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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
http://drop.sc/23286 Two replays there, both are executing a 1-1-1 build. One has 24 SCVs, 14 marines, 3 tanks, 2 banshees and 1 hellion at 9:00. One has 23 SCVs,14 marines, 2 tanks, 2 vikings and 1 raven at 9:00. One was a sample replay pulled from this guide on stopping the 1-1-1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379 One was my encounter with a bronze leaguer in EU season 6. Which is which, and why? | ||
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MaV_gGSC
Canada1345 Posts
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lazyitachi
1043 Posts
On March 14 2012 22:36 Monkeyballs25 wrote: http://drop.sc/130077 http://drop.sc/23286 Two replays there, both are executing a 1-1-1 build. One has 24 SCVs, 14 marines, 3 tanks, 2 banshees and 1 hellion at 9:00. One has 23 SCVs,14 marines, 2 tanks, 2 vikings and 1 raven at 9:00. One was a sample replay pulled from this guide on stopping the 1-1-1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379 One was my encounter with a bronze leaguer in EU season 6. Which is which, and why? and yet sc2gear says zimson is gold.. sounds like a cool story. So your measure of skill is executing an all-in build that cuts scv production? I wonder why you even comment. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On March 14 2012 16:02 Lysenko wrote: Huh? A high school student who starts learning about calculus is getting better at math. I don't get your point. (In my example, it's not like the bronze league players are learning that some units can't hit air and then deliberately making those units vs. air anyway, so it is a meaningful improvement, even if a small one.) No, there's a difference between learning something exists and actually learning to do it. You said that bronze players have learned that banshees don't hit air units. That's learning about existence. There's a huge difference between that and actually learning to properly do a 2port banshee allin. I don't really see the need to respond to the Gheed stuff, since he's already personally responded and basically confirmed my points exactly. Oh yeah, who?? Everyone I have ever met in real life who has touched the game bought it in the first couple months. I have not met one person, not one single person, who started in the last year. (I do know a couple who took breaks and came back, so to some extent those folks may be coming in near the bottom.) Anyone who buys starcraft 2 is defined as "coming in" to the system. I'd look up the overall sales of starcraft 2, because I'm sure that it's sold more than a few thousand copies per month.  My sense is that bottom bronze is probably about the same. The active players in bronze who stand a good chance of promotion are certainly playing as well as silver players around the time of release. Meanwhile, silver, gold, platinum have kind of compressed in the middle -- I find that random fluctuation in my win rate has me oscillating between silver, gold, and platinum opponents, which tells me that high silver through low plat are a pretty narrow skill difference as measured by win likelihood (because of the rock/scissors/paper effect of complementary skills that came up earlier on this page.) That entire range are pretty much where low plat were after the introduction of master league, at least based on the macro you would see looking at old replays. Meanwhile, I have no personal basis to guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if diamond and up had stretched out like you suggest. I'm quite sure that diamond and up has stretched - there is so much influence on those leagues because of progaming. So your win rate is fluctuating your league placement, that's how the ladder system works. I can tell you from doing occasional coaching that silver and plat are absolutely light years apart in terms of game understanding. Plat players have an actual idea what they are doing, say a protoss player who understands colossus engagements in pvp or a zerg who understands mobility when going muta ling. Most silver players build marauders. And only marauders. I also challenge the assumption that if you play a lot, you're getting better. I fundamentally disagree with this - if you are not actually practicing the right things and consciously trying to improve, you will remain stagnant. I think it took me 6 months of chillin as top diamond before I broke master league, because I wasn't actually trying to get better. I was just sitting there trying the same thing over and over, and expecting different results. There's no way that 99% of bronze players actually know what to do in order to improve. I honestly think Gheed's (awesome) blog is the best evidence that I can give, because I'm not in bronze myself. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 15 2012 01:18 HyperionDreamer wrote: So your win rate is fluctuating your league placement, that's how the ladder system works. I can tell you from doing occasional coaching that silver and plat are absolutely light years apart in terms of game understanding. What I'm saying is that running into silver (when I lose six or seven games) and plat (when I win six or seven games) is a new thing, like since maybe season 5. It wasn't like that before. It's possible that it's a wide MMR range and fewer players in that range are playing so I'm just getting the best matches I can get, but it's more likely that they've tightened up the MMR ranges in those leagues. | ||
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MaV_gGSC
Canada1345 Posts
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 15 2012 01:18 HyperionDreamer wrote: You said that bronze players have learned that banshees don't hit air units. That's learning about existence. There's a huge difference between that and actually learning to properly do a 2port banshee allin. And I followed it up by saying they'd integrated it into their play. I don't really see the need to respond to the Gheed stuff, since he's already personally responded and basically confirmed my points exactly. Not really, only thing he confirmed is that he's top bronze right now with the worker rush thing. I already explained that that's a very strange, narrow window into what's going on in bronze, and won't tell you much, because it's catching people in a situation they haven't practiced at all. Even he said it may not make sense to make an argument based on his blogs. Anyone who buys starcraft 2 is defined as "coming in" to the system. I'd look up the overall sales of starcraft 2, because I'm sure that it's sold more than a few thousand copies per month. I seriously doubt that. It's not currently in the top 100 video games sold: http://www.vgchartz.com/charts/weekly.php If you care to pay for their "pro" account to look up actual numbers, go for it. Edit: It sold 57k units in 2011 in the US. Since it's dropping by about 80% a year, expect it to sell under 1k units per month this year. And many of those are probably second accounts. http://www.vgchartz.com/game/13820/starcraft-ii-wings-of-liberty/USA/ | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
(And if you're CombatEX you can cannon rush all the way to Grandmaster) What I do know is that I went from Bronze to gold on pure macro and things I learned from BW like storm drop, probe harass, etc. I didn't learn any legit builds, not even 4 gate, until I was gold. After my cyber core I always freestyled. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 14 2012 23:19 lazyitachi wrote: and yet sc2gear says zimson is gold.. sounds like a cool story. So your measure of skill is executing an all-in build that cuts scv production? I wonder why you even comment. Its a measure of smoothly executing a build order to the point where its barely distinguishable from a presumably much higher level player. Just because it cuts SCVs doesn't really change the difficulty of it one way or another. I can't think of a better way to benchmark someone's basic macro ability. He was in bronze when I played him, can't say how or why. Since I'm not in bronze myself, its only the up and comers I'm likely to see. Besides, I'd thought you'd be happy to find evidence of someone using solid build order execution to get out of bronze | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
On that note, I pretty much guarantee that I could get anyone over 12 years old out of bronze EASILY if they actually wanted to be. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 15 2012 04:49 Neo.NEt wrote: On that note, I pretty much guarantee that I could get anyone over 12 years old out of bronze EASILY if they actually wanted to be. That's a fairly weak guarantee, because as soon as someone fails to get out of bronze under your coaching, you can turn around and say "oh well, he must not have *wanted* to get out of bronze". Its an easy to use escape clause. No one could actually prove whether it was a lack of will or a lack of ability, even if the former is more likely. For all that though, I suspect the group of people who both got pro coaching and are still in bronze is quite small, if not non-existent. | ||
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MaV_gGSC
Canada1345 Posts
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lazyitachi
1043 Posts
On March 15 2012 02:53 Monkeyballs25 wrote: Its a measure of smoothly executing a build order to the point where its barely distinguishable from a presumably much higher level player. Just because it cuts SCVs doesn't really change the difficulty of it one way or another. I can't think of a better way to benchmark someone's basic macro ability. He was in bronze when I played him, can't say how or why. Since I'm not in bronze myself, its only the up and comers I'm likely to see. Besides, I'd thought you'd be happy to find evidence of someone using solid build order execution to get out of bronze It only takes 60 real life apm sitting in base literally staring at his army to get out of bronze into gold. Thus if this is all it takes then I don't expect permabronze to be any good at all. Which shows that if such a simple execution is all it takes then they are doing something wrong to still be in bronze. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On March 15 2012 10:06 lazyitachi wrote: It only takes 60 real life apm sitting in base literally staring at his army to get out of bronze into gold. Thus if this is all it takes then I don't expect permabronze to be any good at all. Which shows that if such a simple execution is all it takes then they are doing something wrong to still be in bronze. This isn't completely true. When I was permabronze it was more MMR-related than me being bad, which is why I stayed in silver for a grand total of 72 hours before promotion. When I started SC2 i didn't play practice matches so my placements were horribad (although I did win 2 because other people are retarded) and it took me a while to get my MMR back to acceptable levels. | ||
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1st_Panzer_Div.
United States621 Posts
But good for you for having fun, it's a video game, it really is okay to have fun playing and not obssess about improving/jumping leagues. In fact that's probably normal and the obsession with improvement is a bit odd. | ||
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RusHXceL
United States1004 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + jk | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On March 15 2012 04:49 Neo.NEt wrote: Honestly I stopped reading after you starting talking about "accepting the fact that you are a bronze level player". Personally I hate being bad at anything and I'll work as hard as necessary to be good at anything, no matter what it is. On that note, I pretty much guarantee that I could get anyone over 12 years old out of bronze EASILY if they actually wanted to be. Theres a 12 year old masters player who streams with a webcam so u know its legit xD http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320941 | ||
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Xcobidoo
Sweden1871 Posts
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habeck
1120 Posts
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eSportLive
United States10 Posts
If bronze kids don't like being in bronze, they should visit http://www.esbn.tv and get some quality coaching for free. Just saying... | ||
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