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On March 21 2012 07:24 GloPikkle wrote:
For Bronze level players who don't understand why they can't get out of Bronze, there's probably a good deal of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
At every level, including pros, one should always see areas to improve. There seems to be 2 major reasons why someone who is Bronze, stays in Bronze despite playing 10+ games a day.
1) They are already at their physical limit for how fast they can press buttons, move the mouse, click buttons, direct stuff. My SO has an APM of about 35 and she physically cannot do stuff faster. With that said, she's high Gold so maybe that's where the Gold threshold is.
2) They are already at their mental limit. I have a friend who is exhausted mentally after 1 game because there are too many things to think about and he gets overwhelmed. He is in Gold and does not have the mental fortitude to play more than 3 games at a time. Some people are not quick decision-makers. Some people cannot plan more than 1-2 steps ahead and therefore cannot think past the mid-game. Some people just are not analytical enough to figure out what they're doing wrong and even when told, cannot extrapolate concepts beyond the exact situation that they are given (this is obvious given the hundreds of (H) threads of Diamond and below players not being able to figure out why they lost).
I can agree with the stuff said in 1), but not in 2). It seems weird to me that so many people (in bronze and maybe even silver) would get mentally exhausted after 1-3 games. Are people really that weak? It just seems like another way for higher level players to patronize the lower levels. "Poor things, don't have the same mental capacity as us higher beings". 
I would recommend that you look into the lifestyle of professional gamers. The thing that they got in common is that they spend extreme amounts of time on getting better. Some of them even move to Korea!! This is not something they share with most bronze and silver players. I can fully believe that professionals have a little extra talent, but most of the master and diamond players are better than bronze players simply because they put in more time, not because they are superior mentally.
Anyways, this entire post goes a little against my sentiments in regards to making general statements of heterogeneous groups. We want to talk about true bronze players that probably won't make it out of bronze even with their best efforts, but how do we isolate these from all the others in the bronze league?
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On March 21 2012 20:09 Zythius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 07:24 GloPikkle wrote:
For Bronze level players who don't understand why they can't get out of Bronze, there's probably a good deal of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
At every level, including pros, one should always see areas to improve. There seems to be 2 major reasons why someone who is Bronze, stays in Bronze despite playing 10+ games a day.
1) They are already at their physical limit for how fast they can press buttons, move the mouse, click buttons, direct stuff. My SO has an APM of about 35 and she physically cannot do stuff faster. With that said, she's high Gold so maybe that's where the Gold threshold is.
2) They are already at their mental limit. I have a friend who is exhausted mentally after 1 game because there are too many things to think about and he gets overwhelmed. He is in Gold and does not have the mental fortitude to play more than 3 games at a time. Some people are not quick decision-makers. Some people cannot plan more than 1-2 steps ahead and therefore cannot think past the mid-game. Some people just are not analytical enough to figure out what they're doing wrong and even when told, cannot extrapolate concepts beyond the exact situation that they are given (this is obvious given the hundreds of (H) threads of Diamond and below players not being able to figure out why they lost).
I can agree with the stuff said in 1), but not in 2). It seems weird to me that so many people (in bronze and maybe even silver) would get mentally exhausted after 1-3 games. Are people really that weak? It just seems like another way for higher level players to patronize the lower levels. "Poor things, don't have the same mental capacity as us higher beings". I would recommend that you look into the lifestyle of professional gamers. The thing that they got in common is that they spend extreme amounts of time on getting better. Some of them even move to Korea!! This is not something they share with most bronze and silver players. I can fully believe that professionals have a little extra talent, but most of the master and diamond players are better than bronze players simply because they put in more time, not because they are superior mentally. Anyways, this entire post goes a little against my sentiments in regards to making general statements of heterogeneous groups. We want to talk about true bronze players that probably won't make it out of bronze even with their best efforts, but how do we isolate these from all the others in the bronze league?
He basically says, that you're limited physically(1) or mentally(2). I don't know what you could bring up against that. It's obvious and has no room for discussion. Maybe he doesn't give the examples that you find appropriate for your situation but it's either of two limits.
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On March 19 2012 23:38 Zythius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 23:01 HaruRH wrote:On March 19 2012 21:43 Zythius wrote:
The big problem that some of you are missing is that a bronze player isn't a homogeneous thing. So you can't really make statements that cover all bronze players. There is everything from complete newbs that doesn't know about the hotkey function to people like the ones described in the original post.
Let's face it - progress up the ladder requires not only skill, but also time. Not all of us has time for this. This progress is slowed even more when 50 % of the time you are putting in is dedicated to doing funday mondays and cheese (because just playing normal is boring). I'm in bronze because of this, but I have beaten diamond level players.
Also, the lower divisions have changed a lot since SC2 was released.
Another Bronze bragging about how good he is. Let's be even more honest here. It took me less than 2 days of playing 2 hours a day (10 mins a game average?) to progress from bronze to silver for a smurf I had. If you have the macro-micro skills, even doing funday mondays and cheese will make you win the game. Lower divisions never changed. Bronze is still a cluster of macro-less players who thinks that building workers every 10 in-game minutes works. Or some very weak cheese that can be easily deflected. Always nice to start off with a good old Ad hominem ;-) First of all, personal experience is not good grounds for generalization. And how can I confirm what you said about your smurf account? Secondly, do you attempt every single funday monday? And do you really commit to it, or do you just take a normal cookie cutter strategy and make the least possible changes to it? I think the lower levels have changed. The reasoning behind this statement? The game has been out for some time, and people have learned a lot of stuff. And you also need to lay off the general statements you make concerning a league you don't even play in. As I said, "bronze players" are not a homogeneous group. Some of them might think building workers every 10 minutes is viable, but it does not apply to all bronze players (and this makes your statement is incorrect).
I demand all Bronze players who claim they are stuck in bronze to attach at least one replay of their play.
I do most funday mondays concerning Zerg and Protoss in the DIAMOND league. I still do not find much problem there. And yes, I tried the most cheesy, out-of-comfort zone strategies for all funday mondays I attempt.
The only way you're stuck in Bronze and not advancing would be that someone (or you) lost 100 games in a row.
If you claim personal statements are false, can I assume your whole argument is invalid because it is out of your personal experience? Stop trying to argue about the homogeneous group. It really do not matter as even with a little bit of effort, you'll make it out of bronze. Very true.
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I played bot games since SC2 came out and only finally started to play vs people. I tried one of the 50 practice games only to realize it's played in super slow mode. I stomped one game of that and then skipped the rest.
I played my 5 placement matches and won them all except one. (Beat two silver, two gold and lost to a gold leaguer)
I was then placed in platinum league (huh?), and started losing every game.. over and over.. and over. Kind of put me off playing vs people at all if the match making is just going to put me against ridiculously experienced players until I tank enough games.
I would LOVE to be in bronze league against people of my own calibur.
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Gultz,
What you are writing is not really relevant for my part in this discussion. I'm not here to argue about the skill level of people truly stuck in bronze - what got me into this thread is that the bronze league is not a group of similar players. But they are treated that way. I also commented on GloPikkle's post because some of it seemed a little bit wrong. For instance: players in bronze, silver and gold in general lack mental fortitude. That is a crazy statement with little or no data to back it up. Of course many of them are lacking in that respect, but such a general statement is not viable. However, not really related to my original post in this thread - it was just something that caught my eye.
HaruRH,
I still haven't seen any proof of your stories. Personally I try not to make my whole argument rest on anecdotes. But that is besides the point. You tell me to stop talking about homogeneous and heterogeneous groups - I recommend you check up on those concepts. Because, believe me, I am not going against what most of you guys are saying.. Just read what I wrote in the above paragraph, and you will see.
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On March 21 2012 23:43 xlz1040 wrote:
I played bot games since SC2 came out and only finally started to play vs people. I tried one of the 50 practice games only to realize it's played in super slow mode. I stomped one game of that and then skipped the rest.
I played my 5 placement matches and won them all except one. (Beat two silver, two gold and lost to a gold leaguer)
I was then placed in platinum league (huh?), and started losing every game.. over and over.. and over. Kind of put me off playing vs people at all if the match making is just going to put me against ridiculously experienced players until I tank enough games.
I would LOVE to be in bronze league against people of my own calibur.
You should be at least gold if you managed to beat majority of silver and gold players. The ladder system is built around the idea of progressing further in skill, so you set your MMR high enough to be that plus more and gave you plat to give you a higher threshold to overcome to get better.
If you play bronze at the skill you probably are then you'll just breeze through people just like the people in plat playing you. Take it as a compliment to be plat in your first season because it proves the AI games you've played weren't for nothing.
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On March 21 2012 07:54 mahi29 wrote:
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics.
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On March 21 2012 23:55 Zythius wrote:
Gultz,
What you are writing is not really relevant for my part in this discussion. I'm not here to argue about the skill level of people truly stuck in bronze - what got me into this thread is that the bronze league is not a group of similar players. But they are treated that way. I also commented on GloPikkle's post because some of it seemed a little bit wrong. For instance: players in bronze, silver and gold in general lack mental fortitude. That is a crazy statement with little or no data to back it up. Of course many of them are lacking in that respect, but such a general statement is not viable. However, not really related to my original post in this thread - it was just something that caught my eye.
I think we agree but misunderstand each other. I feel any active player does not belong in Bronze. Being placed in that league means you have yourself to blame for it. For physical or mental reasons, something is up that is holding you back.
Instead I see people complain about rushes, or saying top bronze is still high.. That's not a good way to reflect. Blaming the system or the game is just denying what's really wrong in your play. I'd say the Dunning-Kruger effect is strong in these people.
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On March 22 2012 00:39 TacticalBadger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 07:54 mahi29 wrote:
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics.
Yes it does. I literally win in gold as terran, my worst off race, by only building marines and no scouting. It's literally that simple.
On EU. In 2012.
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On March 22 2012 00:41 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 00:39 TacticalBadger wrote:On March 21 2012 07:54 mahi29 wrote:
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics. Yes it does. I literally win in gold as terran, my worst off race, by only building marines and no scouting. It's literally that simple. On EU. In 2012.
Not that I doubt you but you and a lot of others in this thread do a lot of talk without showing anything.
In the strategy section of TL this kind of talk would be unacceptable.
Now instead of just responding with "I can do X in league Y", just like in strategy section, provide a couple of replays.
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On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote:
I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
if thats true, then my dog would stand a good chance against the old bronze leaguers.
discounting macro and micro (which are things that are learnt with repetition), the only difference between bronze players and the pros is how much thought they actually put into the game. not that hard to get to diamond level to be fair.
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On March 22 2012 00:45 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 00:41 Tobberoth wrote:On March 22 2012 00:39 TacticalBadger wrote:On March 21 2012 07:54 mahi29 wrote:
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics. Yes it does. I literally win in gold as terran, my worst off race, by only building marines and no scouting. It's literally that simple. On EU. In 2012. Not that I doubt you but you and a lot of others in this thread do a lot of talk without showing anything. In the strategy section of TL this kind of talk would be unacceptable. Now instead of just responding with "I can do X in league Y", just like in strategy section, provide a couple of replays.
http://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=329BDD535CB76B3A&session_token=II3ljgAxouPix8aOO72rSw7UKTx8MTMzMjQzMTUzN0AxMzMyMzQ1MTM3
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Tempting to be dis-heartened reading through this thread; but if a thread can have that affect on you, it's probably for similar reasons that you feel stuck in bronze; lack of determination and and a battle worn mentality maybe? Of course higher skilled/league players are going to see us as bad players - seems pretty logical, however competent we may feel.
I've been too long in bronze - but it's not hard to see why when I watch my replays. I realised a couple of months ago that whilst I'd improved alot with my Macro, my faults lay with activity on the map - i'm working on this now and do pretty well. I'm sure I'll break out of bronze soon, with practice. I did think it was due to my age and slower brain (?!), I'm 40. However, I don't think this anymore ; it was just a convenient excuse for bad play. If it was age related I would be slow in all the other games I play; and i'm pretty good at them (tf2, SFIV + CS mostly).
I allowed 'ladder anxiety' to creep in at one point; over it now and practicing most days. Someone posted earlier that they think Bronze level play is harder now due to the time the game has been out; but I doubt that, it's all relative (apart from maybe a couple of months after launch where those with SC1 history probably picked up sc2 skills quicker).
Started playing SC2 in September 2011. It's the first RTS I've played (vs Humans at least - always enjoyed C&C/AoE etc). Online. I played two seasons finishing top 8 bronze on EU; bought a second copy of SC2 for NA; placed bronze. Re the region devide points mentioned earlier; I don't feel there is a skill gap between the two servers; bad and less bad players on each imo.
I think it's a shame if you accept you are 'forever bronze' - even if you just play for fun. Part of that fun must come from the competitive aspects of playing sc2? No? Fight on fellow warriors - I firmly believe we'll all progress out of bronze with regular practice, freeing up some space for new joiners to the game and those that practice less - or those returning to the game having failed to get to grips with it when they first bought it, moving on to other games, only to return as they consume more and more eSports event action /VoD's/ eTV (Day(9) - ITG, SOTG etc, and want to join in the fun!
TLDR: Bronzies of Liquid unite - but not to sit back and accept the mediocre; rather to encourage each other to see the game for what it is - Hard! - and better ourselves with our dedication to the task. It's going to be alot more fun to improve our skills; and therefore have a broader pool of players to best whilst having fun, than to sit back and accept it. If I felt any other way, I may as well be playing Sim City.
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On March 22 2012 00:45 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 00:41 Tobberoth wrote:On March 22 2012 00:39 TacticalBadger wrote:On March 21 2012 07:54 mahi29 wrote:
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics. Yes it does. I literally win in gold as terran, my worst off race, by only building marines and no scouting. It's literally that simple. On EU. In 2012. Not that I doubt you but you and a lot of others in this thread do a lot of talk without showing anything. In the strategy section of TL this kind of talk would be unacceptable. Now instead of just responding with "I can do X in league Y", just like in strategy section, provide a couple of replays.
Let's say I post the replays of me winning with nothing but planetary fortresses built in the middle of the map. People like you would simply retort "but I wouldn't lose to that!"
Well, fact is, even if you wouldn't lose to something like that, you're still in the league with people who will. If you weren't bad you wouldn't be in the league filled with so many bad players. Maybe you have perfected the arcane art of making 22 workers on 1 base, pumping out random units, and attack moving. Cool. The reality is, though, if you're not out of bronze by doing that, something else is terribly, terribly wrong with you. Because you're in the league populated by people who have no fucking clue what they're doing. If you can't win more than 50% of the time against players who don't even know how to play the game and get promoted out of bronze, then guess what: you don't know how to play, either.
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On March 21 2012 23:17 Gulzt wrote:
He basically says, that you're limited physically(1) or mentally(2). I don't know what you could bring up against that. It's obvious and has no room for discussion. Maybe he doesn't give the examples that you find appropriate for your situation but it's either of two limits.
Oh, please.
There are reasonably intelligent and physically intact people who get stuck in bronze. It's a combination of insufficient time spent playing the game and not necessarily learning skills or knowledge that better players take for granted.
As a simple example, a player who doesn't bother to structure their play around learning hotkeys will probably stay in bronze forever regardless of any other choices they make.
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On March 22 2012 00:52 CptCutter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote:
I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be. if thats true, then my dog would stand a good chance against the old bronze leaguers.
Many of the original round of bronze league players were like my 6 year old half-brother, who likes to play protoss and gets his sixth zealot around minute 20.
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On March 22 2012 00:45 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 00:41 Tobberoth wrote:On March 22 2012 00:39 TacticalBadger wrote:On March 21 2012 07:54 mahi29 wrote:
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics. Yes it does. I literally win in gold as terran, my worst off race, by only building marines and no scouting. It's literally that simple. On EU. In 2012. Not that I doubt you but you and a lot of others in this thread do a lot of talk without showing anything. In the strategy section of TL this kind of talk would be unacceptable. Now instead of just responding with "I can do X in league Y", just like in strategy section, provide a couple of replays.
I'll look into it when I get home, if I still have the replays I would gladly share them. There's me going only marines for a whole game, winning of 3 base vs top 8 silver terran who is going bio tank. I think I have a game where I go CC first into marine marauder and destroy a top 8 silver protoss player as well. If the replays are saved, they might prove my point somewhat.
That said, I'm not going to tank my account into bronze just to prove that macro is enough to get out of it, it's already been proven over and over and is only doubted by the people in bronze themselves, and no matter how many replays you post, they are going to claim that they are different, that you had lucky encounters, that THOSE tactics work because they are weird... It's denial and you can't get around that with proof.
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You know who consider themselves as hardcore? Platinum players. And I'm being objective here. I play 3v3, 4v4 and FFA quite a lot so I meet players from every league and 90% of BMs come from Platinum. Anybody else noticed this?
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Hi, I posted this 2 replays some days ago (and I got a little help); I see that the thread is more active now and that some people have asked for replays of people stucked in bronze, so here they are again... I somebody could help me, that would be great
On March 14 2012 16:33 milodon wrote:Im one of those players who is stuck in bronze despite playing regularly (I watch day9 ocasionally, I watch a lot of VODS but no too many replays). I think I have definitly improved in the last year, but the rest of people seems to improve faster than I do. I have tried to stick with a build (1 barraks expand) and improve my macro, but my multitasking is really bad and if I ever try to micro, I find myself suddenly floating on 1k minerals. These are replays for the last 2 games I played, against protoss (win) and against zerg (lost). http://replayfu.com/download/6jwSrk (protoss) http://replayfu.com/download/qr7TGt (zerg) Could somebody help with something? I know that I have A LOT to work on, Im just plain horrible (at one moment in the vs zerg game, If i remember correctly, I think I missclicked and turn a CC into a planetary inside my main. At first I thought not to post THAT replay, its a little more embarrasing, but I decided to be sincere and post just the two latest games that I have played. These 2 are from yesterday). But my question is: is my gameplay equally bad in all aspects?? Or is there a singularity, ONE THING that is fundamentally wrong for some who has been playing for more than a year now? I like the game and I play for fun, but when you know how the ladder works, its a little frustrating to still be in the low 20% after playing that much. I really would apreciate if some one could watch a replay (and sorry for the bad english!)
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On March 22 2012 01:12 Tobberoth wrote:
I'll look into it when I get home, if I still have the replays I would gladly share them. There's me going only marines for a whole game, winning of 3 base vs top 8 silver terran who is going bio tank. I think I have a game where I go CC first into marine marauder and destroy a top 8 silver protoss player as well. If the replays are saved, they might prove my point somewhat.
And what is this supposed to prove exactly? That a guy who's (presumably) playing this game since release can beat a top 8 silver with marines and marauders?
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EPT
