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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 23:16 LFish wrote:
ban racism - not words!
if someone uses "political incorrect words" without menaing to insult anyone you really shouldnt get upset.
this whole thread is an ridiculous overreaction.
seriously - i feel nothing but sad for everyone complaining about orb here.
Uhh, but he DID use them to insult someone.......
Are you serious?
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In Norway recently at the norwegian "grammy" (Spellemannsprisen) the band who won "hit of the year" (Plumbo) made a joke that was not intended as racist, but came out that way. They were presented the award by the biggest black musicians in Norway (Madcon) and said that upon seeing them their hit(møkkamann - loosely translated Crap-Man) could also be called "mocca-mann" which rimes, but plays on the fact that the presenters were black.
Beeing sent on the biggest national TV-channel in Norway, live prime-time on saturday night, this got a lot of attention and the band was in a shitstorm for quite a while. I agree that big organisations shouldnt allow themselves to be associated with racist behaviour, even tho offcourse Orb probably is no racist and the same goes for Plumbo, if we allow a little bit of everyday racism, the line gets pushed further and further away. I belive that the community will remember this situation, and hopefully we can all be a little more cautios before we use theese kind of words about random people, and one day the word will be out of our language forever
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On March 09 2012 23:27 figq wrote:
As I said before, EG, of course, is free to hire and fire people as they wish, but after some more contemplation, I can't hide that I'm personally disappointed with EG (yet again). In a case that revolves around what usually would be called "progressive thinking" (though I dislike the term, as I find it absurd and relative), issuing any kind of irreversible punishment is disturbing. The whole premise of overcoming any kind of bigotry and segregation is the belief in the human ability to adapt, change, evolve and not be set in stone by the past. In view of this, I find it disheartening to see doors being closed forever, for anyone, even for a murderer, let alone for a verbal abuser. That's not a sign of purity of principles, but rather a sign of fear and weakness. It took me some time to realize what was it that I found so subtly disturbing in EG's official position, and then I realized it was this.
Very good post, and very true indeed.
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Sucks for Orb, but he did this to himself.
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I'm obviously a bit late to the party but still wanted to express that I'm extremely pleasantly surprised how EG handled the situation. This can actually only benefit the community.
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On March 09 2012 23:27 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 23:18 plogamer wrote:On March 09 2012 23:16 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 23:14 plogamer wrote:On March 09 2012 23:08 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 23:05 XRaDiiX wrote:On March 09 2012 23:04 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 22:59 ePLocust wrote:On March 09 2012 22:55 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 22:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:
[quote]
If it bothers you so much that Idra only recently cleaned up his language and you aren't satisfied with the situation, go complain to EG's sponsors about it.
Just drop the ridiculous "he's still BM" argument because it makes you look silly and childish. By your standard the majority of players in every sport are immature, BM, and non-respectful, and much more so than Idra, trash-talk on an NBA court or an NFL field is a lot harsher than "You should be ashamed of yourself."
[quote]
"Nigger" and "faggot" aren't generic curses / insults just because you use them that way. That's what the "cultural standards" part of the OP was about. holy fuck. let me spell it out for you. orb has cleaned up his language as of late and he is VERY professional with his commentary. he hasnt been nearly as BM as he was in the past where these screenshots come from. EG still fires him despite orb going/trying to go clean. keep being biased bro. I know it seems silly but in the real world things that you do and say in the past can and will come back and haunt you this is just an example of this. What I'd like to see is Orb keep casting on his own and really focusing on proving that he's cleaned up and I can forgive him. I agree with the decision made by Alex Garfield and EG here when someone is a recent hire you aren't invested heavily enough in them to keep them in the kind of shit storm that was whipped up. funny, because it hasnt haunted destiny yet, only made him money. even after the mia rose incident he is still on quantic. same for idra. but w/e. What happened? with mia Rose. basically sexually harrassed her LIVE on stream back in january. he constantly grabbed her boobs despite her obviously being uncomfortable with it and saying to stop it many times. but everyone batted an eye tot hat. go figure. this community makes me laugh honestly. I didn't know about it. And It is wrong and unacceptable of Destiny. But stop using it as an excuse. If you really believe that Destiny behaved inappropriately, then condemn that behaviour, dont hypocritically raise it to defend another person's behaviour. hyp·o·crite
noun
1.
a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. Don't pretend like you care about Destiny's behaviour. I do, and I don't watch Destiny's stream. I also publicly condemn his behaviour on this thread. See, no different than what I did with Orb. what? have you read any of my posts? I have. /edit You're raising Destiny's behaviour to excuse Orb's behaviour. Both are unacceptable. If you feel Destiny isn't being punished for his behaviour, contact his team/sponsors, make a thread about it, post it in his feedback thread, etc. its been done already, nothing happened because destiny has tons of fans. its been done with idra aswell but nothing has happened because he makes EG money. it happens with orb and he is fired because he is a nobdy. do you now get it? do you now see how stupid the community is?
The most I can do for you is to personally boycott Idra and Destiny and make posts of condemnation when I am aware of such behaviour. But I have no magic wand to get them fired.
I take problem with the fact that you deny I have any right to criticize Orb's behaviour, when I have not treated him any differently than anyone else - to the best of my ability.
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On March 09 2012 12:58 BilltownRunner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 12:50 kibeth wrote:
I actually find your post overly condescending and obnoxious, and I like EG as an organization.
It's kind of like if I stole a toy from a grocery store when I was 8. Later in life I work there, and somehow someone finds out that a decade ago I stole a 99cent toy, and I was fired. Sounds ridiculous right? You are comparing stealing a 99cent toy as an 8 year old to an adult calling people n*****'s and f**''s? Sounds ridiculous, right?
Seriously, one of these is actually a crime in which there is a victim that incurs actual monetary damages and the other is mere linguistic wind blowing, incapable of causing any damage to anyone who understands the moral of the 'sticks and stones can break my bones' children's story, the right to which is defended by almost all modern constitutional republics.
I agree absolutely ridiclous.
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I am happy about how EG handled this. Because the thing that bugged me was how he lied to EG not really the rage on an online game, everyone has said hateful things out of rage in a game.
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This kind of reaction just shows how hypocritical people really are. How many times have we seen fans cheer for a player just because he was white? Apparently this is perfectly acceptable, but when someone says "nigger" it's time to throw a fit.
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On March 09 2012 20:29 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:28 TheSubtleArt wrote:On March 09 2012 20:16 dofz wrote:
Oh shit, if you ever seek to become something in the e-sport community you better make sure your background is so spotless that you could run for president without them finding much shit.
Also the post by EG that can't even type nigger, yet idra are calling people faggots, retards idiots left and right while on air, while being in a contract.
No I don't think idra should have been fired, I just find it really dumb how EG has double standards Well of course they do, is it not blatantly obvious that Idra adds more value to the organization than Orb? Welcome to the real world. You're endorsing corruption and double standards?
A caster vs a high profile player with a huge fanbase....who do you think will receive more leniency. Again, welcome to the real world
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I can respect the decision to dismiss orb from the side of Evil Genius. The OP gives good reasons for the dismissal and I find the way in which EG handled the situation very professional.
However I find the amount of Drama created around the issue staggering. What should have happened is that someone informed EG about orb's actions and provides proof for it (i.e. screenshot) and then it is up to EG to decide what to do with him. In this case people started campaigning against orb, stirring up more drama, even writing e-mails to the sponsors (WTF?). I can predict that 95% of the people who emailed the sponsors won't write another email saying that they are happy how EG managed the situation. That is not what they do. They contribute next to nothing to the Sc2 community but they are happy to ruin the career of anyone who puts himself out there creating content and who makes a mistake in the process. These people will look for the next target. Last week it was Katu, this week it's orb, who is it going be next week?
The double standards of these people, who obviously never did anything wrong themselves, is disgusting. I am not sure how to stop this trend but I hope it happens somehow.
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On March 09 2012 23:38 BrosephBrostar wrote:
This kind of reaction just shows how hypocritical people really are. How many times have we seen fans cheer for a player just because he was white? Apparently this is perfectly acceptable, but when someone says "nigger" it's time to throw a fit.
cheering for foreigners is completely different, first off your cheering not insulting for a minority and there isnt any insults to the koreans either so those situations are completely different.
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On March 09 2012 23:38 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:29 branflakes14 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:28 TheSubtleArt wrote:On March 09 2012 20:16 dofz wrote:
Oh shit, if you ever seek to become something in the e-sport community you better make sure your background is so spotless that you could run for president without them finding much shit.
Also the post by EG that can't even type nigger, yet idra are calling people faggots, retards idiots left and right while on air, while being in a contract.
No I don't think idra should have been fired, I just find it really dumb how EG has double standards Well of course they do, is it not blatantly obvious that Idra adds more value to the organization than Orb? Welcome to the real world. You're endorsing corruption and double standards? A caster vs a high profile player with a huge fanbase....who do you think will receive more leniency. Again, welcome to the real world
Well, I thought we were working towards a better world here?
I guess I might aswell say "welcome to the real world where everybody throws around the word nigger randomly".
It is honestly disgusting how much of a double-standard there is going on here by Alex Garfield, if anything I lost all my respect for EG who used to be my favorite team.
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On March 09 2012 23:30 Spykiller wrote:
In Norway recently at the norwegian "grammy" (Spellemannsprisen) the band who won "hit of the year" (Plumbo) made a joke that was not intended as racist, but came out that way. They were presented the award by the biggest black musicians in Norway (Madcon) and said that upon seeing them their hit(møkkamann - loosely translated Crap-Man) could also be called "mocca-mann" which rimes, but plays on the fact that the presenters were black.
Beeing sent on the biggest national TV-channel in Norway, live prime-time on saturday night, this got a lot of attention and the band was in a shitstorm for quite a while. I agree that big organisations shouldnt allow themselves to be associated with racist behaviour, even tho offcourse Orb probably is no racist and the same goes for Plumbo, if we allow a little bit of everyday racism, the line gets pushed further and further away. I belive that the community will remember this situation, and hopefully we can all be a little more cautios before we use theese kind of words about random people, and one day the word will be out of our language forever
How do you justifiy calling people retards? If we alllow a little bit of "retard-hating", then this will spread out and we will all be retard-haters in the future, and retards will be segregated from "normal people", and will have to use different toilets and can't use the same restaurant as normal people...
I hope the absurdity in the above illustrates that there really is no difference between retard and nigger. Sure niggers has a history but that is not relevant in discussing what is right or wrong. Segregation by law isn't wrong because US used to do it. Slavery wasn't wrong because people in the past did it. No its wrong becasue it violates human rights. But what Orb did had nothing to do with racism. If you fear it will spread out, then you will have to ban every kind of word that potentital could harm a minority.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On March 09 2012 23:38 BrosephBrostar wrote:
This kind of reaction just shows how hypocritical people really are. How many times have we seen fans cheer for a player just because he was white? Apparently this is perfectly acceptable, but when someone says "nigger" it's time to throw a fit.
I assume you are talking about the Korean vs. foreigner thing. National pride is completely different from racist insults and isn't the slightest bit offensive.
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On March 09 2012 23:34 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 23:27 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 23:18 plogamer wrote:On March 09 2012 23:16 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 23:14 plogamer wrote:On March 09 2012 23:08 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 23:05 XRaDiiX wrote:On March 09 2012 23:04 Ballistixz wrote:On March 09 2012 22:59 ePLocust wrote:On March 09 2012 22:55 Ballistixz wrote:
[quote]
holy fuck.
let me spell it out for you.
orb has cleaned up his language as of late and he is VERY professional with his commentary. he hasnt been nearly as BM as he was in the past where these screenshots come from. EG still fires him despite orb going/trying to go clean.
keep being biased bro. I know it seems silly but in the real world things that you do and say in the past can and will come back and haunt you this is just an example of this. What I'd like to see is Orb keep casting on his own and really focusing on proving that he's cleaned up and I can forgive him. I agree with the decision made by Alex Garfield and EG here when someone is a recent hire you aren't invested heavily enough in them to keep them in the kind of shit storm that was whipped up. funny, because it hasnt haunted destiny yet, only made him money. even after the mia rose incident he is still on quantic. same for idra. but w/e. What happened? with mia Rose. basically sexually harrassed her LIVE on stream back in january. he constantly grabbed her boobs despite her obviously being uncomfortable with it and saying to stop it many times. but everyone batted an eye tot hat. go figure. this community makes me laugh honestly. I didn't know about it. And It is wrong and unacceptable of Destiny. But stop using it as an excuse. If you really believe that Destiny behaved inappropriately, then condemn that behaviour, dont hypocritically raise it to defend another person's behaviour. hyp·o·crite
noun
1.
a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. Don't pretend like you care about Destiny's behaviour. I do, and I don't watch Destiny's stream. I also publicly condemn his behaviour on this thread. See, no different than what I did with Orb. what? have you read any of my posts? I have. /edit You're raising Destiny's behaviour to excuse Orb's behaviour. Both are unacceptable. If you feel Destiny isn't being punished for his behaviour, contact his team/sponsors, make a thread about it, post it in his feedback thread, etc. its been done already, nothing happened because destiny has tons of fans. its been done with idra aswell but nothing has happened because he makes EG money. it happens with orb and he is fired because he is a nobdy. do you now get it? do you now see how stupid the community is? The most I can do for you is to personally boycott Idra and Destiny and make posts of condemnation when I am aware of such behaviour. But I have no magic wand to get them fired. I take problem with the fact that you deny I have any right to criticize Orb's behaviour, when I have not treated him any differently than anyone else - to the best of my ability.
um no? i dont give a damn about what you think of orb, but your menatilty along with the rest of the community is what blew this entire situation out of proportion. ive already stated (if you read my previous post which you obviously did not) that i like destiny. i think he is a good zerg player and funny at times. what im angry about is how this situation was handled. a mob went with there pitchforks and guns, hunted down orb, and burned him mercilessly at the stake without knowing the guy or giving him a chance just because of one single word while IGNORING the much more severe offensive things other players have said/done in the past.
what you fail to understand is that my anger is directed at the community as a whole, NOT you. so i have no idea why you took my post as some personal attack against you when it wasnt.
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Perfect, well done. What is annoying is that people complained to sponsors over this. We are trying to get e-sports going and incidents like this with the community itself complaining to sponsors is not helping at all.
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On March 09 2012 23:38 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 20:29 branflakes14 wrote:On March 09 2012 20:28 TheSubtleArt wrote:On March 09 2012 20:16 dofz wrote:
Oh shit, if you ever seek to become something in the e-sport community you better make sure your background is so spotless that you could run for president without them finding much shit.
Also the post by EG that can't even type nigger, yet idra are calling people faggots, retards idiots left and right while on air, while being in a contract.
No I don't think idra should have been fired, I just find it really dumb how EG has double standards Well of course they do, is it not blatantly obvious that Idra adds more value to the organization than Orb? Welcome to the real world. You're endorsing corruption and double standards? A caster vs a high profile player with a huge fanbase....who do you think will receive more leniency. Again, welcome to the real world
A yes would've sufficed.
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Dont put nigger in the same category as faggot ...
Faggot is pretty used around men to insult each other , you can choose to be Gay but you cant choose to be black or white...
Also you are implicating that you consider black people inferior to yourself , like Hitler did with Jews , gypsies and other races!
Race and religion are subjects that should never be touched ...
User was banned for this post.
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Sounds like a ridiculous overreaction by a culture obsessed with political correctness.
Who was offended by what he'd said? Was it broadcast? Was it meant to be even anything but a private game? People are reacting as if this was a public statement.
Sad.
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EPT
