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On March 14 2012 15:36 freakhill wrote:
My point is that this guy, diamond at the time, wouldn't reach silver nowadays. He would be bronze. Btw your previous argument made no sens whatsoever.
No he wouldn't.
They play awful, but they partly have to because its on Steppes of War. Also they build workers, don't get supply blocked too much and they don't have 2k minerals after 6 minutes and they know basic safe openings which don't die to the most basic cheese. Means they are at least silver/gold, even if they play exactly like they did in the replay. They are just trying their best to react to the opponent on Steppes of War, its actually a pretty basic game from the first season if you're not a great but a solid player.
You probably don't remember how it felt to play on maps like Steppes of War or Incineration Zone without all the patch changes that we have nowadays, in days when barracks could be built before supply depot and reaper speed without factory, with faster bunker building time and faster zealot building time.
You just had to watch out for different things. Doesn't mean that the game was easier, it was just different. And these guys could still win against most bronze players just because they have more stuff, even if they build the wrong stuff at the wrong time.
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I'm a bronze level player that is trying to get better. I understand the game, the mechanics, and I have good macro and decent micro. What I think players in bronze have a problem with is how to execute a build, meaning, when to apply pressure or when to bunker down and rebuild among other things. I'll be honest, I struggle with timings. I got my timings down up until I get my OC (terran player, doy). After that it ain't bad but far from perfect. Also I think me and my bronze homies need to learn what the meta game is all about.
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On March 14 2012 18:19 Paint4blood wrote:
I'm a bronze level player that is trying to get better. I understand the game, the mechanics, and I have good macro and decent micro. What I think players in bronze have a problem with is how to execute a build, meaning, when to apply pressure or when to bunker down and rebuild among other things. I'll be honest, I struggle with timings. I got my timings down up until I get my OC (terran player, doy). After that it ain't bad but far from perfect. Also I think me and my bronze homies need to learn what the meta game is all about.
I wouldn't focus too much on the strategy aspect. If you understand the game and have a decent grasp on which unit counters other units and what each unit does, how the tech paths look etc. you have enough knowledge to get out of bronze. Knowing good unit compositions and trying to mimic the pros is nice, but not even necessary really. There aren't bad units in SC2.
Metagame is NONEXISTANT in bronze. It just doesn't exist, your opponents can do every weird shit from fun smurf planetary fortress rushing to mass hydra only builds. There is no metagame, its just the game, and bronze players are pretty bad at playing it. There's no other way to say it.
Now you need the mechanics. You can't have good macro in bronze. It is just not possible, don't think that you have "good macro". I'm mid masters, playing against GM players and I think my macro is bad. You are correct about learning timings of your own build, don't think too strict and don't be too harsh with yourself, just be aware of your mistakes and say to yourself that you will make it better in the next game. Don't say to yourself that you are good at something, because that means that you will neglect it in your analysis. Be proud of something you have accomplished, because you have every reason to do so, Starcraft is a hard game. But always see it as a work in progress, don't be too critical about it but just be aware of whats possible theoretically and what you did in reality.
Another huge part of mechanics is being able to click with precision and to know all the hotkeys. I think thats the most crucial part if you want to get to platinum and diamond in no time. If you are comfortable with clicking each unit, if you can direct them where they should go very fast, if you can click on workers and build 4 buildings without needing 10 seconds to do it and without workers scattering everywhere you will sprint out of bronze. I think there was a day9 daily in which viewers sent replays and day9 watched them from their PoV and talked about what the camera should focus on, what you should focus on to improve to get better mechanics etc.. Every bronze player should watch it and just focus solely on improving in that regard (if they want to improve and not be stuck in bronze). Its the most important thing ever on every skill level really.
Learning how to execute a build is a nice way to learn the game, because it shows you whats possible in a well executed build and what you would have in one of your average bronze games. Just take a random build that has a timing attack at 9-10 minutes, compare the unit count a pro has and now try to mimic exactly what he was doing until you get the exact same unit count. I don't think its a necessary part of becoming better though, I never learned any BOs up to this day and I only do what I think is reasonable. If you reach a certain point its nice to just spy good players in tournaments and copy their timings (because usually they have a lot of thought and practice in their timings) to see how it works out. I don't know. It can be helpful to learn builds I guess and its a good measurement of how good you are (if you can keep up macroing until minute 9-10 and have the same amount of units as a pro player at that point you are doing fairly well I guess, usually you should get out of bronze with such a timing attack).
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On March 14 2012 18:45 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 18:19 Paint4blood wrote:
I'm a bronze level player that is trying to get better. I understand the game, the mechanics, and I have good macro and decent micro. What I think players in bronze have a problem with is how to execute a build, meaning, when to apply pressure or when to bunker down and rebuild among other things. I'll be honest, I struggle with timings. I got my timings down up until I get my OC (terran player, doy). After that it ain't bad but far from perfect. Also I think me and my bronze homies need to learn what the meta game is all about. I wouldn't focus too much on the strategy aspect. If you understand the game and have a decent grasp on which unit counters other units and what each unit does, how the tech paths look etc. you have enough knowledge to get out of bronze. Knowing good unit compositions and trying to mimic the pros is nice, but not even necessary really. There aren't bad units in SC2. Metagame is NONEXISTANT in bronze. It just doesn't exist, your opponents can do every weird shit from fun smurf planetary fortress rushing to mass hydra only builds. There is no metagame, its just the game, and bronze players are pretty bad at playing it. There's no other way to say it. Now you need the mechanics. You can't have good macro in bronze. It is just not possible, don't think that you have "good macro". I'm mid masters, playing against GM players and I think my macro is bad. You are correct about learning timings of your own build, don't think too strict and don't be too harsh with yourself, just be aware of your mistakes and say to yourself that you will make it better in the next game. Don't say to yourself that you are good at something, because that means that you will neglect it in your analysis. Be proud of something you have accomplished, because you have every reason to do so, Starcraft is a hard game. But always see it as a work in progress, don't be too critical about it but just be aware of whats possible theoretically and what you did in reality. Another huge part of mechanics is being able to click with precision and to know all the hotkeys. I think thats the most crucial part if you want to get to platinum and diamond in no time. If you are comfortable with clicking each unit, if you can direct them where they should go very fast, if you can click on workers and build 4 buildings without needing 10 seconds to do it and without workers scattering everywhere you will sprint out of bronze. I think there was a day9 daily in which viewers sent replays and day9 watched them from their PoV and talked about what the camera should focus on, what you should focus on to improve to get better mechanics etc.. Every bronze player should watch it and just focus solely on improving in that regard (if they want to improve and not be stuck in bronze). Its the most important thing ever on every skill level really. Learning how to execute a build is a nice way to learn the game, because it shows you whats possible in a well executed build and what you would have in one of your average bronze games. Just take a random build that has a timing attack at 9-10 minutes, compare the unit count a pro has and now try to mimic exactly what he was doing until you get the exact same unit count. I don't think its a necessary part of becoming better though, I never learned any BOs up to this day and I only do what I think is reasonable. If you reach a certain point its nice to just spy good players in tournaments and copy their timings (because usually they have a lot of thought and practice in their timings) to see how it works out. I don't know. It can be helpful to learn builds I guess and its a good measurement of how good you are (if you can keep up macroing until minute 9-10 and have the same amount of units as a pro player at that point you are doing fairly well I guess, usually you should get out of bronze with such a timing attack).
What I meant by "I am good" I meant I am good for the league I'm in. Of course I don't think I'm any where near even platinum league good. People say the best way to get better is to play people who are better than you, but I find this really difficult when anyone above bronze won't play against a bronzie. If I'm winning 90% of my matches (which I am atm) in my current league then how am I suppose to get better while I wait to get out of bronze? Then go to silver or gold and find out that I suck and possibly go back to bronze.
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On March 14 2012 19:10 Paint4blood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 18:45 Bommes wrote:On March 14 2012 18:19 Paint4blood wrote:
I'm a bronze level player that is trying to get better. I understand the game, the mechanics, and I have good macro and decent micro. What I think players in bronze have a problem with is how to execute a build, meaning, when to apply pressure or when to bunker down and rebuild among other things. I'll be honest, I struggle with timings. I got my timings down up until I get my OC (terran player, doy). After that it ain't bad but far from perfect. Also I think me and my bronze homies need to learn what the meta game is all about. I wouldn't focus too much on the strategy aspect. If you understand the game and have a decent grasp on which unit counters other units and what each unit does, how the tech paths look etc. you have enough knowledge to get out of bronze. Knowing good unit compositions and trying to mimic the pros is nice, but not even necessary really. There aren't bad units in SC2. Metagame is NONEXISTANT in bronze. It just doesn't exist, your opponents can do every weird shit from fun smurf planetary fortress rushing to mass hydra only builds. There is no metagame, its just the game, and bronze players are pretty bad at playing it. There's no other way to say it. Now you need the mechanics. You can't have good macro in bronze. It is just not possible, don't think that you have "good macro". I'm mid masters, playing against GM players and I think my macro is bad. You are correct about learning timings of your own build, don't think too strict and don't be too harsh with yourself, just be aware of your mistakes and say to yourself that you will make it better in the next game. Don't say to yourself that you are good at something, because that means that you will neglect it in your analysis. Be proud of something you have accomplished, because you have every reason to do so, Starcraft is a hard game. But always see it as a work in progress, don't be too critical about it but just be aware of whats possible theoretically and what you did in reality. Another huge part of mechanics is being able to click with precision and to know all the hotkeys. I think thats the most crucial part if you want to get to platinum and diamond in no time. If you are comfortable with clicking each unit, if you can direct them where they should go very fast, if you can click on workers and build 4 buildings without needing 10 seconds to do it and without workers scattering everywhere you will sprint out of bronze. I think there was a day9 daily in which viewers sent replays and day9 watched them from their PoV and talked about what the camera should focus on, what you should focus on to improve to get better mechanics etc.. Every bronze player should watch it and just focus solely on improving in that regard (if they want to improve and not be stuck in bronze). Its the most important thing ever on every skill level really. Learning how to execute a build is a nice way to learn the game, because it shows you whats possible in a well executed build and what you would have in one of your average bronze games. Just take a random build that has a timing attack at 9-10 minutes, compare the unit count a pro has and now try to mimic exactly what he was doing until you get the exact same unit count. I don't think its a necessary part of becoming better though, I never learned any BOs up to this day and I only do what I think is reasonable. If you reach a certain point its nice to just spy good players in tournaments and copy their timings (because usually they have a lot of thought and practice in their timings) to see how it works out. I don't know. It can be helpful to learn builds I guess and its a good measurement of how good you are (if you can keep up macroing until minute 9-10 and have the same amount of units as a pro player at that point you are doing fairly well I guess, usually you should get out of bronze with such a timing attack). What I meant by "I am good" I meant I am good for the league I'm in. Of course I don't think I'm any where near even platinum league good. People say the best way to get better is to play people who are better than you, but I find this really difficult when anyone above bronze won't play against a bronzie. If I'm winning 90% of my matches (which I am atm) in my current league then how am I suppose to get better while I wait to get out of bronze? Then go to silver or gold and find out that I suck and possibly go back to bronze.
If you win 90% of your games you are fine and you should soon play against silver/gold level players and move on even further 
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On March 14 2012 19:10 Paint4blood wrote:
People say the best way to get better is to play people who are better than you, but I find this really difficult when anyone above bronze won't play against a bronzie.
I'm in gold at the moment, you can feel free to add me and hit me up for games. My ID is Lysenko.545.
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I do play against silver every now and then and have only lost once out of about the little over a hand full of times I've played against a silver player. Also, I have played against a gold and barely lost to him. We both base traded but I was able to save one of my orbitals and float it behind some rocks. He only had a few DT's and one archon and I lost because I didn't put detection at the rocks and eventually ran out of scans.
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I was actually somewhat sympathetic for Bronze players before, but I was up early this morning trying to find distractions from studying for my comps and I read through all of Gheed's blog.
If you're in Bronze, you have no idea what the hell you're doing.
Until you start emulating people who do, as opposed to lying to yourself, you'll be stuck there. Forever.
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On March 14 2012 19:21 Paint4blood wrote:
Also, I have played against a gold and barely lost to him.
That's irrelevant, a gold to be paired with bronze is not gold in the first place. He's either tanking his mmr or just bad.
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On March 14 2012 18:19 Paint4blood wrote:
I'm a bronze level player that is trying to get better. I understand the game, the mechanics, and I have good macro and decent micro. What I think players in bronze have a problem with is how to execute a build, meaning, when to apply pressure or when to bunker down and rebuild among other things. I'll be honest, I struggle with timings. I got my timings down up until I get my OC (terran player, doy). After that it ain't bad but far from perfect. Also I think me and my bronze homies need to learn what the meta game is all about.
really i dont want to insult you or be mean. but when you are in bronze and you say you have good macro and micro you are wrong. if you have good macro, just macro your way to 200/200 and attack. IF you have good macro you will be in gold or platinum quick. otherwise your macro is not good
i think that bronze- gold players are just more focused on fun then on winning. as soon as you want to win no matter what you work harder on your flaws and that automatically brings you into plat or more. i think everyone can play good its just the mindset and bit of talent.
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On March 14 2012 19:52 LightSpectra wrote:
If you're in Bronze, you have no idea what the hell you're doing.
Look at the two replays posted for comments on the last page by the bronze player. The play has a lot of problems and a ton of opportunity for improvement but it's not the kind of unsalvageable mess you'd imagine from Gheed's blog. Remember he sees people only at their worst moment, dealing with a situation that requires an instant response that they rarely see.
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I think it's funny all the Silver/Gold players saying "Oh ya, it's alot different now. The skill level is much better in these leagues than before". Sure, but he skill level has improved across all leagues. The difference between a Masters level player and a Bronze level player is probably even larger now than it was in the first seasons.
One of the big things I think holding people back is that kind of delusion that they "know the game" and are playing well, but just are stuck in their league. I have several friends like this. They memorize tons of builds (more than me, TBH), they repeat stuff they hear in casts, but they just don't really put that determined mindset into their play.
I think it's really more important to just keep hitting that "Find Match" button and speeding through the replays of the games you lost to find what went wrong.
I sometimes hop on my friend's accounts to check it out, and it's pretty obvious the difference (I'm mid-masters Zerg). You can pick apart the play at that level because it's very easy to see what the players are trying to do and what they're weak at. Usually they try and follow a strict build (don't deviate according to game conditions) and if you throw anything at them that is not standard, they fall apart.
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On March 14 2012 19:10 Paint4blood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 18:45 Bommes wrote:On March 14 2012 18:19 Paint4blood wrote:
I'm a bronze level player that is trying to get better. I understand the game, the mechanics, and I have good macro and decent micro. What I think players in bronze have a problem with is how to execute a build, meaning, when to apply pressure or when to bunker down and rebuild among other things. I'll be honest, I struggle with timings. I got my timings down up until I get my OC (terran player, doy). After that it ain't bad but far from perfect. Also I think me and my bronze homies need to learn what the meta game is all about. I wouldn't focus too much on the strategy aspect. If you understand the game and have a decent grasp on which unit counters other units and what each unit does, how the tech paths look etc. you have enough knowledge to get out of bronze. Knowing good unit compositions and trying to mimic the pros is nice, but not even necessary really. There aren't bad units in SC2. Metagame is NONEXISTANT in bronze. It just doesn't exist, your opponents can do every weird shit from fun smurf planetary fortress rushing to mass hydra only builds. There is no metagame, its just the game, and bronze players are pretty bad at playing it. There's no other way to say it. Now you need the mechanics. You can't have good macro in bronze. It is just not possible, don't think that you have "good macro". I'm mid masters, playing against GM players and I think my macro is bad. You are correct about learning timings of your own build, don't think too strict and don't be too harsh with yourself, just be aware of your mistakes and say to yourself that you will make it better in the next game. Don't say to yourself that you are good at something, because that means that you will neglect it in your analysis. Be proud of something you have accomplished, because you have every reason to do so, Starcraft is a hard game. But always see it as a work in progress, don't be too critical about it but just be aware of whats possible theoretically and what you did in reality. Another huge part of mechanics is being able to click with precision and to know all the hotkeys. I think thats the most crucial part if you want to get to platinum and diamond in no time. If you are comfortable with clicking each unit, if you can direct them where they should go very fast, if you can click on workers and build 4 buildings without needing 10 seconds to do it and without workers scattering everywhere you will sprint out of bronze. I think there was a day9 daily in which viewers sent replays and day9 watched them from their PoV and talked about what the camera should focus on, what you should focus on to improve to get better mechanics etc.. Every bronze player should watch it and just focus solely on improving in that regard (if they want to improve and not be stuck in bronze). Its the most important thing ever on every skill level really. Learning how to execute a build is a nice way to learn the game, because it shows you whats possible in a well executed build and what you would have in one of your average bronze games. Just take a random build that has a timing attack at 9-10 minutes, compare the unit count a pro has and now try to mimic exactly what he was doing until you get the exact same unit count. I don't think its a necessary part of becoming better though, I never learned any BOs up to this day and I only do what I think is reasonable. If you reach a certain point its nice to just spy good players in tournaments and copy their timings (because usually they have a lot of thought and practice in their timings) to see how it works out. I don't know. It can be helpful to learn builds I guess and its a good measurement of how good you are (if you can keep up macroing until minute 9-10 and have the same amount of units as a pro player at that point you are doing fairly well I guess, usually you should get out of bronze with such a timing attack). What I meant by "I am good" I meant I am good for the league I'm in. Of course I don't think I'm any where near even platinum league good. People say the best way to get better is to play people who are better than you, but I find this really difficult when anyone above bronze won't play against a bronzie. If I'm winning 90% of my matches (which I am atm) in my current league then how am I suppose to get better while I wait to get out of bronze? Then go to silver or gold and find out that I suck and possibly go back to bronze.
Play 10 games a day for a week. If you still have 90% win ratio and haven't been promoted, mail Blizzard because there's obviously something wrong with the system unless your MMR is just... beyond saving.
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@ Paint4Blood
Replay Replay Replay. Without it it is impossible to understand at what level you mean "I have good macro and decent micro."
I have played since beta and I can honestly tell you I have quite subpar macro and now that I'm linking from asia to NA serv I can't even talk about micro. Please provide a replay so people can objectify your claims.
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On March 14 2012 20:13 muzzy wrote:
I think it's funny all the Silver/Gold players saying "Oh ya, it's alot different now. The skill level is much better in these leagues than before". Sure, but he skill level has improved across all leagues. The difference between a Masters level player and a Bronze level player is probably even larger now than it was in the first seasons.
I'm probably one of those gold people you're referring to, and I say of course you're right, that's why those perma-bronze people are still bronze. If you merely keep up with your peers you won't get promoted.
I suspect, based on the nature of the mistakes I've seen people make over the seasons and my experiences with the matchmaking system, that plat has probably stayed about the same while silver through gold have compressed below it and diamond and up have spread out. in fifteen games I can go from playing silver players to plat and back again and they're all reasonably even matchups (though my odds are maybe 60/40 vs silver and 40/60 vs plat.). That certainly wasn't the case a few seasons ago at the same spot on the ladder.
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Most didn't seem to think it possible that someone play 2+ hours a day, watch Day9, follow the pro scene, review my own games, etc. and remain in bronze league; why, I don't know.
Same, although I am a few leagues higher up.
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I, myself, am a Top 20 Dia and I consider myself as a pretty bad player with bad micro and bad macro..(I often play against low masters and my win rate against them is somewhat 50% but i have absolutely no chance of winning when i meet high-mid-masters)
I often play 1v1 custom games and often meet bronze-gold players as well. The skill level of bronze-gold has improved significantly, but other leagues have improved as well. The biggest problems with bronze-gold players are game knowledge, execution, mechanics...well everything. And I believe EVERYONE is capable of reaching platinum with proper training and if they go serious about it.
A friend of mine, who started in silver league (he is very bad at gaming), is now in platinum enjoying his games. He played less than 10 hours a week but we met up every week and I gave him some advice how to play the game. He said he would have stayed in silver forever if I hadnt helped him.
My point is, some players can reach masters on their own (I think top dia is my limit without the help of better players) while others need some help to get further. For instance, I cheesed him multiple times in many different ways and told him how to block certain types of cheeses, how to block a 4gate rush, how to punish players not walling off as a zerg, what to do when you dont have detection and a DT or a cloaked banshee is in your base, etc.
Nobody is a forever bronze or silver unless you are physically or mentally disabled, you just need the proper guide to play the game better :D
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To be honest, the worse you consider yourself but you keep practicing the more you will improve.
If you think your macro is way better than it should be for your league, chances are that you will not be improving your macro during your games. In bronze "good macro" for bronze is still really really bad and you could improve it in a hundred ways.
Also good macro in bronze might just be you taking risks without understanding anything. Could be the situation where you say "i always win macro games" but you go 16 hatch 17 pool and blindly make drones (my plat friend does this... curse him). This is a false sense of thinking your macro is good. Real good macro is doing a lot with what you have not taking dumb risks.
Pick out mistakes in your play, if you cannot see mistakes you will not get better. Compare yourself to players better than you and see WHY they are better, this is how you will improve.
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On March 14 2012 20:07 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 19:52 LightSpectra wrote:
If you're in Bronze, you have no idea what the hell you're doing. Look at the two replays posted for comments on the last page by the bronze player. The play has a lot of problems and a ton of opportunity for improvement but it's not the kind of unsalvageable mess you'd imagine from Gheed's blog. Remember he sees people only at their worst moment, dealing with a situation that requires an instant response that they rarely see.
Just echoing this. I have played 450 games in silver and gold EU. I have seen ONE worker rush. And technically that's a lie, because the guy quit before I got to see his workers, as he'd scouted me last out of three spawn positions. If I saw 6 workers streaming into my base at whatever the usual time is, I might well be thrown off enough to lose the game. And I'd probably never ever see it again.
Gheed's little exercise definitely proves the average bad player will lose to a worker rush.
You could probably extrapolate from that that bronze players don't have fast reactions to unexpected situations. I'd definitely support this notion, it explains a massive amount of their difficulties.
You can't extrapolate from this that "bronze players have no idea what they're doing", because they don't instantly recognise or know the response to an absurdly rare strat.
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I'm back!
Ok, so fo those that didnt see my post a few pages back i'm completly new, even to rts.
So had an hour for some 1vs1 last night, and since i had read that macro is good way to learn I had checked out Taerix guide. As some might remember i hadnt won a game before.
Following the start build was both easier and harder then i thought. Before i used to queue units to buy extra time, but since i need to elarn i never do now, even if i notice I'm freaking out.
So first game.....Ok, i fucked up badly. Completly messed up, even tho i had written down on a piece of paper the start of it. And got wiped out by stalkers.
Well, I knew i had screwed up, and pretty much with what, so BACK ON THE HORSE!
Next game. Oh zerg. This will be fun....well, not, he was lovering his mmr.
Next game. O....well, exactly the same as above.
Dammit, will i ever get any training?
Yes, yes i did.
So its terran vs terrann in teh 4th game. Since I wont say anything bad about him, and I really enjoyed the game, I will use his name. His name was YANOZ.
I managed to follow the build plan decently up to his first poke, where I missed out soem builds and stuff. But not anythign major.
Problems arose when I was on 3rd base had about 6-7 barracks, and no queing. I was starting to freak out. Not building enough supply depots, missing building new troops when I sent troops forward or exanding to the 4th and so on, and see that supply go up...
Anyway, I was focusing on marines and marauders, as the idea of it was, but YANOZ made tanks and air units. So I had to get some defense up, and built 3 starports and soem hellions.
I decided to attack. if elt that the more i drag it out at that point the more i will screw up.
I get to his base, wipes out everything except his CC that he lifts and flies off with. At the same time he has attacked my base and I tries to get my troops back to save what i can. It doesnt work. Luckily, my 5th base was a bit off, so he had some travel time to get there. I only had like 10 marines there and some workers, so I knew I was lost.
However, what do i see? I have 2 vikings that ive missed to get home from his base, and i knew in which direction his base had went so I finds it. Can swear it cant have been more then a few secs before iw as gonan be wiped out. But thye managed to get it down and I won.
Game took about 35 min, so was imo good training. Had chance to train at building lots of stuf at the same time, and was overall a pleasant experience.
Also, chatted some with YANOZ after and he had also had a good time.
However, the statistics after had 1 very abd thing. AVerage unspent supplies:....5280
I keep hearing about ppl getting shit in and after games from other players. I might ahve been jsut lucky, but never had anything like it. MIght be that in bronze people dont take things as deadly serious at higher ladders. Or that most have a casual approach to it.
Oh, and got my 3win hot streak achivment since the 2 before had left^^
Anyway, just wanted to share a pleasant experience
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EPT
