing reactions to Idra and Destiny to the likes of Naniwa. The other is encouraged and the other crucified.
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On March 09 2012 23:52 FFGenerations wrote:
which was orb using? (i dont have link to screenshots). i guarantee he was using the word to rile up someone in particular, and he was not discriminating against black people based on their race.
In an attempt to come up with the 'most insulting thing he could think of' orb called someone a nigger... on more than one occasion (and one time it was someone else using his account). If he was trying to insult someone by calling them a blackie there would be no ambiguity about his intent, instead we obfuscate and say 'a ha! he actually said nigger, which is just a generic insult, like asshole or dickbrain.' somehow ignoring the fact that the reason that nigger can be viewed as an insult stems directly from its use as a racial epithet for black people. Even if he wasn't intending to insult all black people with his remark, it definitely shows a lack of tact and maturity on his part that this was his go-to word.
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On March 10 2012 00:00 Roggay wrote:
From what I just gathered, I think I understood that he was banned because he used the n word on ladder?
If it is the case, then it is a big overreaction. I don't like this word, but its not that big of a deal either to me (might be because its not my native language). But the main point is, it was only a ladder game.
No, it was not only a ladder game. It was "only" Orb, so it's okay to start a which hunt and fuck him over because he isn't famous like IdrA or Destiny etc. Reddit mentality at its finest.
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On March 10 2012 00:00 Roggay wrote:
From what I just gathered, I think I understood that he was banned because he used the n word on ladder?
If it is the case, then it is a big overreaction. I don't like this word, but its not that big of a deal either to me (might be because its not my native language). But the main point is, it was only a ladder game.
He is a public figure. Everything a public figure says is a big deal. That's part of the reason it's such a freaking chore to be one. You always have to be on guard.
But it's also not acceptable for anyone to use those words. Public figure or not, you should be reported for using such terrible language.
And yes, you can be fired from ANY job for being intolerant. If I used that language on the ladder and my firm found out about it, they are well within their rights to terminate me.
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On March 09 2012 23:56 TSBspartacus wrote:
No, I think this is a mistake and you are being too sensitive over an issue that was just a personal mistake. I liked Orb, feel pretty bad for him now
To all people who share this opinion, let me remind you of something: Orb lied about it! He lied to his employers face on Lo3 is my understanding, while attacking those who pointed out how unlikely his story seemed. That is totally unacceptable behavior, he compounded his own problems and got what he deserved.
User was warned for this post
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On March 09 2012 23:16 LFish wrote:
ban racism - not words!
if someone uses "political incorrect words" without menaing to insult anyone you really shouldnt get upset.
this whole thread is an ridiculous overreaction.
seriously - i feel nothing but sad for everyone complaining about orb here.
100% agree
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I don't get all the commotion about a third rank caster, tbh I never heard about this guy before. We already have the established casters who represent E-sports because of the way they cast and their personality. If some new caster comes along and screws up in casting or representing/promoting e-sports, just give someone else a shot.
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On March 09 2012 23:58 Thrasherzs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 23:27 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 23:18 plogamer wrote:On March 09 2012 23:16 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 23:14 plogamer wrote:On March 09 2012 23:08 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 23:05 XRaDiiX wrote:On March 09 2012 23:04 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 22:59 ePLocust wrote:On March 09 2012 22:55 Ballistixz wrote:
[quote]
holy fuck.
let me spell it out for you.
orb has cleaned up his language as of late and he is VERY professional with his commentary. he hasnt been nearly as BM as he was in the past where these screenshots come from. EG still fires him despite orb going/trying to go clean.
keep being biased bro. I know it seems silly but in the real world things that you do and say in the past can and will come back and haunt you this is just an example of this. What I'd like to see is Orb keep casting on his own and really focusing on proving that he's cleaned up and I can forgive him. I agree with the decision made by Alex Garfield and EG here when someone is a recent hire you aren't invested heavily enough in them to keep them in the kind of shit storm that was whipped up. funny, because it hasnt haunted destiny yet, only made him money. even after the mia rose incident he is still on quantic. same for idra. but w/e. What happened? with mia Rose. basically sexually harrassed her LIVE on stream back in january. he constantly grabbed her boobs despite her obviously being uncomfortable with it and saying to stop it many times. but everyone batted an eye tot hat. go figure. this community makes me laugh honestly. I didn't know about it. And It is wrong and unacceptable of Destiny. But stop using it as an excuse. If you really believe that Destiny behaved inappropriately, then condemn that behaviour, dont hypocritically raise it to defend another person's behaviour. hyp·o·crite
noun
1.
a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. Don't pretend like you care about Destiny's behaviour. I do, and I don't watch Destiny's stream. I also publicly condemn his behaviour on this thread. See, no different than what I did with Orb. what? have you read any of my posts? I have. /edit You're raising Destiny's behaviour to excuse Orb's behaviour. Both are unacceptable. If you feel Destiny isn't being punished for his behaviour, contact his team/sponsors, make a thread about it, post it in his feedback thread, etc. its been done already, nothing happened because destiny has tons of fans. its been done with idra aswell but nothing has happened because he makes EG money. it happens with orb and he is fired because he is a nobdy. do you now get it? do you now see how stupid the community is? actually when you put it this way, that basically just sounds like life. the rich and famous get away with things a poor or unknown wouldnt. doesnt life suck
It might also be an indication that EGs moral standards are higher than those of Quantic's.
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Bullcrap. Orb didn't deserve this. Complete overreaction. Yeah the CEO doesn't like a word that Orb has used to rage at ladder opponents in the past so he's fired. Makes no sense whatsoever.
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EPT
