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On March 05 2012 09:24 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 00:41 Dalavita wrote:
The better players chose terran, because of the BW heritage, and protoss players improved at a slower rate compared to the other races because of the ease of the race. There are examples that stand out, but at this stage, most of the top tier protosses are significantly worse than their zerg/terran buddies. A recent example is the Genius vs DRG finals where Genius was outskilled by quite a bit by his opponent, or even Inca vs Nestea. I can't think of one terran or zerg who reached the GSL finals who wasn't a top tier beast. you're so full of male cattle excrement... implying that top, rain, july, losira are much better players than genius or mc. that one sentence made your opinion invalid and mkp cheesing in 90% of his games in open season 2. he became a legit player but he literally cheesed in almost every game. also comparing genius to inca. lol genius had a ridiculously hard road to the finals. your bias is so strong and irrational that it makes your opinion hard to take seriously
Top is an amazing player, and so is Losira. I don't even remember the rain GSL run so I'll give you that one, and July played a style of zerg that fit extremely well with the metagame when he got to the GSL finals by being stupid aggressive and busting terrans down when everyone else were playing passively.
Also, I haven't mentioned MC. He's one of the few protosses who got respectable top tier skills. Genius is my textbook definition of a mediocre protoss protossing his way to the finals.
MKP has always ALWAYS been a top tier player. I don't care if he cheeses his way to a finals as long as he's actually skilled at the game. He would have gotten to the finals regardless of cheese or macro games and the only reason he lost against Nestea was because he choked hard.
+ Show Spoiler +You like the male cattle excrement don't you? OM NOM NOM
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Thanks for standardizing the y-axis.
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On March 05 2012 10:03 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 09:24 msjakofsky wrote:On March 05 2012 00:41 Dalavita wrote:
The better players chose terran, because of the BW heritage, and protoss players improved at a slower rate compared to the other races because of the ease of the race. There are examples that stand out, but at this stage, most of the top tier protosses are significantly worse than their zerg/terran buddies. A recent example is the Genius vs DRG finals where Genius was outskilled by quite a bit by his opponent, or even Inca vs Nestea. I can't think of one terran or zerg who reached the GSL finals who wasn't a top tier beast. you're so full of male cattle excrement... implying that top, rain, july, losira are much better players than genius or mc. that one sentence made your opinion invalid and mkp cheesing in 90% of his games in open season 2. he became a legit player but he literally cheesed in almost every game. also comparing genius to inca. lol genius had a ridiculously hard road to the finals. your bias is so strong and irrational that it makes your opinion hard to take seriously Top is an amazing player, and so is Losira. I don't even remember the rain GSL run so I'll give you that one, and July played a style of zerg that fit extremely well with the metagame when he got to the GSL finals by being stupid aggressive and busting terrans down when everyone else were playing passively. Also, I haven't mentioned MC. He's one of the few protosses who got respectable top tier skills. Genius is my textbook definition of a mediocre protoss protossing his way to the finals. MKP has always ALWAYS been a top tier player. I don't care if he cheeses his way to a finals as long as he's actually skilled at the game. He would have gotten to the finals regardless of cheese or macro games and the only reason he lost against Nestea was because he choked hard. + Show Spoiler +You like the male cattle excrement don't you? OM NOM NOM
you don't "protoss your way to the finals" in the hardest competition in the world, lol dude get real. he beat fucking nestea, drg, marineking, sc, alive. most of these guys have a really good vP record. and most of these guys have a good record vs MC who you consider top skilled. your opinion doesn't make sense at all.
also top was never an amazing player. he was pretty good but not amazing. july is terribly inconsistent and has too obvious flaws in his play for a code s finalist. Rain and MKP cheesed their way to the finals. those were textbook examples of "terraning" the way to the finals.
you're a bitter terran/zerg player who doesn't have arguments and you even admit it... "I don't care if he cheeses his way to a finals as long as he's actually skilled at the game"- you call someone who stomped like 6-7 world's top class players in the ground unworthy for the finals, yet someone who cheeses with 2 rax scv pull in every game was worthy for the finals because you think he was skilled. bottom line, you define who is skilled and worthy and not necessarily based on the game, just cuz you like it that way.
also i wonder what were your thoughts when zerg and terran had ridiculous winrates vs protoss a few months ago, btw the race with the worst results overall, and not much changed that affected the matchups in a major way bar the metagame.
you know you shouldn't argue with that mentality in a place where there might be adults or people who have just a tiny ability to remain objective. i'm pretty sure this reply is utterly futile from me and you'll go on with your nonsense but somehow i had the mood to write it
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I love looking at these stats every month, thanks for posting as always!!  Also, I find it really interesting how much of a distance there is between the Z winning percentage and the P winning percentage in Korea. I think that's a really accurate representation of my games as well.
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On March 04 2012 01:05 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:55 SeaSwift wrote:On March 04 2012 00:54 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:01 SeaSwift wrote:
For fuck's sake, if you aren't a pro, any percieved imbalance at your level of play can be overcome by just playing better instead of whining on forums. End of story. Unless the game is completely broken and imbalanced to the point of being unplayable, eg the 10 damage per shot Marine, you are not affected by balance. The problem is when you have to play twice as good as your opponent and still barely beat him in standard macro game eg: TvP. Of course, that might be problem. And we can know this to be true because... you said so. I've seen posts from players like BeastyQT and Cloud basically saying the same thing, strelok just yesterday was telling on his stream how you just need to be better much better then the protoss to win playing completely standard. Why do you think no foreign Terran has won a major tournament in 1.5 years.
It's completely true. Right now TvP is in shambles, it's past the point of "Terrans figuring it out." There blatantly is a p>t balance problem right now for many, many reasons. A lot of people like to pretend all is fine and hunky dory, but it's sadly not right now.
The question is, is blizzard not fixing lategame TvP right now (lategame tvz not much better) because they are waiting for HOTS to magically fix it? Or are they simply just taking their good old time? You do in fact have to play much, much better than the protoss player to win lategame TvP right now. Or you have to get lucky/diceroll with medivac drops, but that rarely works nowadays.
As for T all-ins, all of them were patched into oblivion, none of the protoss related gateway allins, stargate+gateway or robo+gateway allins were patched at all, which makes the match-up even more difficult for Terrans because you either are playing against a dice roll or you are playing a straight up macro game with a disadvantage due to the balance of the match-up lategame right now.
It'll be interesting to see what blizzard is doing right now to address the obvious problem. Yes, it is a problem.
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Moral of the story: If you whine enough Blizzard will buff your race. Might also be a reason why T gets nerfed almost every patch. Since terran players are shamed for playing terran by the SCII community they aren't as vocal with their opinions as P or Z hence they become more likely targets for nerfs. Couple with the fact that the majority of foreign pros and casters play P or Z, their is a tendency for bias to be skewed in favor of those races. Happens in tournaments, interviews, STOG...
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On March 05 2012 14:03 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:
Moral of the story: If you whine enough Blizzard will buff your race. Might also be a reason why T gets nerfed almost every patch. Since terran players are shamed for playing terran by the SCII community they aren't as vocal with their opinions as P or Z hence they become more likely targets for nerfs. Couple with the fact that the majority of foreign pros and casters play P or Z, their is a tendency for bias to be skewed in favor of those races. Happens in tournaments, interviews, STOG...
Moral of the story: You should probably look at the previous months of data before posting again.
Also, STOG?
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On March 05 2012 14:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 14:03 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:
Moral of the story: If you whine enough Blizzard will buff your race. Might also be a reason why T gets nerfed almost every patch. Since terran players are shamed for playing terran by the SCII community they aren't as vocal with their opinions as P or Z hence they become more likely targets for nerfs. Couple with the fact that the majority of foreign pros and casters play P or Z, their is a tendency for bias to be skewed in favor of those races. Happens in tournaments, interviews, STOG... Moral of the story: You should probably look at the previous months of data before posting again. Also, STOG?
SOTG is very protoss biased, and very rarely features a terran player. It mostly consists of artosis, tyler, incontrol (all protosses), jp (who doesn't really play, as far I know) and some quest who is occasionally Terran but is usually Idra.
YOU should be the one looking at previous data. Terran, in January, wasn't the strongest race. However, we still got nerfed, even though Zerg was the most imbalanced race not Terran. Please follow your own advice before posting again.
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On March 05 2012 15:18 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 14:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 05 2012 14:03 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:
Moral of the story: If you whine enough Blizzard will buff your race. Might also be a reason why T gets nerfed almost every patch. Since terran players are shamed for playing terran by the SCII community they aren't as vocal with their opinions as P or Z hence they become more likely targets for nerfs. Couple with the fact that the majority of foreign pros and casters play P or Z, their is a tendency for bias to be skewed in favor of those races. Happens in tournaments, interviews, STOG... Moral of the story: You should probably look at the previous months of data before posting again. Also, STOG? SOTG is very protoss biased, and very rarely features a terran player. It mostly consists of artosis, tyler, incontrol (all protosses), jp (who doesn't really play, as far I know) and some quest who is occasionally Terran but is usually Idra. YOU should be the one looking at previous data. Terran, in January, wasn't the strongest race. However, we still got nerfed, even though Zerg was the most imbalanced race not Terran. Please follow your own advice before posting again.
First of all, Terran has consistently been the strongest race for the longest period of time. So for RUSRODAH to claim that all you need to do is whine and you'll get buffed or nerfed (as opposed to actually have stats backing up reasons for deserving buffs or nerfs) was absurd and what I was pointing out.
Second, it seems you need a lesson in reading comprehension. Go look at the January graphs. Note that Terran is beating both Zerg and Protoss in the TvZ and TvP match-ups, as is the norm for both graphs. The only reason why the Zerg bar is slightly higher on the overall graph is because ZvP happened to be ridiculously one-sided for that one specific month, and that overwhelmed that stat and boosted it over both other races in the overall percentages. However, that doesn't mean that Terran wasn't still beating both other races overall in the individual graphs. Learn to read.
Last time I checked, the ZvP graph says nothing about how well the Terrans are doing, but I'm always glad to point out a red herring.
And I only pointed out "STOG" because he was too busy posting nonsense to even write out an acronym properly. I'm well aware of State of the Game, but not STOG. And I'm fairly certain that Blizzard takes all pro-gamers' voices into account, rather than *only* SOTG, considering that's what Blizzard has announced (several times) they use for feedback (among other outlets). Why SOTG would directly cause Protoss patches just because there are Protoss speakers... I think you have a correlation implies causation problem there.
Maybe RUSRODAH should stop trolling the forum with "Whining = Blizzard will buff your race" and pay more attention to his arguments and spelling, and you should learn how to read some winrate graphs and follow all the actual arguments that have been discussed by all the pro-gamers and players (not just the ones on SOTG).
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I'm Protoss, but PvT is looking kinda sad.
ZvP and TvZ are both pretty even, but PvT needs some changes.
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On March 05 2012 13:51 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 01:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:55 SeaSwift wrote:On March 04 2012 00:54 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:01 SeaSwift wrote:
For fuck's sake, if you aren't a pro, any percieved imbalance at your level of play can be overcome by just playing better instead of whining on forums. End of story. Unless the game is completely broken and imbalanced to the point of being unplayable, eg the 10 damage per shot Marine, you are not affected by balance. The problem is when you have to play twice as good as your opponent and still barely beat him in standard macro game eg: TvP. Of course, that might be problem. And we can know this to be true because... you said so. I've seen posts from players like BeastyQT and Cloud basically saying the same thing, strelok just yesterday was telling on his stream how you just need to be better much better then the protoss to win playing completely standard. Why do you think no foreign Terran has won a major tournament in 1.5 years. It's completely true. Right now TvP is in shambles, it's past the point of "Terrans figuring it out." There blatantly is a p>t balance problem right now for many, many reasons. A lot of people like to pretend all is fine and hunky dory, but it's sadly not right now. The question is, is blizzard not fixing lategame TvP right now (lategame tvz not much better) because they are waiting for HOTS to magically fix it? Or are they simply just taking their good old time? You do in fact have to play much, much better than the protoss player to win lategame TvP right now. Or you have to get lucky/diceroll with medivac drops, but that rarely works nowadays. As for T all-ins, all of them were patched into oblivion, none of the protoss related gateway allins, stargate+gateway or robo+gateway allins were patched at all, which makes the match-up even more difficult for Terrans because you either are playing against a dice roll or you are playing a straight up macro game with a disadvantage due to the balance of the match-up lategame right now. It'll be interesting to see what blizzard is doing right now to address the obvious problem. Yes, it is a problem.
what a terrible post. you're too busy whining about an 5 second build time nerf for barracks to remember warpgate/blink/void ray etc nerfs, aren't you. you shouldn't post here ever again with such blatant misinformative crap.
also not like terran 1-base allins aren't still infinite times better than any of the other 2 races' and i don't really remember any patch touching them directly to a significant degree, besides that 5 second nerf or maybe a onebase ghost rush
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Wow, you guys are so hard at work arguing about balance that there is only one post regarding Idra's gloating and one other regarding the reformatting of the photos in the last 3 pages... Keep up the good work in your own little world.
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On March 05 2012 19:09 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 13:51 avilo wrote:On March 04 2012 01:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:55 SeaSwift wrote:On March 04 2012 00:54 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:01 SeaSwift wrote:
For fuck's sake, if you aren't a pro, any percieved imbalance at your level of play can be overcome by just playing better instead of whining on forums. End of story. Unless the game is completely broken and imbalanced to the point of being unplayable, eg the 10 damage per shot Marine, you are not affected by balance. The problem is when you have to play twice as good as your opponent and still barely beat him in standard macro game eg: TvP. Of course, that might be problem. And we can know this to be true because... you said so. I've seen posts from players like BeastyQT and Cloud basically saying the same thing, strelok just yesterday was telling on his stream how you just need to be better much better then the protoss to win playing completely standard. Why do you think no foreign Terran has won a major tournament in 1.5 years. It's completely true. Right now TvP is in shambles, it's past the point of "Terrans figuring it out." There blatantly is a p>t balance problem right now for many, many reasons. A lot of people like to pretend all is fine and hunky dory, but it's sadly not right now. The question is, is blizzard not fixing lategame TvP right now (lategame tvz not much better) because they are waiting for HOTS to magically fix it? Or are they simply just taking their good old time? You do in fact have to play much, much better than the protoss player to win lategame TvP right now. Or you have to get lucky/diceroll with medivac drops, but that rarely works nowadays. As for T all-ins, all of them were patched into oblivion, none of the protoss related gateway allins, stargate+gateway or robo+gateway allins were patched at all, which makes the match-up even more difficult for Terrans because you either are playing against a dice roll or you are playing a straight up macro game with a disadvantage due to the balance of the match-up lategame right now. It'll be interesting to see what blizzard is doing right now to address the obvious problem. Yes, it is a problem. what a terrible post. you're too busy whining about an 5 second build time nerf for barracks to remember warpgate/blink/void ray etc nerfs, aren't you. you shouldn't post here ever again with such blatant misinformative crap. also not like terran 1-base allins aren't still infinite times better than any of the other 2 races' and i don't really remember any patch touching them directly to a significant degree, besides that 5 second nerf or maybe a onebase ghost rush
I just want to point something out about Terran/Protoss 1 base all-ins in TvP:
All-ins Terran has to worry about:
-4 Gate
-3 Gate Blink Stalker (Into 4 Gate)
-3 Gate VoidRay
-4 Gate VoidRay
-4 Gate Warp Prism
-3 Gate Immortal Bust
-DT Drop
All-ins Protoss has to worry about:
-1-1-1
-Marine Stim/Combat +1 Medivac timing
Even if I missed 1 or 2 Terran all-ins and unfairly added Protoss all-ins, there are still clearly many more all-ins the Terran has to worry about. Each one you HAVE to be prepared for in different ways or else the all-in will do enough damage to warrant the attack.
It gets even worse when it's 2-base...
No, Terran all-ins aren't "infinite" times better than other races either.
Anyways, stop bashing pointlessly. Avilo is a high GM player on a good team. He knows what he's talking about.
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On March 05 2012 19:31 Ewic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 19:09 msjakofsky wrote:On March 05 2012 13:51 avilo wrote:On March 04 2012 01:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:55 SeaSwift wrote:On March 04 2012 00:54 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:01 SeaSwift wrote:
For fuck's sake, if you aren't a pro, any percieved imbalance at your level of play can be overcome by just playing better instead of whining on forums. End of story. Unless the game is completely broken and imbalanced to the point of being unplayable, eg the 10 damage per shot Marine, you are not affected by balance. The problem is when you have to play twice as good as your opponent and still barely beat him in standard macro game eg: TvP. Of course, that might be problem. And we can know this to be true because... you said so. I've seen posts from players like BeastyQT and Cloud basically saying the same thing, strelok just yesterday was telling on his stream how you just need to be better much better then the protoss to win playing completely standard. Why do you think no foreign Terran has won a major tournament in 1.5 years. It's completely true. Right now TvP is in shambles, it's past the point of "Terrans figuring it out." There blatantly is a p>t balance problem right now for many, many reasons. A lot of people like to pretend all is fine and hunky dory, but it's sadly not right now. The question is, is blizzard not fixing lategame TvP right now (lategame tvz not much better) because they are waiting for HOTS to magically fix it? Or are they simply just taking their good old time? You do in fact have to play much, much better than the protoss player to win lategame TvP right now. Or you have to get lucky/diceroll with medivac drops, but that rarely works nowadays. As for T all-ins, all of them were patched into oblivion, none of the protoss related gateway allins, stargate+gateway or robo+gateway allins were patched at all, which makes the match-up even more difficult for Terrans because you either are playing against a dice roll or you are playing a straight up macro game with a disadvantage due to the balance of the match-up lategame right now. It'll be interesting to see what blizzard is doing right now to address the obvious problem. Yes, it is a problem. what a terrible post. you're too busy whining about an 5 second build time nerf for barracks to remember warpgate/blink/void ray etc nerfs, aren't you. you shouldn't post here ever again with such blatant misinformative crap. also not like terran 1-base allins aren't still infinite times better than any of the other 2 races' and i don't really remember any patch touching them directly to a significant degree, besides that 5 second nerf or maybe a onebase ghost rush I just want to point something out about Terran/Protoss 1 base all-ins in TvP: All-ins Terran has to worry about: -4 Gate -3 Gate Blink Stalker (Into 4 Gate) -3 Gate VoidRay -4 Gate VoidRay -4 Gate Warp Prism -3 Gate Immortal Bust -DT Drop All-ins Protoss has to worry about: -1-1-1 -Marine Stim/Combat +1 Medivac timing Even if I missed 1 or 2 Terran all-ins and unfairly added Protoss all-ins, there are still clearly many more all-ins the Terran has to worry about. Each one you HAVE to be prepared for in different ways or else the all-in will do enough damage to warrant the attack. It gets even worse when it's 2-base... No, Terran all-ins aren't "infinite" times better than other races either. Anyways, stop bashing pointlessly. Avilo is a high GM player on a good team. He knows what he's talking about.
lmfao i wonder what race you play
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Meh, I never believe what the pros say about balance - or, at least, I'm always skeptical. They almost always balance whine in favor of their race, leading me to believe that despite their vastly superior knowledge of the game, there's still a huge bias factor that just makes their discussions of balance kind of questionable. Yes, they have authority on their side. Yes, they are vastly better at the game than anyone else. However, when Cloud, Strelok, etc. complain about balance and then I see top Toss players like Genius and Oz say that Terran/Protoss balance is fine, the argument from authority (i.e the "I understand the game way better than a diamond league player like you so don't dispute my balance complaints" argument) falls apart because we have clear clashes in opinions from two sides who supposedly understand the game extremely well. If pros of all races actually unite concerning a balance issue, then I'll take that issue more seriously.
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On March 05 2012 19:35 horsebanger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 19:31 Ewic wrote:On March 05 2012 19:09 msjakofsky wrote:On March 05 2012 13:51 avilo wrote:On March 04 2012 01:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:55 SeaSwift wrote:On March 04 2012 00:54 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:01 SeaSwift wrote:
For fuck's sake, if you aren't a pro, any percieved imbalance at your level of play can be overcome by just playing better instead of whining on forums. End of story. Unless the game is completely broken and imbalanced to the point of being unplayable, eg the 10 damage per shot Marine, you are not affected by balance. The problem is when you have to play twice as good as your opponent and still barely beat him in standard macro game eg: TvP. Of course, that might be problem. And we can know this to be true because... you said so. I've seen posts from players like BeastyQT and Cloud basically saying the same thing, strelok just yesterday was telling on his stream how you just need to be better much better then the protoss to win playing completely standard. Why do you think no foreign Terran has won a major tournament in 1.5 years. It's completely true. Right now TvP is in shambles, it's past the point of "Terrans figuring it out." There blatantly is a p>t balance problem right now for many, many reasons. A lot of people like to pretend all is fine and hunky dory, but it's sadly not right now. The question is, is blizzard not fixing lategame TvP right now (lategame tvz not much better) because they are waiting for HOTS to magically fix it? Or are they simply just taking their good old time? You do in fact have to play much, much better than the protoss player to win lategame TvP right now. Or you have to get lucky/diceroll with medivac drops, but that rarely works nowadays. As for T all-ins, all of them were patched into oblivion, none of the protoss related gateway allins, stargate+gateway or robo+gateway allins were patched at all, which makes the match-up even more difficult for Terrans because you either are playing against a dice roll or you are playing a straight up macro game with a disadvantage due to the balance of the match-up lategame right now. It'll be interesting to see what blizzard is doing right now to address the obvious problem. Yes, it is a problem. what a terrible post. you're too busy whining about an 5 second build time nerf for barracks to remember warpgate/blink/void ray etc nerfs, aren't you. you shouldn't post here ever again with such blatant misinformative crap. also not like terran 1-base allins aren't still infinite times better than any of the other 2 races' and i don't really remember any patch touching them directly to a significant degree, besides that 5 second nerf or maybe a onebase ghost rush I just want to point something out about Terran/Protoss 1 base all-ins in TvP: All-ins Terran has to worry about: -4 Gate -3 Gate Blink Stalker (Into 4 Gate) -3 Gate VoidRay -4 Gate VoidRay -4 Gate Warp Prism -3 Gate Immortal Bust -DT Drop All-ins Protoss has to worry about: -1-1-1 -Marine Stim/Combat +1 Medivac timing Even if I missed 1 or 2 Terran all-ins and unfairly added Protoss all-ins, there are still clearly many more all-ins the Terran has to worry about. Each one you HAVE to be prepared for in different ways or else the all-in will do enough damage to warrant the attack. It gets even worse when it's 2-base... No, Terran all-ins aren't "infinite" times better than other races either. Anyways, stop bashing pointlessly. Avilo is a high GM player on a good team. He knows what he's talking about. lmfao i wonder what race you play
You wonder? It says in my signature that I play Terran.
People who don't offer any sort of counter-arguments to what I say and only bash are a big reason why talented players choose not to post their opinions on balance. I'm sorry I ever posted here.
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On March 05 2012 19:31 Ewic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 19:09 msjakofsky wrote:On March 05 2012 13:51 avilo wrote:On March 04 2012 01:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:55 SeaSwift wrote:On March 04 2012 00:54 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:01 SeaSwift wrote:
For fuck's sake, if you aren't a pro, any percieved imbalance at your level of play can be overcome by just playing better instead of whining on forums. End of story. Unless the game is completely broken and imbalanced to the point of being unplayable, eg the 10 damage per shot Marine, you are not affected by balance. The problem is when you have to play twice as good as your opponent and still barely beat him in standard macro game eg: TvP. Of course, that might be problem. And we can know this to be true because... you said so. I've seen posts from players like BeastyQT and Cloud basically saying the same thing, strelok just yesterday was telling on his stream how you just need to be better much better then the protoss to win playing completely standard. Why do you think no foreign Terran has won a major tournament in 1.5 years. It's completely true. Right now TvP is in shambles, it's past the point of "Terrans figuring it out." There blatantly is a p>t balance problem right now for many, many reasons. A lot of people like to pretend all is fine and hunky dory, but it's sadly not right now. The question is, is blizzard not fixing lategame TvP right now (lategame tvz not much better) because they are waiting for HOTS to magically fix it? Or are they simply just taking their good old time? You do in fact have to play much, much better than the protoss player to win lategame TvP right now. Or you have to get lucky/diceroll with medivac drops, but that rarely works nowadays. As for T all-ins, all of them were patched into oblivion, none of the protoss related gateway allins, stargate+gateway or robo+gateway allins were patched at all, which makes the match-up even more difficult for Terrans because you either are playing against a dice roll or you are playing a straight up macro game with a disadvantage due to the balance of the match-up lategame right now. It'll be interesting to see what blizzard is doing right now to address the obvious problem. Yes, it is a problem. what a terrible post. you're too busy whining about an 5 second build time nerf for barracks to remember warpgate/blink/void ray etc nerfs, aren't you. you shouldn't post here ever again with such blatant misinformative crap. also not like terran 1-base allins aren't still infinite times better than any of the other 2 races' and i don't really remember any patch touching them directly to a significant degree, besides that 5 second nerf or maybe a onebase ghost rush I just want to point something out about Terran/Protoss 1 base all-ins in TvP: All-ins Terran has to worry about: -4 Gate -3 Gate Blink Stalker (Into 4 Gate) -3 Gate VoidRay -4 Gate VoidRay -4 Gate Warp Prism -3 Gate Immortal Bust -DT Drop All-ins Protoss has to worry about: -1-1-1 -Marine Stim/Combat +1 Medivac timing Even if I missed 1 or 2 Terran all-ins and unfairly added Protoss all-ins, there are still clearly many more all-ins the Terran has to worry about. Each one you HAVE to be prepared for in different ways or else the all-in will do enough damage to warrant the attack. It gets even worse when it's 2-base... No, Terran all-ins aren't "infinite" times better than other races either. Anyways, stop bashing pointlessly. Avilo is a high GM player on a good team. He knows what he's talking about.
there are a lot of weird shit a terran can throw at toss, but if the toss has brain and an average control, he can definitely hold everything with standard play and some camping.
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On March 05 2012 12:35 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 10:03 Dalavita wrote:On March 05 2012 09:24 msjakofsky wrote:On March 05 2012 00:41 Dalavita wrote:
The better players chose terran, because of the BW heritage, and protoss players improved at a slower rate compared to the other races because of the ease of the race. There are examples that stand out, but at this stage, most of the top tier protosses are significantly worse than their zerg/terran buddies. A recent example is the Genius vs DRG finals where Genius was outskilled by quite a bit by his opponent, or even Inca vs Nestea. I can't think of one terran or zerg who reached the GSL finals who wasn't a top tier beast. you're so full of male cattle excrement... implying that top, rain, july, losira are much better players than genius or mc. that one sentence made your opinion invalid and mkp cheesing in 90% of his games in open season 2. he became a legit player but he literally cheesed in almost every game. also comparing genius to inca. lol genius had a ridiculously hard road to the finals. your bias is so strong and irrational that it makes your opinion hard to take seriously Top is an amazing player, and so is Losira. I don't even remember the rain GSL run so I'll give you that one, and July played a style of zerg that fit extremely well with the metagame when he got to the GSL finals by being stupid aggressive and busting terrans down when everyone else were playing passively. Also, I haven't mentioned MC. He's one of the few protosses who got respectable top tier skills. Genius is my textbook definition of a mediocre protoss protossing his way to the finals. MKP has always ALWAYS been a top tier player. I don't care if he cheeses his way to a finals as long as he's actually skilled at the game. He would have gotten to the finals regardless of cheese or macro games and the only reason he lost against Nestea was because he choked hard. + Show Spoiler +You like the male cattle excrement don't you? OM NOM NOM you don't "protoss your way to the finals" in the hardest competition in the world, lol dude get real. he beat fucking nestea, drg, marineking, sc, alive. most of these guys have a really good vP record. and most of these guys have a good record vs MC who you consider top skilled. your opinion doesn't make sense at all. also top was never an amazing player. he was pretty good but not amazing. july is terribly inconsistent and has too obvious flaws in his play for a code s finalist. Rain and MKP cheesed their way to the finals. those were textbook examples of "terraning" the way to the finals. you're a bitter terran/zerg player who doesn't have arguments and you even admit it... "I don't care if he cheeses his way to a finals as long as he's actually skilled at the game"- you call someone who stomped like 6-7 world's top class players in the ground unworthy for the finals, yet someone who cheeses with 2 rax scv pull in every game was worthy for the finals because you think he was skilled. bottom line, you define who is skilled and worthy and not necessarily based on the game, just cuz you like it that way. also i wonder what were your thoughts when zerg and terran had ridiculous winrates vs protoss a few months ago, btw the race with the worst results overall, and not much changed that affected the matchups in a major way bar the metagame. you know you shouldn't argue with that mentality in a place where there might be adults or people who have just a tiny ability to remain objective. i'm pretty sure this reply is utterly futile from me and you'll go on with your nonsense but somehow i had the mood to write it
Of course, you should only respond when you're in the mood for it. When else?
It's true that you can't simply waltz your way to the GSL finals, but it's enough to be a mediocre pro and be protoss to get to the GSL finals the way Genius did, i.e protossing your way to the finals. Top has always been an amazing player, and his first game against MVP in their finals showed off his skills like nothing else could. There has been nothing Genius has done that has been impressive over the time I've seen him play. All he's done is do shitty all-ins, control them poorly yet still get ahead, or rely on the strength of the protoss deathball in TvP to carry him through, like against Alive, only to crumble in a finals setting when there are multiple games back to back, after horrendous play in at least three of the games, and that's not counting the carrier game.
MKP showed his level of skill in the seasons where he got to the finals. He fucking invented the marine splitting, and anyone doubting his skill after watching him play vs Kyrix is insane. It's irrelevant if he all-ined his way to the finals or played massive macro games when he was heads and tails above everyone in that tournament. In retrospect, Genius or Inca have done nothing nearly as impressive in their plays EVER. The most impressive thing Genius has ever done is pull an injured void ray away from non-stimmed marine while doing a bust, and his finals games showed his lack of refinement and game sense.
I'll define who is skilled or not based on watching their games for a long period of time. Over that period of time I have seen very few protoss players show me anything that's remotely impressive, and you can bet your ass that I'm a bitter player because I spent ages being optimistic and hoping that Blizzard would eventually make the game better in HotS or open protoss up by making it more micro friendly and harder to play, and after retarded decisions like the phoenix/snipe change and looking at what hots is bringing to the table, is enough to make anyone who cares about the entertainment value of the game rather than his personal races wellbeing bitter. Instead of making protoss harder to play, they're moving to make terran as easy in the lategame.
Everyone should be bitter about the state of protoss right now. The race is shoehorned into the game and is awfully designed.
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On March 05 2012 19:31 Ewic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 19:09 msjakofsky wrote:On March 05 2012 13:51 avilo wrote:On March 04 2012 01:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:55 SeaSwift wrote:On March 04 2012 00:54 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:01 SeaSwift wrote:
For fuck's sake, if you aren't a pro, any percieved imbalance at your level of play can be overcome by just playing better instead of whining on forums. End of story. Unless the game is completely broken and imbalanced to the point of being unplayable, eg the 10 damage per shot Marine, you are not affected by balance. The problem is when you have to play twice as good as your opponent and still barely beat him in standard macro game eg: TvP. Of course, that might be problem. And we can know this to be true because... you said so. I've seen posts from players like BeastyQT and Cloud basically saying the same thing, strelok just yesterday was telling on his stream how you just need to be better much better then the protoss to win playing completely standard. Why do you think no foreign Terran has won a major tournament in 1.5 years. It's completely true. Right now TvP is in shambles, it's past the point of "Terrans figuring it out." There blatantly is a p>t balance problem right now for many, many reasons. A lot of people like to pretend all is fine and hunky dory, but it's sadly not right now. The question is, is blizzard not fixing lategame TvP right now (lategame tvz not much better) because they are waiting for HOTS to magically fix it? Or are they simply just taking their good old time? You do in fact have to play much, much better than the protoss player to win lategame TvP right now. Or you have to get lucky/diceroll with medivac drops, but that rarely works nowadays. As for T all-ins, all of them were patched into oblivion, none of the protoss related gateway allins, stargate+gateway or robo+gateway allins were patched at all, which makes the match-up even more difficult for Terrans because you either are playing against a dice roll or you are playing a straight up macro game with a disadvantage due to the balance of the match-up lategame right now. It'll be interesting to see what blizzard is doing right now to address the obvious problem. Yes, it is a problem. what a terrible post. you're too busy whining about an 5 second build time nerf for barracks to remember warpgate/blink/void ray etc nerfs, aren't you. you shouldn't post here ever again with such blatant misinformative crap. also not like terran 1-base allins aren't still infinite times better than any of the other 2 races' and i don't really remember any patch touching them directly to a significant degree, besides that 5 second nerf or maybe a onebase ghost rush I just want to point something out about Terran/Protoss 1 base all-ins in TvP: All-ins Terran has to worry about: -4 Gate -3 Gate Blink Stalker (Into 4 Gate) -3 Gate VoidRay -4 Gate VoidRay -4 Gate Warp Prism -3 Gate Immortal Bust -DT Drop All-ins Protoss has to worry about: -1-1-1 -Marine Stim/Combat +1 Medivac timing Even if I missed 1 or 2 Terran all-ins and unfairly added Protoss all-ins, there are still clearly many more all-ins the Terran has to worry about. Each one you HAVE to be prepared for in different ways or else the all-in will do enough damage to warrant the attack. It gets even worse when it's 2-base... No, Terran all-ins aren't "infinite" times better than other races either. Anyways, stop bashing pointlessly. Avilo is a high GM player on a good team. He knows what he's talking about.
lol, dude. you distinguish all these 4gate versions (btw i challenge you to show me games of your every allin from gsl... i'm not sure most of those happened at all, even unsuccessful)
then you say 1-1-1 which has like 10 different versions, leave out ghost rush, supply drop rush, 2rax, blueflame drop, helion/marauder, etc etc. too biased.
i'd understand if you whine about protoss lategame (it's not as bad as you guys make it sound, but definitely protoss favored after a point i agree), but rly early game allins? 90% of those only could work if the terran goes cc first, in the 1base allin race vs race fight terran is definitely heads above zerg and protoss... i mean come on, it wasn't that long ago when like every protoss was 1-1-1'd out of the gsl, and it still doesn't have a safe counter build, and mention 3 versions of 4gate which are easily held with 1-2 bunkers and scv repair. or is it frustration from ladder?
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On March 05 2012 10:03 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 09:24 msjakofsky wrote:On March 05 2012 00:41 Dalavita wrote:
The better players chose terran, because of the BW heritage, and protoss players improved at a slower rate compared to the other races because of the ease of the race. There are examples that stand out, but at this stage, most of the top tier protosses are significantly worse than their zerg/terran buddies. A recent example is the Genius vs DRG finals where Genius was outskilled by quite a bit by his opponent, or even Inca vs Nestea. I can't think of one terran or zerg who reached the GSL finals who wasn't a top tier beast. you're so full of male cattle excrement... implying that top, rain, july, losira are much better players than genius or mc. that one sentence made your opinion invalid and mkp cheesing in 90% of his games in open season 2. he became a legit player but he literally cheesed in almost every game. also comparing genius to inca. lol genius had a ridiculously hard road to the finals. your bias is so strong and irrational that it makes your opinion hard to take seriously Top is an amazing player, and so is Losira. I don't even remember the rain GSL run so I'll give you that one, and July played a style of zerg that fit extremely well with the metagame when he got to the GSL finals by being stupid aggressive and busting terrans down when everyone else were playing passively. Also, I haven't mentioned MC. He's one of the few protosses who got respectable top tier skills. Genius is my textbook definition of a mediocre protoss protossing his way to the finals. MKP has always ALWAYS been a top tier player. I don't care if he cheeses his way to a finals as long as he's actually skilled at the game. He would have gotten to the finals regardless of cheese or macro games and the only reason he lost against Nestea was because he choked hard. + Show Spoiler +You like the male cattle excrement don't you? OM NOM NOM
I´d like to point out that the "mediocre" protoss beat the "respectable" protoss 3-0.
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