|
On March 22 2012 19:37 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 19:26 Lorch wrote:
Your rank doesn't indicate your skill, it doesn't tell how good you are, at the end of the day it doesn't mean shit. Your rank is highly correlated with your chance of beating someone else of a different rank. That's the entire point of the system. So yeah, it does mean something.
There's a loose correlation when it starts coming to higher leagues or huge gaps in ranking, but your rank is by no means your skill.
|
On March 23 2012 03:10 milodon wrote:
Not VERY often,but once in a while... most of them do probe rushes, or quit inmediatly if they not scout at close positions.
And @nod, yes, Im sure that`s what happened, a lucky placement... it was very unusual, anyway. The rest of the games I think are almost all of a similar level, and more representative of Bronze.
I watched a couple o f replays very fast
u seemed above plat level at the 7 minutes mark
all the three games after some point (10 minutes generally) u will stop getting production scv and will get full of minerals and lacking an army
most games dying or winning with 2-3k minerals in bank
Think that is only problem ...
edit: in all fairness if u switch to protoss and 4/7 gates all games i dont see u dont increasing 2 or 3 ranks ....
|
Being "stuck" in bronze is 100% a macro problem. There is no such thing as a certain match-up or cheese holding you back, this stuff doesn't exist in bronze at all. The amount of misconceptions regarding this league is astonishing.
I'm currently farming masterleague, starting from 200 point bronze. My main race is Zerg, but I expect 100% win ratio as random untill diamond, where people actually have more apm than they average base saturation. 90% of the games I've played below platinum are vs people who have close to zero understanding of the basic mechanics, who disconnects, win trades or goes afk. The last 10% are vs players who have some resemblance of an idea that works in theory but who lacks the ability to execute anything properly.
Strategy, multitasking or theoretical knowledge means absolutely nothing in bronze. I can go mass marine every single game regardless of what my opponent is doing and still win. I can take 5 bases before making a pool in ZvZ and still hold a 6/7/10/14 pool or any kind of all in my opponent might do. The different matchups don't matter either. All the races might as well be identical on that level, there is nothing strategical about anything that happens. Bronze players generally just do random nonsensical builds, like making random cannons or spines early game or halt their worker production for no reason. They have no concept of "the ideal game" or "optimized macro", they don't scout and if they do, they don't use the information at all. They have no goals, they just play. That's why they are bad, and will stay bad.
What amuses me in particular is how they 95% of the time will prefer a hidden expo to their natural, for reasons I don't fully grasp. They seem to think that this somehow puts them ahead, though having an expo usually hurts them more than doing any kind of 1base play.
To get past bronze and into "normal" games that can actually teach you how to play properly, all you need is a decent idea of what macro is. Those who begin to understand the basic macro mechanics and start practising them, will improve really fast and move out of bronze in no time. There is no excuse. There is no skill limit there. Imo the best advice for a bronze player that wants to improve is to spend his time in bronze focusing solely on his basic mechanics, getting used to optimized hotkey setups and efficient macro. While doing this he will eventually progress out of bronze and into games where he can actually learn from the interaction with his opponent and not just his own herpderp mistakes.
|
On March 23 2012 02:28 milodon wrote:
For anyone who is still wondering what is the current level in bronze, this are my last TEN replays (no selection, 5 games today and 5 yesterday). THIS is bronze. And yes, some of the battles can be entertaining if you put some Benny Hill music in the background.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who plays Yakety Sax as background for their games.
Also, the terrible isn't just in bronze. I played a guy a few days ago who was plat. He went FFE vs terran, went for the super standard 8 minute gateway, proceeded to try going 4 stargate carriers off of 2 bases without building any other units. I'll dig up the replay after work tonight.
|
Continuing the look at milodon's replays
TvZ against Tuma. He does a standard 14 gas 14 pool, then does an expand. Adding a bane nest AND a roach warren seems odd tho. And accumulates nearly 500 gas without ever starting ling speed. So either clueless or terrible macro. 27 drones to 21 SCVs at 7 minutes, 34 to 32 food. Also an odd thing he does is try to scout with changelings instead of just saccing an overseer. At 14:00 its 102 food to 81 in favour of zerg, and 42 drones to 35 SCVs. But he ends up winning by amassing a large broodlord+muta force entirely unopposed.
Btw for milodon, if you want a nice easy TvZ strat, try Halby's Mineral Drill. Pretty much guarantees you get 200 food of SCVs and marines by 14:00, which will roll over any Zerg who's not good with infestors and banes, and before they get many broodlords.
TvT against Nerfed. I think he took 2nd gas too early for him to also expand, even if he's doing 1-1-1. 24 workers to Bennett's 20, and 33 food to 24. Has pretty terrible problems with supply blocking, but does a great demonstration of using superior army production to bruteforce past small tank defenses. Bennett never gets his 2nd base up, and not surprisingly loses in the end.
|
On March 23 2012 03:38 Pharnax wrote:
Being "stuck" in bronze is 100% a macro problem. There is no such thing as a certain match-up or cheese holding you back, this stuff doesn't exist in bronze at all. The amount of misconceptions regarding this league is astonishing.
It's not a macro problem, it's not a scouting problem, it's playing-below-a-certain-skill-level problem (a skill level which gets constantly higher). A guy who was plat in 2010 probably wouldn't make it out of silver in 2012. Any generalizations about the level of play in bronze are inherently false. According to this handy chart the skill gap between a totally clueless noob and a top bronze player is larger than the skill gap between high bronze and low/mid diamond.
|
On March 23 2012 03:38 Pharnax wrote:
Being "stuck" in bronze is 100% a macro problem. There is no such thing as a certain match-up or cheese holding you back, this stuff doesn't exist in bronze at all. The amount of misconceptions regarding this league is astonishing.
I'm currently farming masterleague, starting from 200 point bronze. My main race is Zerg, but I expect 100% win ratio as random untill diamond, where people actually have more apm than they average base saturation. 90% of the games I've played below platinum are vs people who have close to zero understanding of the basic mechanics, who disconnects, win trades or goes afk. The last 10% are vs players who have some resemblance of an idea that works in theory but who lacks the ability to execute anything properly.
Strategy, multitasking or theoretical knowledge means absolutely nothing in bronze. I can go mass marine every single game regardless of what my opponent is doing and still win. I can take 5 bases before making a pool in ZvZ and still hold a 6/7/10/14 pool or any kind of all in my opponent might do. The different matchups don't matter either. All the races might as well be identical on that level, there is nothing strategical about anything that happens. Bronze players generally just do random nonsensical builds, like making random cannons or spines early game or halt their worker production for no reason. They have no concept of "the ideal game" or "optimized macro", they don't scout and if they do, they don't use the information at all. They have no goals, they just play. That's why they are bad, and will stay bad.
What amuses me in particular is how they 95% of the time will prefer a hidden expo to their natural, for reasons I don't fully grasp. They seem to think that this somehow puts them ahead, though having an expo usually hurts them more than doing any kind of 1base play.
To get past bronze and into "normal" games that can actually teach you how to play properly, all you need is a decent idea of what macro is. Those who begin to understand the basic macro mechanics and start practising them, will improve really fast and move out of bronze in no time. There is no excuse. There is no skill limit there. Imo the best advice for a bronze player that wants to improve is to spend his time in bronze focusing solely on his basic mechanics, getting used to optimized hotkey setups and efficient macro. While doing this he will eventually progress out of bronze and into games where he can actually learn from the interaction with his opponent and not just his own herpderp mistakes.
The modus operandi in bronze is the more you surprise your opponent the more chance of winning you have.. Same with cloaked units or cheesy units.
They like to think that they executed a "strategy" therefore they outsmarted their opponent.
EZPZ.. send workers patrol em ninja expansions, build a standard unit comp.. Out of bronze EZPZ.
To all those saying bronzies have high apm.. LOL.. yes they do if they spam right click. macro still lousy as ever
|
On March 23 2012 04:22 TacticalBadger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 03:38 Pharnax wrote:
Being "stuck" in bronze is 100% a macro problem. There is no such thing as a certain match-up or cheese holding you back, this stuff doesn't exist in bronze at all. The amount of misconceptions regarding this league is astonishing.
It's not a macro problem, it's not a scouting problem, it's playing-below-a-certain-skill-level problem (a skill level which gets constantly higher). A guy who was plat in 2010 probably wouldn't make it out of silver in 2012. Any generalizations about the level of play in bronze are inherently false. According to this handy chart the skill gap between a totally clueless noob and a top bronze player is larger than the skill gap between high bronze and low/mid diamond.
If u permabronze u r most likely nowhere near the MMR border.. dont kid yourself.
Your ladder point is a poor indication of ur MMR. That's what the noobs always quote when they say they high bronze.
Just cause you play a lot and lots of points <> you are close to silver MMR.
One should instead look at the opponent league as a better indicator of one's standing.
|
More milodon games
Roldash TvT. Ok this guy definitely doesn't know what he's doing. 2nd depot at like 15 or something, and not part of a walloff. No OC when rax is done. So he's got 17 SCVs to bennett's 15 at 7:00, and only 25 food to 20. And he builds a hidden expo plus a sensor tower to give it away, and goes mass reaper well into the midgame. Bizzare. And he didn't gg!
Emotang TvT(good lord there's a lot of Terran in bronze). Extremely poor macro from Emotang, has 1k minerals at 6:22. Still has a food lead at 33 to 25 tho, and 25 SCVs to 17. Randomly walks half a dozen marines into Bennett's bunker+tank line. Queues 5 hellions on a factory with no addon. Queues up all the junk upgrades from the engi bay. Didn't know about medivac drops. So mark one down for the clueless bucket!
|
On March 23 2012 04:11 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
Continuing the look at milodon's replays
TvZ against Tuma. He does a standard 14 gas 14 pool, then does an expand. Adding a bane nest AND a roach warren seems odd tho. And accumulates nearly 500 gas without ever starting ling speed. So either clueless or terrible macro. 27 drones to 21 SCVs at 7 minutes, 34 to 32 food. Also an odd thing he does is try to scout with changelings instead of just saccing an overseer. At 14:00 its 102 food to 81 in favour of zerg, and 42 drones to 35 SCVs. But he ends up winning by amassing a large broodlord+muta force entirely unopposed..
I remember that game... my TvZ sucks. I can never put early agression, the zerg expand freely while a try to turtle in three bases. If he goes muta-ling, i actually do better if he uses his mutas to harass (I usually over-defend). If he doesnt, and just tech to brood-lords while saving his mutas I usually loose; even when I scout in time the greater spire, I never have enough vikings to deal with his corruptors and mutas AND I mess a lot with Marine micro and my marines lots of the time fight only broodlings. OR, I over comit to anti-air and get rolled by banelings.
I remember the TvT vs Nerfed also. Those two games were very frustrating, even for my level I feel I played worse than usual.
|
On March 23 2012 04:40 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
More milodon games
Roldash TvT. Ok this guy definitely doesn't know what he's doing. 2nd depot at like 15 or something, and not part of a walloff. No OC when rax is done. So he's got 17 SCVs to bennett's 15 at 7:00, and only 25 food to 20. And he builds a hidden expo plus a sensor tower to give it away, and goes mass reaper well into the midgame. Bizzare. And he didn't gg!
Emotang TvT(good lord there's a lot of Terran in bronze). Extremely poor macro from Emotang, has 1k minerals at 6:22. Still has a food lead at 33 to 25 tho, and 25 SCVs to 17. Randomly walks half a dozen marines into Bennett's bunker+tank line. Queues 5 hellions on a factory with no addon. Queues up all the junk upgrades from the engi bay. Didn't know about medivac drops. So mark one down for the clueless bucket!
OMG this things sound even worse when somebody else describes it. Im seriously considering quitting this thing, Im too bad.
|
Wanwan TvT(again). Does a strange 3rax push, researching conc shells first and moves out while stim is just starting. Still, only Bennett's hero banshee stops him from dying to it. Has 23 SCVs to bennett's 22, 38 food to 33. But loses quite a few to the reaper. Sadly he totally forgot about workers after the push failed and he had to defend against the cloaked banshee, and loses much later as a result.
|
On March 23 2012 04:48 milodon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 04:11 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
Continuing the look at milodon's replays
TvZ against Tuma. He does a standard 14 gas 14 pool, then does an expand. Adding a bane nest AND a roach warren seems odd tho. And accumulates nearly 500 gas without ever starting ling speed. So either clueless or terrible macro. 27 drones to 21 SCVs at 7 minutes, 34 to 32 food. Also an odd thing he does is try to scout with changelings instead of just saccing an overseer. At 14:00 its 102 food to 81 in favour of zerg, and 42 drones to 35 SCVs. But he ends up winning by amassing a large broodlord+muta force entirely unopposed.. I remember that game... my TvZ sucks. I can never put early agression, the zerg expand freely while a try to turtle in three bases. If he goes muta-ling, i actually do better if he uses his mutas to harass (I usually over-defend). If he doesnt, and just tech to brood-lords while saving his mutas I usually loose; even when I scout in time the greater spire, I never have enough vikings to deal with his corruptors and mutas AND I mess a lot with Marine micro and my marines lots of the time fight only broodlings. OR, I over comit to anti-air and get rolled by banelings. I remember the TvT vs Nerfed also. Those two games were very frustrating, even for my level I feel I played worse than usual.
Yah. Well that's why I like the 200 food mass marine push at 14:00. Very unlikely that Zerg will have enough broodies to stop you by then, and the pressure is on him to control his banes and/or infestors to stop you, cos nothing else will stop 100+ angry convicts with automatic rifles.
Nerfed was probably one of the best Terrans of the lot so far. Your major problem was not getting your natural expo up when he got quite early, and your cloaked banshees didn't do enough damage to make up for it.
|
On March 23 2012 04:29 lazyitachi wrote:
If u permabronze u r most likely nowhere near the MMR border.. dont kid yourself.
Your ladder point is a poor indication of ur MMR. That's what the noobs always quote when they say they high bronze.
Just cause you play a lot and lots of points <> you are close to silver MMR.
One should instead look at the opponent league as a better indicator of one's standing.
Ladder points are capped at your current MMR. You can mass games all you want, it won't do you any good, unless you actually improve by playing that much. You need to have silver or near-silver level MMR to be in top bronze, otherwise your ladder score will just stall at some point. For example, our friend Gheed is at a measly 13th position despite having 415 wins (guess worker rushing doesn't get you out of bronze after all) and the division is topped by a guy who has 1/5th of his games and nearly twice his ladder points.
|
On March 23 2012 04:51 milodon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 04:40 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
More milodon games
Roldash TvT. Ok this guy definitely doesn't know what he's doing. 2nd depot at like 15 or something, and not part of a walloff. No OC when rax is done. So he's got 17 SCVs to bennett's 15 at 7:00, and only 25 food to 20. And he builds a hidden expo plus a sensor tower to give it away, and goes mass reaper well into the midgame. Bizzare. And he didn't gg!
Emotang TvT(good lord there's a lot of Terran in bronze). Extremely poor macro from Emotang, has 1k minerals at 6:22. Still has a food lead at 33 to 25 tho, and 25 SCVs to 17. Randomly walks half a dozen marines into Bennett's bunker+tank line. Queues 5 hellions on a factory with no addon. Queues up all the junk upgrades from the engi bay. Didn't know about medivac drops. So mark one down for the clueless bucket!
OMG this things sound even worse when somebody else describes it. Im seriously considering quitting this thing, Im too bad.
Well I certainly don't care what league people are in as long as they have fun there 
My personal opinion is that your reaper/banshee attacks are very hit and miss, sometimes they do ok, sometimes they die for nothing. Same goes for the marine drops.
While your marine/tank/viking play consistently delivers, by smashing superior forces as they approach. The only time it fails, is when your opponent just has waaaaaay more stuff than you and attacks before you get a critical mass of tanks, as Nerfed did.
|
KJS TvT(sigh...)
Does a 3rax build but takes 2gas so floats near 400 of it by 7:00. Still has 35 supply to Bennett's 27, and 22 workers to his 19. Tho in fairness Bennett has better tech and a 2nd OC floating to the natural. KJS pushes out and denies the expo, and contains it for a while, while getting his own expo up. Then keeps a solid 20-30 food lead, denies Bennett's third, and catches his army in transit and unsieged, wiping it out and ending the game. Again this guy looked pretty good compared to the rest, aside from the unneeded 2nd gas which would have let him expand sooner. Bennett's big mistake was letting himself get contained for too long and thus falling behind on econ, when he easily had enough marines to stomp KJS's army.
|
On March 23 2012 04:57 TacticalBadger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 04:29 lazyitachi wrote:
If u permabronze u r most likely nowhere near the MMR border.. dont kid yourself.
Your ladder point is a poor indication of ur MMR. That's what the noobs always quote when they say they high bronze.
Just cause you play a lot and lots of points <> you are close to silver MMR.
One should instead look at the opponent league as a better indicator of one's standing. For example, our friend Gheed is at a measly 13th position despite having 415 wins (guess worker rushing doesn't get you out of bronze after all)
No shit, really? The worst strategy conceivable doesn't work against anyone who isn't in the worst league? Man, you could have saved me a lot of writing if you had just PMed me a few months ago. It all makes sense now!
|
Phasen PvT(woohoo!)
Opens with a double gas steal plus pylon block which I've never seen before, then expands and puts cannons down?? Has 31 probes to 20 SCVs, and 37 food to 31 at 7:00. Spends about a minute scouting his opponent, establishing that the only place without mineral turrets is the ramp and natural, so he sends in 5 DTs and kills it. Sure he banks 4k resources during this, but oh well. He then transitions into building 6 forward pylons outside Bennett's natural ramp and putting down a hidden expo while reinforcing his army at his main. Sadly he loses his forward pylons, so Phasen of course transitions into the proxy triple robo + colossus den. Bennett does a nice doom drop in Phasen's main, where the Protoss' clever building placement funnels the stalkers and zealots into a killing zone for the marines and marauders. But while the base crumbles, Phasen's triple robos have begun colossus production...
Stay tuned for part two, after the break.
|
On March 23 2012 05:14 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
KJS TvT(sigh...)
Does a 3rax build but takes 2gas so floats near 400 of it by 7:00. Still has 35 supply to Bennett's 27, and 22 workers to his 19. Tho in fairness Bennett has better tech and a 2nd OC floating to the natural. KJS pushes out and denies the expo, and contains it for a while, while getting his own expo up. Then keeps a solid 20-30 food lead, denies Bennett's third, and catches his army in transit and unsieged, wiping it out and ending the game. Again this guy looked pretty good compared to the rest, aside from the unneeded 2nd gas which would have let him expand sooner. Bennett's big mistake was letting himself get contained for too long and thus falling behind on econ, when he easily had enough marines to stomp KJS's army.
Ok, Im going to keep with the sincerity, to let you all in into the secrets of a bronze mind: I never noticed that it was a contain (outside the natural). Really. For some reason I was sure he had turned back with his army; thats why he caught me on move comand.
For some time I only did one rax expand; I have some troubles especially against terran (I lost to tank pushes like the one Nerfed did), so Im trying to change it to a 1-1-1 (I only do it against terran). Im very sloopy with it, I try to harass first with only one reaper (mostly for scout) and then cloaked banshees. But, like you said... sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't... I have a very hard time macroing while Im trying to harass.
And reading your comments, it seems that I always miss SCVs really early; I think there isn`t a single time Im ahead in the worker count, is there? I guess Im not seeing the light at the end of the tunel, yet...
|
I stand by the idea that the best way to get out of bronze is learning to macro and getting faster. It will def help to get a build and start to understand it, but you wont learn timings, cuz other bronze are too bad to perform an optimized build perfectly. Get faster, learn to macro (if your zerg, DROOOOOONES) and scout. Scouting is cool, but not NEEDED. GOGO BRONZIES <3
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
