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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 22 2012 21:16 Zythius wrote: I think that multitasking and inductive/deductive reasoning are important skills - not talents Of those two, multitasking is BY FAR the more important. A player can have very strong analytical reasoning skills and still be a weak Starcraft player. | ||
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
On March 21 2012 08:00 mahi29 wrote: Can someone please provide replays of a platinum player in EU taking multiple games of a masters player in NA. I'm not debating whether EU is better than NA or not - as I've never played on EU - but I find it incredulously hard to believe that if I'm plat on EU, I'm suddenly equivalent to masters on NA. Maybe high diamond(EU) == low masters (NA), but plat, seriously? And even then, how is it possible that the general European population is better than the general NA population. Its possible that at the very top, European pros are better than NA pros, but can someone explain why just the random plat player in Europe is much better than a random plat player in America. Don't listen to that idiot you quoted. I play on EU and NA and am masters on both servers, plus I get a bit of latency playing on EU. EU players seem to think people from NA are all brain dead fat people or something and can't stand to be compared equally to NA players which is annoying, and wrong. Not like it really matters what they think though, they'll just underestimate NA players in online tourneys and lose for it. | ||
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
On March 22 2012 03:47 GloPikkle wrote: I guarantee that scouting is not your only problem if you're Forever Bronze. What race do you play? I agree, those "higher level" players he's getting advice from obviously aren't very good, or intelligent. | ||
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clownfish
Angola25 Posts
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Zythius
Norway94 Posts
On March 22 2012 22:25 Lysenko wrote: Of those two, multitasking is BY FAR the more important. A player can have very strong analytical reasoning skills and still be a weak Starcraft player. Yeah, I believe it is the most important as well. Good multitasking allows you to reap benefits from both microing and macroing, and it means that you can handle stressful situations at the same time as you are stressing the opponent. However, good analytical reasoning skills are also very important. It's about taking into account what you can observe and putting it into a big picture that maps out possible courses of action for both you and your opponent. Both of these skills can be trained. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 22 2012 22:51 Zythius wrote: Yeah, I believe it is the most important as well. Good multitasking allows you to reap benefits from both microing and macroing, and it means that you can handle stressful situations at the same time as you are stressing the opponent. However, good analytical reasoning skills are also very important. It's about taking into account what you can observe and putting it into a big picture that maps out possible courses of action for both you and your opponent. Both of these skills can be trained. Only if the analysing can be done *quickly*. Ever seen a bad player scout a base and completely stop worker production back home? That's too much time spent trying to figure out what build the opponent is using. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 22 2012 22:44 clownfish wrote: All of these discussions are absolutely crazy. Do you really think its the higher level in bronze that is holding you back? There's a bunch of arguments made in the thread, none of them really connected. 1) Bronze players are on average better than they used to be. Almost certainly true, but not related to the other two points. 2) TL posters outside of bronze league keep making up bronze league behaviours that people actually in or near bronze league don't see as accurate. This could be explained by the big skill range within bronze. A high league probably smurfs the bottom of bronze and sees the worst examples, anyone competent enough to analyze their own replays and genuinely trying to get out of bronze is probably near the top of that league. 3) The nature vs nurture debate on SC2 skill. On one extreme, people who believe that otherwise normally functioning(ie not retarded in the original sense of the word) people might well be skillcapped in bronze. Vs people who assume they're all brain damaged or something. | ||
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Pygmalion
France1 Post
On March 22 2012 03:13 TacticalBadger wrote: Sooooo... Can anyone actually provide a recent replay of a silver/high bronze playing terribly (not badly, but TERRIBLY as in: what the hell is this guy doing)? I can provide you with lots of recent replays showing for example : - a silver Terran going mass BCs and Marines (no medivacs) against Zerg - a bronze Terran expanding at 25 minutes, when his main runs out of minerals - a silver Protoss trying to stop a mutalisk harass with zealots - a silver Zerg player opening with 2 pools followed by 2 evolution chambers People in low leagues are indeed clueless about how the game works and what the buildings or units are used for ... | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 22 2012 23:53 Pygmalion wrote: I can provide you with lots of recent replays showing for example : - a silver Terran going mass BCs and Marines (no medivacs) against Zerg - a bronze Terran expanding at 25 minutes, when his main runs out of minerals - a silver Protoss trying to stop a mutalisk harass with zealots - a silver Zerg player opening with 2 pools followed by 2 evolution chambers People in low leagues are indeed clueless about how the game works and what the buildings or units are used for ... Heh, wish I met more of those people when *I* ladder in silver. Maybe one in twenty does something slightly odd, like doing a Forge First opening against Terran, but its mostly super standard stuff. Terrans go marine/tank/viking, protoss go gateway+colossi, zerg go lingblingmuta, sometimes with roaches. I can't remember the last time I played someone and thought "woah, this guy must be straight outta placements and landed in the wrong league". I see more smurfs and instaleavers tbh. | ||
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YaShock
Hungary119 Posts
On March 08 2012 18:51 ScienceNotBusiness wrote: ya...pro players dont realize that they have a gift, it's not just practice all day derp derp. lots of people that are really smart and cant break out of 'x' league. it's all about your current mental state irl, and you evaluate what ur doing in real time in game using that mental state. i myself think that many factors irl hold me back at least 1 or 2 leagues, as i alrerady have all the knowledge and coordination required, i basically just freak out in game, and if u dont think u are, well u probably are anyway, cuz its built into ur scrubness. oh, and pro players have mastered clicking buttons in the proper order, and that shit is just dumb nerd shit u need to practice....has nothing to do with any "real" skill... User was warned for this post That's a stupid argument. I've been in master since it the day it was added, and I don't have time to play much. In average I play 1 hour a day (of course that's just an average, at weekends I can play for few hours, but at weekdays I usually don't have time at all). And I sometimes teach or just have fun with lower leagues. I don't play seriously, so I can just play with 30 APM and still beat them, or making stupid stuff like mass queens. Macro and micro is a big part of real skill, it doesn't matter if you are clever or not, but the strategies that pros or simple masters use are much better than those which are used by bronze players. It doesn't mean you are a nerd if you "mastered clicking buttons in a the proper order". I have seen bronze players with 10 times more games player than me, it doesn't make me a nerd, and them full of life, it means they are just simply stupid. When someone has over 5000 league wins (and most of it 1v1) and still being in bronze, it means he's stupid that's all. | ||
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YaShock
Hungary119 Posts
On March 23 2012 00:20 Monkeyballs25 wrote: Heh, wish I met more of those people when *I* ladder in silver. Maybe one in twenty does something slightly odd, like doing a Forge First opening against Terran, but its mostly super standard stuff. Terrans go marine/tank/viking, protoss go gateway+colossi, zerg go lingblingmuta, sometimes with roaches. I can't remember the last time I played someone and thought "woah, this guy must be straight outta placements and landed in the wrong league". I see more smurfs and instaleavers tbh. Yah the people who smurf in bronze just to farm portrait are really stupid nerds. I mean it's just a portrait, and you ruin others' games who don't even stand a chance. But they aren't gonna be good, I mean REALLY good, so they are wasting their time with portrait hunt. | ||
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GloPikkle
United States197 Posts
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noD
2230 Posts
I started bronze without ever playing then got here to tl watched a lot of pro games d9 etc etc got really good and never got out of top silver then a friend borrowed me an acc i did plat then another friend lent me his br account i did diamond (more than 1.5 to 2 yr ago) after 56 weeks i played this game again didnt even remember the keys ... I only did proxy inside their base gateway was still ranked gold I actually think that those lower leagues don't teach you nothing but to be bad, you must just learn an all in (4 gates bane bust or whatever its good nowadays) and all in your way to plat+ then u can start learning with your games, staying in bronze-silver is not even funny. If you know tl url u shouldnt be anything bellow plat .... | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 23 2012 01:40 noD wrote: If you know tl url u shouldnt be anything bellow plat .... Such a shame when reality doesn't conform to your preconceptions... | ||
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milodon
Chile42 Posts
Here are the jewels: http://replayfu.com/download/v0SdJt http://replayfu.com/download/MQpLtk http://replayfu.com/download/wPxfLq http://replayfu.com/download/4DvWfg http://replayfu.com/download/VPq1qk http://replayfu.com/download/95Fkkp http://replayfu.com/download/P3fMvn http://replayfu.com/download/XPBxJt http://replayfu.com/download/DXFCJn | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
On March 23 2012 02:28 milodon wrote: For anyone who is still wondering what is the current level in bronze, this are my last TEN replays (no selection, 5 games today and 5 yesterday). THIS is bronze. And yes, some of the battles can be entertaining if you put some Benny Hill music in the background. Watching some of the replays made me realize even more how much I suck (but, even so, there's no mass Queens, PF rushes or stuff like that... well, except for a replay of a match with a guy who didnt know the units, aparently he was just starting with the game - he didn`t know medivacs could drop and was very surprised by that fact, and somehow was in Silver. Yep, that guy was higher than me). Here are the jewels: http://replayfu.com/download/v0SdJt http://replayfu.com/download/MQpLtk http://replayfu.com/download/wPxfLq http://replayfu.com/download/4DvWfg http://replayfu.com/download/VPq1qk http://replayfu.com/download/95Fkkp http://replayfu.com/download/P3fMvn http://replayfu.com/download/XPBxJt http://replayfu.com/download/DXFCJn all it takes is 1 guy droping from placements and ur at least silver ... | ||
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JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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milodon
Chile42 Posts
And @nod, yes, Im sure that`s what happened, a lucky placement... it was very unusual, anyway. The rest of the games I think are almost all of a similar level, and more representative of Bronze. | ||
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RyanRushia
United States2748 Posts
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
Game 1 - This Protoss is the classic guy who knows how basic PvT is supposed to work ,but keeps forgetting basic macro tasks. Gets 2 gates, a robo, expands, adds more gates and colossi and 3 forges. But there's massive gaps in unit production, especially probes, and he never uses the 3 forges or twilight council for anything. At 7 minutes there's so SCVs and 26 probes, both at 32 food. At 15 minutes its 107 food to 129, and 41 probes to 38 SCVs, which is also when the first and final attack happens. I suppose another basic game knowledge error is that he doesn't add any chargealots and overbuilds stalkers and sentries, which is why he struggles to afford colossi. But mostly it looks like multitasking fail. TvT game vs Virtue - This one does look odd. Fast factory that is idle for quite some time, then adds a tech lab which is also idle for some time, plus a fast CC that is also left idle. I guess it was a messed up siegetank expand? And he got supply blocked at 35. Both have 23 workers at 7:00. At 14:00 he's got 113 food of marinetankmedivac including 45 SCVs on 3 bases. He's not producing out of the factory and starport smoothly, probably cos they're not hotkeyed. He completely forgot stim and combat shields. Yet his biggest failing is probably not knowing how to handle his contain of their natural. But he's clearly outmacroing his opponent, yet its getting him nowhere, with over 10k more spent. Overall I'd say this game is a perfect counter to the "hurr durr just macro and A-move" argument. | ||
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