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On March 18 2012 18:16 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 16:42 Big J wrote:On March 06 2012 15:08 Raambo11 wrote:On March 05 2012 22:37 Xalorian wrote:
People are whinning that Terran is WAY harder to play than Protoss... therefore, the imbalance should be blatant at the foreigners level, right, knowing that Koreans are way closer to the skill ceiling?
But, looking at the numbers, Overall win rate around the world, so including Korea, is pretty much perfectly balanced for every race, while being super Protoss favored in every match up in Korea...
Logically, that means that if you excluded Korea from the overall winrate and that you are only keeping foreigners numbers, Protoss are actually at the lower end of the graph. Not by much, but still under 50% in each match up outside Korea. If those numbers include only high level play... that means that Terran are actually beating protoss more than 50% of the time outside Korea.
So, actually, the "Protoss is WAY easier to play" seems like bullshit to me.
And i'm actually playing Zerg and Terran... so no, it's not bias talking... i'm just looking at numbers.
You probably think this way because your looking at the numbers, and havn't actually played protoss. People get so carried away with the numbers all the time, but considering most of the sample sizes for basically every set of Data that comes onto TL are so small, you can't really get an accurate reading on whats going on. That being said Blizzard is fond of making changes on small sample sizes, and I wish they wouldn't change things so hastily. what? -) a few thousand games is NOT a small samplesize -) blizzard has their own stats from the ladder ladder and from tournament play; at least that's what they say A few thousand games is a tiny sample size that is basically meaningless. BW has swung from one race dominating to another just from maps/people figuring things out. A few thousand games coming out with a 5% higher win-rate for one race is meaningless and the fact that people actually use this to back up their arguments is beyond retarded.
It's neither tiny or meaningless, maybe you should take a course in statistics. Of course many people are drawing unreasonable conclusions from it but saying it's meaningless is much more ignorant than using it (in a sane way) to back up ones argument.
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I'm getting so damn sick and tired of all this Terran whine everywhere I go. GUYS it's been AGES since protoss had a decent run in the GSL, and NO big patches really hit that hurt the PvT matchup. All that changed was SNIPE DMG which does not affect TvP at all. All the success of protoss atm is innovation. Double forge experimentation, making it extremely safe and viable. Now that it has been refined to a point where protoss can safely get to the lategame (its strong point) our % is going up. I say give it some time, terrans will have to tough this one out a bit, its not like we're all inning you with an unbeatable build that needed to be patched. I hear a lot say, a slow transition into mass ghosts is a way but let's wait a bit and see then judge. I for one am glad protoss is ahead for ONCE after so long of Terran dominance. Stop the whining, its way out of hand. Enjoy the metagame as it continues to fluctuate and bring us interesting new strategies and games.
I mean just look at the graphs of how long you terrans have been owning us through the year, let us enjoy this month.
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Well, if people are complaining all around that means something is wrong and Blizzard will have to react. That's what they did previously when Protoss complained about emp and zerg complained about snipe. I'm just curious to see what changes will 1.5 bring. Does anyone know any more about when it comes up?
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On March 21 2012 18:45 itsjuspeter wrote:
I'm getting so damn sick and tired of all this Terran whine everywhere I go. GUYS it's been AGES since protoss had a decent run in the GSL, and NO big patches really hit that hurt the PvT matchup. All that changed was SNIPE DMG which does not affect TvP at all. All the success of protoss atm is innovation. Double forge experimentation, making it extremely safe and viable. Now that it has been refined to a point where protoss can safely get to the lategame (its strong point) our % is going up. I say give it some time, terrans will have to tough this one out a bit, its not like we're all inning you with an unbeatable build that needed to be patched. I hear a lot say, a slow transition into mass ghosts is a way but let's wait a bit and see then judge. I for one am glad protoss is ahead for ONCE after so long of Terran dominance. Stop the whining, its way out of hand. Enjoy the metagame as it continues to fluctuate and bring us interesting new strategies and games.
?
almost every balance change since beta has indirectly or directly effected the PvT matchup... toss upgrade buff, immortal buff, archon buff, emp nerfs, ghost cost change nerf, tank nerf, thor nerf, hellion nerf, stim nerf, rax nerf, snipe nerf.
also, TvP is not interesting. lop sided games are incredibly uncomfortable to watch.... unless it's MC or someone else who refuses to play PvT easy mode.
watching a typical TvP is like watching ZvP back when protoss could just get 200/200 and then win.
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On March 21 2012 18:55 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 18:45 itsjuspeter wrote:
I'm getting so damn sick and tired of all this Terran whine everywhere I go. GUYS it's been AGES since protoss had a decent run in the GSL, and NO big patches really hit that hurt the PvT matchup. All that changed was SNIPE DMG which does not affect TvP at all. All the success of protoss atm is innovation. Double forge experimentation, making it extremely safe and viable. Now that it has been refined to a point where protoss can safely get to the lategame (its strong point) our % is going up. I say give it some time, terrans will have to tough this one out a bit, its not like we're all inning you with an unbeatable build that needed to be patched. I hear a lot say, a slow transition into mass ghosts is a way but let's wait a bit and see then judge. I for one am glad protoss is ahead for ONCE after so long of Terran dominance. Stop the whining, its way out of hand. Enjoy the metagame as it continues to fluctuate and bring us interesting new strategies and games. ? almost every balance change since beta has indirectly or directly effected the PvT matchup... toss upgrade buff, immortal buff, archon buff, emp nerfs, ghost cost change nerf, tank nerf, thor nerf, hellion nerf, stim nerf, rax nerf, snipe nerf. also, TvP is not interesting. lop sided games are incredibly uncomfortable to watch.... unless it's MC or someone else who refuses to play PvT easy mode.
I won't get into a long discussion about this but, Ghost cost was a buff, go find the post about it somewhere in TL and why it was implemented. The protoss upgrade buff seemed reasonable, did you see the shield upgrade costs? Stim nerf was needed to stop 3 racks timings or 1 base stim timings which were crushing zergs. Helion nerf was inteneded to help zerg as well indirectly help protoss, 2 helions could potentially clean a mineral line with blue flame(which btw can still be done with a +1 mech weapons upgrade) and the nerf came to give the opponents a couple more seconds to react before losing workers. Tank nerf was NEEDED, they were too efficient against basically everything, i remember the beta, it was insane with 70 damage tanks. Immortal was NEEDED to address the 1-1-1. EMP nerf isn't that huge, it's been overly discussed. Thor nerf is debatable but auto scv repair was pretty ridiculous. Archon buff was needed, now PvP is able to evolve more and archons which are lierally 100/300 units can't get kited by marauders as efficiently anymore. I think i got most of it?
Yes I agree TvP is quite a stale matchup, I feel that way when I play, and indeed there needs to be something done to "make the matchup more dynamic" but I don't believe anything is broken unless given more time.
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On March 21 2012 19:03 itsjuspeter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 18:55 shizna wrote:On March 21 2012 18:45 itsjuspeter wrote:
I'm getting so damn sick and tired of all this Terran whine everywhere I go. GUYS it's been AGES since protoss had a decent run in the GSL, and NO big patches really hit that hurt the PvT matchup. All that changed was SNIPE DMG which does not affect TvP at all. All the success of protoss atm is innovation. Double forge experimentation, making it extremely safe and viable. Now that it has been refined to a point where protoss can safely get to the lategame (its strong point) our % is going up. I say give it some time, terrans will have to tough this one out a bit, its not like we're all inning you with an unbeatable build that needed to be patched. I hear a lot say, a slow transition into mass ghosts is a way but let's wait a bit and see then judge. I for one am glad protoss is ahead for ONCE after so long of Terran dominance. Stop the whining, its way out of hand. Enjoy the metagame as it continues to fluctuate and bring us interesting new strategies and games. ? almost every balance change since beta has indirectly or directly effected the PvT matchup... toss upgrade buff, immortal buff, archon buff, emp nerfs, ghost cost change nerf, tank nerf, thor nerf, hellion nerf, stim nerf, rax nerf, snipe nerf. also, TvP is not interesting. lop sided games are incredibly uncomfortable to watch.... unless it's MC or someone else who refuses to play PvT easy mode. I won't get into a long discussion about this but, Ghost cost was a buff, go find the post about it somewhere in TL and why it was implemented. The protoss upgrade buff seemed reasonable, did you see the shield upgrade costs? Stim nerf was needed to stop 3 racks timings or 1 base stim timings which were crushing zergs. Helion nerf was inteneded to help zerg as well indirectly help protoss, 2 helions could potentially clean a mineral line with blue flame(which btw can still be done with a +1 mech weapons upgrade) and the nerf came to give the opponents a couple more seconds to react before losing workers. Tank nerf was NEEDED, they were too efficient against basically everything, i remember the beta, it was insane with 70 damage tanks. Immortal was NEEDED to address the 1-1-1. EMP nerf isn't that huge, it's been overly discussed. Thor nerf is debatable but auto scv repair was pretty ridiculous. Archon buff was needed, now PvP is able to evolve more and archons which are lierally 100/300 units can't get kited by marauders as efficiently anymore. I think i got most of it? Yes I agree TvP is quite a stale matchup, I feel that way when I play, and indeed there needs to be something done to "make the matchup more dynamic" but I don't believe anything is broken unless given more time.
Reading the other guy's post might help you make yourself understood. He was talking about the fact that recent T nerfs, whatever their motivation, have had an adverse effect on Terrans in the TvP MU. You listing the motivations doesn't really contribute to the discussion.
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On March 21 2012 19:08 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 19:03 itsjuspeter wrote:On March 21 2012 18:55 shizna wrote:On March 21 2012 18:45 itsjuspeter wrote:
I'm getting so damn sick and tired of all this Terran whine everywhere I go. GUYS it's been AGES since protoss had a decent run in the GSL, and NO big patches really hit that hurt the PvT matchup. All that changed was SNIPE DMG which does not affect TvP at all. All the success of protoss atm is innovation. Double forge experimentation, making it extremely safe and viable. Now that it has been refined to a point where protoss can safely get to the lategame (its strong point) our % is going up. I say give it some time, terrans will have to tough this one out a bit, its not like we're all inning you with an unbeatable build that needed to be patched. I hear a lot say, a slow transition into mass ghosts is a way but let's wait a bit and see then judge. I for one am glad protoss is ahead for ONCE after so long of Terran dominance. Stop the whining, its way out of hand. Enjoy the metagame as it continues to fluctuate and bring us interesting new strategies and games. ? almost every balance change since beta has indirectly or directly effected the PvT matchup... toss upgrade buff, immortal buff, archon buff, emp nerfs, ghost cost change nerf, tank nerf, thor nerf, hellion nerf, stim nerf, rax nerf, snipe nerf. also, TvP is not interesting. lop sided games are incredibly uncomfortable to watch.... unless it's MC or someone else who refuses to play PvT easy mode. I won't get into a long discussion about this but, Ghost cost was a buff, go find the post about it somewhere in TL and why it was implemented. The protoss upgrade buff seemed reasonable, did you see the shield upgrade costs? Stim nerf was needed to stop 3 racks timings or 1 base stim timings which were crushing zergs. Helion nerf was inteneded to help zerg as well indirectly help protoss, 2 helions could potentially clean a mineral line with blue flame(which btw can still be done with a +1 mech weapons upgrade) and the nerf came to give the opponents a couple more seconds to react before losing workers. Tank nerf was NEEDED, they were too efficient against basically everything, i remember the beta, it was insane with 70 damage tanks. Immortal was NEEDED to address the 1-1-1. EMP nerf isn't that huge, it's been overly discussed. Thor nerf is debatable but auto scv repair was pretty ridiculous. Archon buff was needed, now PvP is able to evolve more and archons which are lierally 100/300 units can't get kited by marauders as efficiently anymore. I think i got most of it? Yes I agree TvP is quite a stale matchup, I feel that way when I play, and indeed there needs to be something done to "make the matchup more dynamic" but I don't believe anything is broken unless given more time. Reading the other guy's post might help you make yourself understood. He was talking about the fact that recent T nerfs, whatever their motivation, have had an adverse effect on Terrans in the TvP MU. You listing the motivations doesn't really contribute to the discussion.
And I stated the reasons to show you they were all needed or else ZvT would of been unplayable. Yes it can have an added affect on the TvP matchup but I can't really see anything much from it other than making certain stim timings weaker. The other nerfs other than that one were addressed directly at TvP and were done so to help the protoss out so you would expect protoss to do better after those, hence everything else was either for all matchups or the TvZ matchup.
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On March 21 2012 18:45 itsjuspeter wrote:
I'm getting so damn sick and tired of all this Terran whine everywhere I go. GUYS it's been AGES since protoss had a decent run in the GSL, and NO big patches really hit that hurt the PvT matchup. All that changed was SNIPE DMG which does not affect TvP at all. All the success of protoss atm is innovation. Double forge experimentation, making it extremely safe and viable. Now that it has been refined to a point where protoss can safely get to the lategame (its strong point) our % is going up. I say give it some time, terrans will have to tough this one out a bit, its not like we're all inning you with an unbeatable build that needed to be patched. I hear a lot say, a slow transition into mass ghosts is a way but let's wait a bit and see then judge. I for one am glad protoss is ahead for ONCE after so long of Terran dominance. Stop the whining, its way out of hand. Enjoy the metagame as it continues to fluctuate and bring us interesting new strategies and games.
I mean just look at the graphs of how long you terrans have been owning us through the year, let us enjoy this month.
I've bolded the reason why someone pointed out patches that hurt TvP.
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On March 21 2012 18:24 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 17:47 Corsica wrote:
funny how its first time in a year where protoss winning more in PvT and all terran start crying so much... funny how you are either blind or didn't look at the graphs at all.
sry, two months...still we had <50% winrates all the time and didnt whine, never Protoss had adv vs Terran, like Terran has vs Protoss...so, bitch please.
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Blizzard please no patches.
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On April 05 2012 23:34 pres.sure wrote:If anyone is interested, the stats for March are out: http://t.co/w41IeE3D
the International zergs have for the first time beaten the 50% against terran and the korean zvt trend is also going up, go zerg!
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wow
so the second month in two years that zerg beats Terran.
I wonder what build they're using in Korea.
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On April 05 2012 23:34 pres.sure wrote:If anyone is interested, the stats for March are out: http://t.co/w41IeE3D
I bet a lot of Terrans will be feeling pretty silly right now, and a lot of my Aiur brethren will feel justified in complaining about abusive Zerg play in ZvP.
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On April 05 2012 23:41 Shiori wrote:I bet a lot of Terrans will be feeling pretty silly right now, and a lot of my Aiur brethren will feel justified in complaining about abusive Zerg play in ZvP.
PvZ is Protoss favored this month though lol. -.-
Wow first time ZvT is Zerg favored since the beginning of this game. Holy crap! This is amazing, congrats.
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On April 05 2012 23:41 Shiori wrote:I bet a lot of Terrans will be feeling pretty silly right now, and a lot of my Aiur brethren will feel justified in complaining about abusive Zerg play in ZvP.
I don't feel silly - I am still losing as much vs protoss as I was before in masters league.
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Wow can't believe Z is doing so well. I guess GSL is still the only league where Z can't seem to get consistent results (ska when P or T can prepare for a while).
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On April 05 2012 23:43 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 23:41 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2012 23:34 pres.sure wrote:If anyone is interested, the stats for March are out: http://t.co/w41IeE3D I bet a lot of Terrans will be feeling pretty silly right now, and a lot of my Aiur brethren will feel justified in complaining about abusive Zerg play in ZvP. I don't feel silly - I am still losing as much vs protoss as I was before in masters league.
Then the problem is with you. Not with protoss.
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On April 05 2012 23:47 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 23:43 Horseballs wrote:On April 05 2012 23:41 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2012 23:34 pres.sure wrote:If anyone is interested, the stats for March are out: http://t.co/w41IeE3D I bet a lot of Terrans will be feeling pretty silly right now, and a lot of my Aiur brethren will feel justified in complaining about abusive Zerg play in ZvP. I don't feel silly - I am still losing as much vs protoss as I was before in masters league. Then the problem is with you. Not with protoss.
Can you substantiate that claim? I've got a year of data and replays to look at, you are just blindly spouting your politically correct language at me.
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On April 05 2012 23:50 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 23:47 Piledriver wrote:On April 05 2012 23:43 Horseballs wrote:On April 05 2012 23:41 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2012 23:34 pres.sure wrote:If anyone is interested, the stats for March are out: http://t.co/w41IeE3D I bet a lot of Terrans will be feeling pretty silly right now, and a lot of my Aiur brethren will feel justified in complaining about abusive Zerg play in ZvP. I don't feel silly - I am still losing as much vs protoss as I was before in masters league. Then the problem is with you. Not with protoss. Can you substantiate that claim? I've got a year of data and replays to look at, you are just blindly spouting your politically correct language at me.
Is the phrase 'politically correct language' your substitute for argument? This is the second time I've seen you use it in the space of an hour.
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EPT
