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On March 02 2012 18:27 HavocGG wrote:
The korean chart's never been very balanced mainly due to how low the amount of games played is compared to international, keep that in mind guys.
Korean : 363 games
International : 2208 games
Good point, wanted to write the same, yet the international charts are almost PERFECT(well at least as good as it can get). Really like it  .
Also, ZvT is NOT broken after the nerf of ghosts, P is NOT imba anywhere now(though they are doing pretty ok now for a change.) If some months go by with similar balanced stats - who needs HotS?(jk  )
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It's time they fix protoss. I don't really care what they do but they just need the race to be harder to play at not pro levels or nerf them again so it balances it out. It's just so easy to max on 3 bases and your opponent, be it T or Z has to make something happen. There is a reason protoss is the most played race in every league on every server.
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This thread always irks me.
No matter how the graph looks it gives someone an excuse to cry imba!
International lately has been looking fairly okay. Protoss is ahead of Terran for one month in overall win/loss and 80% of the posts are whining. Terran was the top of korea and international for one year and these same people said learn to play.
Just go play and have some fun.
By the way, the korean one means next to nothing. One player playing well or poorly makes a huge difference in the small sample size.
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On March 02 2012 19:39 Recognizable wrote:
It's time they fix protoss. I don't really care what they do but they just need the race to be harder to play at not pro levels or nerf them again so it balances it out. It's just so easy to max on 3 bases and your opponent, be it T or Z has to make something happen. There is a reason protoss is the most played race in every league on every server.
It is true that Protoss requires much less effort to play but the main issue is that creative play gets punished. Interesting strats like strategies like colossus/storm/sentry drop are for many people not an option anymore since turtling requires no skill at all.
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Nice job. There's one error though: the rightmost graph of the individual matchups says "ZvP", yet the bars are ordered PvZ. You want to change that. For the rest: thanks for taking your time again
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On March 02 2012 19:43 JonnyLaw wrote:
This thread always irks me.
No matter how the graph looks it gives someone an excuse to cry imba!
International lately has been looking fairly okay. Protoss is ahead of Terran for one month in overall win/loss and 80% of the posts are whining. Terran was the top of korea and international for one year and these same people said learn to play.
Just go play and have some fun.
By the way, the korean one means next to nothing. One player playing well or poorly makes a huge difference in the small sample size.
QFT. Terrans are very sensitive nowadays.
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Protoss dominating Korea.
Interesting.
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Most balanced since release if I'm not wrong. I'm totally unsurprised by PvZ winrates equalizing so dramatically with the discovery and dissemination of the 1/1 triple immortal prism push. Protoss just can't play a 3 base game vs zerg and win. There's such a huge variety of 2 base pushes you can do now that are still exceptionally strong when scouted there's pretty much no reason to ever face the nightmare of broodlord+infestor in pvz now.
PvZ overall has been sickeningly volatile, even with no major balance patches affecting the mu.
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Protoss is by far the best race now, that should be common knowledge at this point. What seems strange is how Zergs have dropped so much in 1 month, I noticed all the new zergs got murdered in Code A but I didnt realize it was this extreme for no reason basically.
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On March 02 2012 19:28 fiveohfive wrote:
So does anyone still want to argue that Protoss isn't a little too powerful in the T v P MU now? Oh, lets give it few more months first I guess, just to make sure Protoss has nothing to argue about.
EDIT: Wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago David Kim said the T v P MU was fine? Hmmmmmmmmmm..........
Keke, loving this.
Terran heavily favored for nine months straight? Protoss are just whining.
Protoss has positive winrate for two months, for once? Protoss OP.
I find it really hard to take this attitude seriously. Apart from the snipe change, nothing was patched in PvT since early November. Are you saying that Protoss has suddenly become more and more OP, even though there weren't any patch changes between november and a week ago?
I say give this some time. For the three months that Protoss has had a positive PvT rate --in the graph--, there are actually only two months where the winrate is positive. If you look at the bars, you'll see the data for January 2012 once again show the matchup in favor of Terran by 56%. Hardly reason to call OP on anything.
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On March 02 2012 19:44 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 19:39 Recognizable wrote:
It's time they fix protoss. I don't really care what they do but they just need the race to be harder to play at not pro levels or nerf them again so it balances it out. It's just so easy to max on 3 bases and your opponent, be it T or Z has to make something happen. There is a reason protoss is the most played race in every league on every server. It is true that Protoss requires much less effort to play but the main issue is that creative play gets punished. Interesting strats like strategies like colossus/storm/sentry drop are for many people not an option anymore since turtling requires no skill at all.
That's exactly my point.
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You can never draw anything away definitively from these graphs...It's all speculation.
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Keke, loving this.
Terran heavily favored for nine months straight? Protoss are just whining.
Protoss has positive winrate for two months, for once? Protoss OP.
I find it really hard to take this attitude seriously. Apart from the snipe change, nothing was patched in PvT since early November. Are you saying that Protoss has suddenly become more and more OP, even though there weren't any patch changes between november and a week ago?
I say give this some time. For the three months that Protoss has had a positive PvT rate --in the graph--, there are actually only two months where the winrate is positive. If you look at the bars, you'll see the data for January 2012 once again show the matchup in favor of Terran by 56%. Hardly reason to call OP on anything.
I think the problem is that every terran on ladder is getting raped. Whilst this wasn't true when protoss was getting stomped on the pro levels. Protoss always has been easier to play sub GM so even if terran was OP it balanced it out with protoss just being easier to play. But now that TvP seems balanced at a pro level, all the terrans on ladder are getting destroyed.
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No surprise at all in the PvT win rate favoring Protoss, I sincerely hope the recent trend in patches from Blizzard is reversed if they are ever able to realise that they've gone too far.
Likewise I think the international ZvT win rates again make everyone question why snipe got changed. Blizzard had almost actually achieved a near perfect 50/50 match up in TvZ and then they make a change which I am 100% sure will show the different once TLPD March gets released.
Just as a general point on TLPD Korea that I think people should consider. If you think about the number of top, top, top tier Terrans there are and the number of decent Zergs then that is why the match up looks so bad. If there were more good Zergs other than DRG, NesTea, Leenock and Curious then it wouldn't look so bad as for each of them I can name five Terrans of similar or better skill level. Given how small the sample size is I'd even just state that CoCa competing in no tournaments has been detrimental (1400 TvZ's in 12 months, ~100 TvZ's a month, no CoCa, around 15 less TvZ's given KSL/ESV/GSL)
so, you have TLPD International rates, where there are loads of great players split about evenly between all races, or TLPD Korea where there are loads of amazing Terrans, then Protoss and then Zerg. Having said that I obviously can't explain why PvT is so favored in Korea as it shouldn't be given my reasoning, although Protoss did have a great month in GSL.... maybe I'll just refer back to the first point in my post.
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On March 02 2012 19:56 DarQraven wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 19:28 fiveohfive wrote:
So does anyone still want to argue that Protoss isn't a little too powerful in the T v P MU now? Oh, lets give it few more months first I guess, just to make sure Protoss has nothing to argue about.
EDIT: Wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago David Kim said the T v P MU was fine? Hmmmmmmmmmm.......... Keke, loving this. Terran heavily favored for nine months straight? Protoss are just whining. Protoss has positive winrate for two months, for once? Protoss OP. I find it really hard to take this attitude seriously. Apart from the snipe change, nothing was patched in PvT since early November. Are you saying that Protoss has suddenly become more and more OP, even though there weren't any patch changes between november and a week ago? I say give this some time. For the three months that Protoss has had a positive PvT rate --in the graph--, there are actually only two months where the winrate is positive. If you look at the bars, you'll see the data for January 2012 once again show the matchup in favor of Terran by 56%. Hardly reason to call OP on anything.
Well.. stats aren't everything, and he definitely has a point. Protoss does get a little unstoppable when games go to 3+ bases in pvt. I remember somebody linked a graph of avg game length vs winrate in pvt and terrans had an insane advantage before like 12 minutes but then like 35% winrate in games longer than 20 minutes. Seems like there's a problem. Maps are only becoming more friendly toward long games, maybe it's time to tone down toss late game and tone down terran early game (but to a lesser degree).
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4713 Posts
On March 02 2012 19:38 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 18:27 HavocGG wrote:
The korean chart's never been very balanced mainly due to how low the amount of games played is compared to international, keep that in mind guys.
Korean : 363 games
International : 2208 games Good point, wanted to write the same, yet the international charts are almost PERFECT(well at least as good as it can get). Really like it . Also, ZvT is NOT broken after the nerf of ghosts, P is NOT imba anywhere now(though they are doing pretty ok now for a change.) If some months go by with similar balanced stats - who needs HotS?(jk )
That doesn't mean shit, it doesn't matter how large the sample size is, if the quality of the sample is low.
For example at the Diamond level, terrans that don't know how to split marines and/or focus fire tanks against banes, so they trade incredibly cost inefficient, however there are probably thousands of more diamond vs diamond games than pro level games. Does that mean we put any weight on the diamond games? Of course we don't!
The difference between the top level in Korea and the top in EU or NA, is massive, watching the GSL and then ASUS RoG, the difference between the top Korean Toss and the rest of the Toss was mind blowing, the way they manage their armies, their bases, macro, the way they expand and pressure, was all so fundamentally different that it made the rest of the world Toss look like they here in the stone age.
Another huge factor is that Korea now uses a very different map pool from the rest of the world. Korea uses exclusively tournament grade maps and have rooted out maps that where deemed to be imbalanced. A lot of EU, NA tournaments and dailies still use a couple of ladder maps like Metal or Shattered that skew balance in favor of once race or another.
Consider those into your calculation more carefully next time.
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I think the problem is that every terran on ladder is getting raped. Whilst this wasn't true when protoss was getting stomped on the pro levels. Protoss always has been easier to play sub GM so even if terran was OP it balanced it out with protoss just being easier to play. But now that TvP seems balanced at a pro level, all the terrans on ladder are getting destroyed.
I do not understand why there is no statistics for the ladder for this (that I have found). We all know that terrans drop off past silver level, but if it was protoss' fault there would have to be a very clear Z<T<P situation that could confirm the argument. Not that this is very interesting for the balance of the game of course but I still find it a very interesting question.
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Love the korean graph, trend goes into heavy 2 base pushes, woooom, toss winrates go up in korea, got to love the land of allin. Took a while till toss realized how good the range 6 immortal is for attacking, but i guess it favors into it. Good thing we don't have the kulas corner anymore heh. Proxy robos would be fun again.
And the ghost nerf will probably not affect winrates, but it will affect length of games by alot.
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Ouch... These stats look... disturbing.
Korean Protoss really got their strats (and stats) up...
Internationally... as always, the stats are way close to 50-50 then they should be if only "pro vs pro" games did count. Lots of "Pro vs Nonpro" games that the pro wins, independent from balance make the international graphs go towards 50-50.
Korean Zergs in shatters  Were is our Savior?
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On March 02 2012 17:51 Peleus wrote:
As a Zerg, I prefer to argue that we need a buff due to the Korean statistics.
Seriously though, it just goes its hard to even define balance let alone measure it reliably. International says balanced, Korea says otherwise.
It's nice to see the international as balanced as it ever has been though.
Hah, I like this post. International graph show Zerg and Terran even with Protoss a little lower, Korean graph shows Protoss and Terran even, with Zerg a little lower.
Zerg player: International is balanced, Korean isn't.
The graphs themselves seem fairly promising though. It certainly seems to be moving slowly closer to a balanced state.
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EPT
