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On March 22 2012 00:39 Gulzt wrote:Instead I see people complain about rushes, or saying top bronze is still high.. That's not a good way to reflect. Blaming the system or the game is just denying what's really wrong in your play. I'd say the Dunning-Kruger effect is strong in these people. This guy is the only person in this thread who makes sense and I'm just quoting his link because clearly most people didn't go read it. It's amazing that people can be such slaves to their own egos that they manage to convince themselves shit like "actually high bronze players are pretty good!"
You guys have seen "looknohands" right? The disabled gamer who has no hands or feet and is in gold?
If you are stuck in bronze you are either not putting any time into playing, not applying yourself analytically to understanding your mistakes, or (less likely) you are held back by some serious physical or mental handicap. More serious than the guy who doesn't have fucking hands.
Plain and simple if you are not master yet and you have no physical disabilities, what's holding you back is the way you are playing the game. If you would stop making yourself excuses about how good your garbage league is and instead focus on yourself you would improve. Blaming outside factors can only serve to give you ammunition for a forums war. Blaming yourself and analyzing how you can improve will make you better.
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All the op needs is dApollos Guides for the 3 races on YouTube... If you watch that and manage to stay in bronze, you're doing it on purpose... May take you a week or so, but you are BOUND to advance... Anything else is just not possible...
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On March 21 2012 10:03 TacticalBadger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 07:54 mahi29 wrote:
This is pretty irritating to hear this sort of statement so constantly. People picking one replay/game and suddenly classifying 1/5 of the SC2 playing population by that game. Yes, there are some horrific gold players who I've wondered how they got into gold and then there are some gold players who are not completely horrible [relatively ofc]. I've played some gold players who are can macro well enough to not float minerals and hit their injects pretty well for atleast the first 7-10 minutes and its irritating to hear these statements generalizing an entire league when the division in it is pretty stark. A guy above you wrote that his girlfriend/wife is in high gold with 35 APM. I'm not sure if it's even possible to have 35 APM in this game, unless you don't touch the keyboard at all and I can't even imagine, how a person with 35 APM can be in gold. EU silvers typically have between 90 and 120 APM. I've had 100+ APM in high bronze. You don't get a 100 APM in a 30 minute game by accident and "fake" APM is very obvious.
What you and the guy who talked about watching the one "gold" player replay are doing is just proving apm and rank are absolutely meaningless. That "gold" player may have been someone similar to the guy a few posts above who somehow won 4/5 placement matches so it placed him in platinum. When I first started laddering in season 4 I somehow won 3/5 placement matches, well I somehow won 2, the 3rd the person left the game, and I was placed in gold although I wasn't anywhere near "gold". Even worse, it was right before a lock started so soon I was facing bronze players and they were like what?!? you're gold?
As far as apm is concerned I had about 20 apm when I got out of bronze, I am up to high silver now with 30-35 apm(blizzard apm). Most replays I watch people have ~60apm(high end is probably about ~80, while rarely do I see someone with apm as low as mine) and greater than 50% of the time I don't just win, I absolutely crush them. I'm facing almost exclusively top 25 gold and top 8 silvers(occasionally a top 8 gold or plat) its usually the top 25 golds I crush, while top 8 silvers are usually very even matches. So that tells me rank and apm are meaningless. I've only come across one player with over 100apm, a "silver" player and it was obvious he was a smurf/playing someone else's account, etc because looking through his history he won his previous 12 games in a row.
As far as the whole NA/EU thing, there are less players in EU than NA so naturally EU bottom 20% is going to be higher than NA 20%. The lower the population the harder it is to get out of a league, which adds into the whole rank and apm are meaningless.
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On March 21 2012 08:00 mahi29 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 04:25 Josh_rakoons wrote:
Masters on NA is actually pretty close to platinum/low diamond on EU and KR, some of the decisions and micro on that server is abysmal... Can someone please provide replays of a platinum player in EU taking multiple games of a masters player in NA. I'm not debating whether EU is better than NA or not - as I've never played on EU - but I find it incredulously hard to believe that if I'm plat on EU, I'm suddenly equivalent to masters on NA. Maybe high diamond(EU) == low masters (NA), but plat, seriously? And even then, how is it possible that the general European population is better than the general NA population. Its possible that at the very top, European pros are better than NA pros, but can someone explain why just the random plat player in Europe is much better than a random plat player in America.
From my own experience there is not much of a difference. I have accounts on both EU and NA and imo the average high dia/low masters on NA is just as good as the equivalent from EU. People saying stuff like "NA masters=EU plat" probably have no experience playing on both servers. I don't play on the KR server but i can imagine the general skill level being much higher there.
Ofc it is no secret that EU has more top pros than NA, but i'd say that anywhere below GM EU=NA skillwise.
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I feel bad for people who play that much and are so low  i got in 300~ wins from bronze to mid/high diamond, I didnt watch any day9 daily's (now I do for fun ;p). Just play and dont cheese/allin. There is no way you can be forever bad unless your like handicapped or something but I doubt it.
Ever considered asking for coaching or something?
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I can agree with the stuff said in 1), but not in 2). It seems weird to me that so many people (in bronze and maybe even silver) would get mentally exhausted after 1-3 games. Are people really that weak? It just seems like another way for higher level players to patronize the lower levels. "Poor things, don't have the same mental capacity as us higher beings". 
Apparently some people are. My friend's an engineer from a top 50 school so it's not that he's unintelligent, he just does not process things mentally as quickly as he needs. He can handle probably 1-2 tasks in SC2 at a time and if you push him beyond that, he quickly gets overwhelmed.
Mental limits can also be things like pride (don't tell me how to play), shame (I can't handle looking noob), stubbornness (I'm going to make this work despite the fact that it clearly doesn't). I don't really feel like my generalization needs to be defended too much. How many posts do we see in the Strategy forum from low-level players saying "omfg I don't know why I lost" and when the replay is viewed, there are tens of things that they did wrong that are glaringly obvious to anyone who's watched high-level play.
I would recommend that you look into the lifestyle of professional gamers. The thing that they got in common is that they spend extreme amounts of time on getting better. Some of them even move to Korea!! This is not something they share with most bronze and silver players. I can fully believe that professionals have a little extra talent, but most of the master and diamond players are better than bronze players simply because they put in more time, not because they are superior mentally.
I saw a guy in Bronze with 2000+ games won in season 4 which means he's probably played twice that roughly. Looking at his match history, he's not worker rushing or 6 pooling every game but actually playing them out. I can't even fathom how much time he has put into playing. There is something wrong here.
However, for people who are playing 5-6 games a week and play SC2 just like they would play Mario, meaning no strategy, thought, or effort, of course they'll be forever Bronze. My point is merely that if they are actually trying to improve, it's either a physical or mental block somewhere.
Anyways, this entire post goes a little against my sentiments in regards to making general statements of heterogeneous groups. We want to talk about true bronze players that probably won't make it out of bronze even with their best efforts, but how do we isolate these from all the others in the bronze league?
The pool's goals might be heterogenous but the reasons why they're in Bronze are probably not. I don't see an easy way to differentiate them nor the need to besides just asking if they want to improve.
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@TacticalBadger
It's not hard to get into Gold and sustain that with 35 APM. This is Blizz's APM, not true APM. It basically translates into doing 1 thing every 1.5 seconds. All my SO does is make production structures, queue a bunch of workers, expand when she needs gas, more more production structures and attacks when she has a few colossus. It's not that hard and it'll work up until Gold without scouting, reactions, specific timings, or anything like that.
2 port cloaked banshees with a C + 1a-move into their base will net you wins until Silver-Gold as well and probably takes even less APM.
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On March 22 2012 02:19 GloPikkle wrote:
I saw a guy in Bronze with 2000+ games won in season 4 which means he's probably played twice that roughly. Looking at his match history, he's not worker rushing or 6 pooling every game but actually playing them out. I can't even fathom how much time he has put into playing. There is something wrong here. I think most people in garbage leagues with such an incredible number of games, like thousands a month, are almost always portrait farming. I don't see how else they could stay down there, even if you never look at your replays or put any effort into analysis if you play thousands of games a month you'd have to learn enough by accident to at least go up to gold or so (where people are still totally fucking clueless.)
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And still the general level of play has increased tremendously. I've been high gold/plat forever, my lvl of play has increased quite a lot but so has the lvl of my opponents.
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On March 22 2012 01:00 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 23:17 Gulzt wrote:
He basically says, that you're limited physically(1) or mentally(2). I don't know what you could bring up against that. It's obvious and has no room for discussion. Maybe he doesn't give the examples that you find appropriate for your situation but it's either of two limits.
Oh, please. There are reasonably intelligent and physically intact people who get stuck in bronze. It's a combination of insufficient time spent playing the game and not necessarily learning skills or knowledge that better players take for granted. As a simple example, a player who doesn't bother to structure their play around learning hotkeys will probably stay in bronze forever regardless of any other choices they make.
How are those not physical or mental limits as pertains specifically to people who are in Bronze and want to get out of Bronze?
Time is indirectly a physical limitation because less practice means less precision, speed and consistency.
Not structuring their play around hotkeys is either due to stubbornness, ignorance or stupidity. The first two can be easily remedied and should not be a good reason for staying in Bronze, the last is a mental limit.
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On March 22 2012 02:31 Vladimir wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 02:19 GloPikkle wrote:
I saw a guy in Bronze with 2000+ games won in season 4 which means he's probably played twice that roughly. Looking at his match history, he's not worker rushing or 6 pooling every game but actually playing them out. I can't even fathom how much time he has put into playing. There is something wrong here. I think most people in garbage leagues with such an incredible number of games, like thousands a month, are almost always portrait farming. I don't see how else they could stay down there, even if you never look at your replays or put any effort into analysis if you play thousands of games a month you'd have to learn enough by accident to at least go up to gold or so (where people are still totally fucking clueless.)
Most but not all. This guy was actually playing them out in really retarded fashions based upon the build orders that he was using. You can usually tell portrait farmers because they're higher league at some point and suddenly they drop. I also do not see the point of continuing to play thousands of games across multiple seasons when presumably you've already gotten all the portraits that you can get.
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On March 08 2012 18:54 Vallz wrote:
As a terran I really disagree with going full on macro.
Honestly, terran in lower league suffers because we all know that terran needs more unit controls because they are alot more fragile. I think Terrans that are trying to get up should try to balance those 2 factors macro and micro to a good stable level.
Although macro should always have an edge over micro.
no man. in lower leagues you gotta spam A and maybe D a bit and make sure you are building supplies. Then you A-move your marine-marauder army and start over while adding bases. at some point you are gonna get it, therefore climb rankings.
as long as you cannot get the mechanics of the game to work fluently for you, MMA stutter step or Yugioh master dropping wont be useful cause you will be relying on your mouse instead of your keyboard. wich is bad.
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On March 22 2012 00:39 TacticalBadger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 07:54 mahi29 wrote:
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics.
If a bronze or a silver player has over 100 APM and can't get to AT LEAST gold, they are horrific, horrific players (and slow learners to boot). Also, no silver player anywhere in the world has "pretty solid mechanics". That is an egregious exaggeration. Take that from a mid masters player who knows how bad he is and how horrendous his own mechanics are.
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On March 22 2012 00:39 TacticalBadger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 07:54 mahi29 wrote:
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics.
Please do not overvalue the Bronze league players. 100+ is not uncommon? I've been coaching a friend this week. We've played ~45 games in bronze league and we've watched every replay. Literally no player had an APM higher then 40/50. The only player that had a higher APM was a masterleague player who was smurfing the lower leagues for pictures. He had average 120 APM. Saying that 100+ APM for an bronze player is not uncommon means you have no idea about bronze league players. In comparison: my APM is 70 average as Diamond Zerg, which is a little lower than average probably. While showing my buddy how to play, no player came close to my macro, which is normal (just like I'm no match for Master players).
I'm not bashing on Bronze players. APM doesn't mean anything and I noticed that most bronze just wanna play the game and are not afraid of losing. In contrary to Diamond/Master where ego players a bigger role. But please don't overvalue the Bronze league players like it's really not that bad..cause it is.
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On March 08 2012 18:36 bigbeau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote:
I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'. I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground. The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
How is this not true? There are definitely cheeses out there that you nor I even know about. Bad players are hard to read. I beat masters/diamond players because they can be read and I know what to do against them. Plat/Gold players seemingly have the weirdest builds I have seen in my life and when I analyze my replays I honestly have no idea "wtf" they are doing.
Day 9 also said that. Bad players cannot be read. (I forget the daily but it was in the last recent months of his casting). \
If you cannot win you are bad? Lol. Get out please. With this logic that means Pros are bad.
EDIT: BTW I play all races at a Gold Korean level and Platinum NA level.
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Sooooo... Can anyone actually provide a recent replay of a silver/high bronze playing terribly (not badly, but TERRIBLY as in: what the hell is this guy doing)? Here's a completely random example of bronze versus bronze I dug up. The players are indeed bad (the protoss had 40 workers on 1 mine at some point), but it's a far cry from "has 5 zealots at 15 minute mark" or whatever bronzers are supposed to be doing.
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I can beat my top plat friend with nothing but macro. I don't play safe, I play borderline greedy. But because my macro is good, it doesn't matter what cheese my opponent throws at me I will have more stuff than him. You think bronze players' CRAZY UNPREDICTABLE cheese is any good? No, the reason why its unpredictable is because they are doing something horribly wrong, their macro sucks, they have no concept of gas timing.
If you can't hold off a cheese that is probably arriving 3 minutes late with bruteforce units, then your macro sucks as well. The cheese in bronze is god awful and who cares if its unpredictable, it sucks.
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On March 22 2012 00:56 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 00:45 papaz wrote:On March 22 2012 00:41 Tobberoth wrote:On March 22 2012 00:39 TacticalBadger wrote:On March 21 2012 07:54 mahi29 wrote:
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics. Yes it does. I literally win in gold as terran, my worst off race, by only building marines and no scouting. It's literally that simple. On EU. In 2012. Not that I doubt you but you and a lot of others in this thread do a lot of talk without showing anything. In the strategy section of TL this kind of talk would be unacceptable. Now instead of just responding with "I can do X in league Y", just like in strategy section, provide a couple of replays. Let's say I post the replays of me winning with nothing but planetary fortresses built in the middle of the map. People like you would simply retort "but I wouldn't lose to that!" Well, fact is, even if you wouldn't lose to something like that, you're still in the league with people who will. If you weren't bad you wouldn't be in the league filled with so many bad players. Maybe you have perfected the arcane art of making 22 workers on 1 base, pumping out random units, and attack moving. Cool. The reality is, though, if you're not out of bronze by doing that, something else is terribly, terribly wrong with you. Because you're in the league populated by people who have no fucking clue what they're doing. If you can't win more than 50% of the time against players who don't even know how to play the game and get promoted out of bronze, then guess what: you don't know how to play, either.
First of all I am not in bronze league and second of all despite not being in a high league (I am gold) I have no illusion about my skill. I frankly have fun playing SC2 and trying to improve.
Now, the question is not if A bronze leaguer or any X leaguer would lose to the strategy you are proposing. The question is, will you have a win ratio above 50% with the strategy you are claiming is valid in league X.
I have seen all kinds of losses from bronze to grandmaster on streams and laughed at them. Just because there is a person here and there losing doesn't prove anything.
At least there was a guy a page or two ago giving me the link to Destiny going mass queens in many games showing you can actually play that strategy up to league whatever league he managed to get up to.
Now instead of giving one example of you winning with planetery fortresses, get to bronze and get out of bronze with the planetery only strategy.
Then you have made your point.
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From getting feedback from higher level players on my replays, the only issue with my game seems to be lack of consistent scouting. I'll initially poke around a little bit, but then fail to keep coming back.
It's just hard for me to process that lack of consistent scouting is keeping me Forever Bronze. I rarely get scouted more than once at the beginning of the game on ladder. Sometimes not even that.
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EPT
