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On March 04 2012 21:09 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 20:00 Biggun69 wrote:On March 04 2012 09:52 Faust852 wrote:On March 04 2012 08:17 Vond wrote:On March 04 2012 02:57 hzflank wrote:On March 04 2012 02:54 Kukaracha wrote:On March 04 2012 02:42 Doublemint wrote:On March 04 2012 01:55 Kukaracha wrote:Still, David Kim agrees with ChaosTerran : That said, we have noticed that terran at lower skill levels are underperforming a bit, especially vs. zerg and somewhat vs. protoss. We suspect that the initial complexity of the terran race may be a contributing factor to this, so internally, we’re experimenting with moving some of the new terran units around to make terran slightly more intuitive to play — at lower levels only. That is quite some stretch, going from "the initial complexity of the terran race may be a contributing factor" to "terran is the hardest race to play"... I mean it´s definitely not easy, but the other races are way easier? Give me a break. Blob vs Blob I agree that terran is more likely to lose at lower levels, since what happens - stimpack and at best focus important units, the one who ,willingly or not, got the better position/more or better stuff will win, but up to this point many things can and should happen in my opinion, I don´t think some silver guys(Z or P) will be able to defend 1 drop + an attack at the front - same very standard game situation yet that´s where the strenght of T lies. I don´t fully buy that argument. It's not really that it's harder, but that it's less intuitive and more APM dependant than the other two races. Which isn't a problem past Diamond level, but is a problem in the lower leagues. In any way, David Kim himself is more on the side of "Terran is difficult to use" than the side of "lower-league Terrans are bad". My SC2Gears sows that Zerg players have by far the highest APM, followed by terran and then protoss. I really wish people would stop saying that terran is the hardest race to play with no evidence to back it up. Also, APM/mechanics are not the only thing that makes a race hard. Same for me. I'm plat and at an average of 150apm with 110eapm in sc2gears. My ZvZ opponents usually have 100-150apm with decent eapm while in ZvP and ZvT I face 99% people with 50-90apm and up to 50 eapm. The difference is quite huge, and I'm not sure why that is. I bring up eapm just to point out it's not spamming. Zergs increase their APM by spaming right-clic move with their zerglings for exemple, they need to be more active with their population where Terran and Protoss need to be more passive and camp. But when you look at the APM in fight, like TvZ, you will see the terran with a lot more APM than the Zerg, because the zerg doesn't need to micro his units, it's more based on positioning where the terran needs to spit his marines, kites, etc. And I'm not saying that zerg his easier than terran, it's just the game design. After the fight, you will see the zerg rockets with his APM due to the repop. Well, you still need to micro your units forward / make sure units are spread and dont clump in one place. But good zergs are remaxing DURING the battle, not after. Same thing with terran while they micro. And no, spamming right click is not going to increase your apm by much. Mainly macro will increase your apm. No, spamming right click is the best way to inflate your APM.
that's just not true. You only press one key with right clicking. If you do spams on your keyboard or on your keyboard + mouse combined, you will have more APM, as you are using more fingers simultanously.
But I really don't want to get into that argument. It's ridicolous how some people try make their race look "harder" by using APM as measure. As it has been pointed out, high APM often come from spam commands, but thinking about army movement, kiting, stacking units, worker micro in the beginning, optimally using abilities that are on cooldown/that barely don't have enough energy to be used, producing units... those spam actions are often what makes the difference between a good and a better player.
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On March 04 2012 21:13 Saethwyr wrote:
I do love some of these comments, Protoss finally overtakes Terran (and Zerg internationally) for 1month! just 1! That means March, April, May, June, July, August, September October, November(ish) December and January having the lowest winrate.
Then Feb they just nick it and its:
"Shit something needs to be done about protoss" "This has been happening for too long" "Can anyone say protoss isn't overpowered!?" "Hopefully Blizzard does something soon" "Protoss has always been overpowered, its just taken this long for them to figure it out".
I truly believe this game is as balanced as its ever been, and it is a lot more balanced than a lot of other games. Can anyone genuinely say a pro player won a match because of the race they play?
Protoss' refine their playstyle, work out builds, study the matchups and win more of their matches so they finally get an edge that Z+T haven't worked out yet (for one month); and people instantly call foul play? Bit unfair on the Protoss pro's isn't it?
Getting buffed because their top players are worse than the opposition helps out as well.
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On March 04 2012 21:29 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 21:13 Saethwyr wrote:
I do love some of these comments, Protoss finally overtakes Terran (and Zerg internationally) for 1month! just 1! That means March, April, May, June, July, August, September October, November(ish) December and January having the lowest winrate.
Then Feb they just nick it and its:
"Shit something needs to be done about protoss" "This has been happening for too long" "Can anyone say protoss isn't overpowered!?" "Hopefully Blizzard does something soon" "Protoss has always been overpowered, its just taken this long for them to figure it out".
I truly believe this game is as balanced as its ever been, and it is a lot more balanced than a lot of other games. Can anyone genuinely say a pro player won a match because of the race they play?
Protoss' refine their playstyle, work out builds, study the matchups and win more of their matches so they finally get an edge that Z+T haven't worked out yet (for one month); and people instantly call foul play? Bit unfair on the Protoss pro's isn't it? Getting buffed because their top players are worse than the opposition helps out as well.
Getting buffed because their top players performed worse than the opposition helps out as well.
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On March 04 2012 21:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 21:29 Dalavita wrote:On March 04 2012 21:13 Saethwyr wrote:
I do love some of these comments, Protoss finally overtakes Terran (and Zerg internationally) for 1month! just 1! That means March, April, May, June, July, August, September October, November(ish) December and January having the lowest winrate.
Then Feb they just nick it and its:
"Shit something needs to be done about protoss" "This has been happening for too long" "Can anyone say protoss isn't overpowered!?" "Hopefully Blizzard does something soon" "Protoss has always been overpowered, its just taken this long for them to figure it out".
I truly believe this game is as balanced as its ever been, and it is a lot more balanced than a lot of other games. Can anyone genuinely say a pro player won a match because of the race they play?
Protoss' refine their playstyle, work out builds, study the matchups and win more of their matches so they finally get an edge that Z+T haven't worked out yet (for one month); and people instantly call foul play? Bit unfair on the Protoss pro's isn't it? Getting buffed because their top players are worse than the opposition helps out as well. Getting buffed because their top players performed worse than the opposition helps out as well.
Nah he's right, "Terran players are just better."
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On March 04 2012 21:13 Saethwyr wrote:
I do love some of these comments, Protoss finally overtakes Terran (and Zerg internationally) for 1month! just 1! That means March, April, May, June, July, August, September October, November(ish) December and January having the lowest winrate.
Then Feb they just nick it and its:
"Shit something needs to be done about protoss" "This has been happening for too long" "Can anyone say protoss isn't overpowered!?" "Hopefully Blizzard does something soon" "Protoss has always been overpowered, its just taken this long for them to figure it out".
I truly believe this game is as balanced as its ever been, and it is a lot more balanced than a lot of other games. Can anyone genuinely say a pro player won a match because of the race they play?
Protoss' refine their playstyle, work out builds, study the matchups and win more of their matches so they finally get an edge that Z+T haven't worked out yet (for one month); and people instantly call foul play? Bit unfair on the Protoss pro's isn't it?
If Protoss remain top of winrates for 11 months I will take back everything I say of course
Protoss design will always make them feel overpower, and they will always be overpower in certain situation (I can teleport unit wherever I want, so I don't care about the map and whatever, I have a high tech unit that negate any ground unit but get negate by air unit, I have force field but the worst t1 unit in the game because if I had both I would be OP).
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On March 04 2012 21:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 21:29 Dalavita wrote:On March 04 2012 21:13 Saethwyr wrote:
I do love some of these comments, Protoss finally overtakes Terran (and Zerg internationally) for 1month! just 1! That means March, April, May, June, July, August, September October, November(ish) December and January having the lowest winrate.
Then Feb they just nick it and its:
"Shit something needs to be done about protoss" "This has been happening for too long" "Can anyone say protoss isn't overpowered!?" "Hopefully Blizzard does something soon" "Protoss has always been overpowered, its just taken this long for them to figure it out".
I truly believe this game is as balanced as its ever been, and it is a lot more balanced than a lot of other games. Can anyone genuinely say a pro player won a match because of the race they play?
Protoss' refine their playstyle, work out builds, study the matchups and win more of their matches so they finally get an edge that Z+T haven't worked out yet (for one month); and people instantly call foul play? Bit unfair on the Protoss pro's isn't it? Getting buffed because their top players are worse than the opposition helps out as well. Getting buffed because their top players performed worse than the opposition helps out as well.
When after a year of practicing protoss players still can't split their HTs to avoid them getting EMP'd, I'm willing to consider it player error rather than race issues.
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On March 04 2012 21:53 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 21:34 Big J wrote:On March 04 2012 21:29 Dalavita wrote:On March 04 2012 21:13 Saethwyr wrote:
I do love some of these comments, Protoss finally overtakes Terran (and Zerg internationally) for 1month! just 1! That means March, April, May, June, July, August, September October, November(ish) December and January having the lowest winrate.
Then Feb they just nick it and its:
"Shit something needs to be done about protoss" "This has been happening for too long" "Can anyone say protoss isn't overpowered!?" "Hopefully Blizzard does something soon" "Protoss has always been overpowered, its just taken this long for them to figure it out".
I truly believe this game is as balanced as its ever been, and it is a lot more balanced than a lot of other games. Can anyone genuinely say a pro player won a match because of the race they play?
Protoss' refine their playstyle, work out builds, study the matchups and win more of their matches so they finally get an edge that Z+T haven't worked out yet (for one month); and people instantly call foul play? Bit unfair on the Protoss pro's isn't it? Getting buffed because their top players are worse than the opposition helps out as well. Getting buffed because their top players performed worse than the opposition helps out as well. When after a year of practicing protoss players still can't split their HTs to avoid them getting EMP'd, I'm willing to consider it player error rather than race issues.
You are right, every single protoss pro player has his HTs clumped together.
Your argument is so illogical it hurts my brain. If protoss is simply overpowered and all the players are bad, why doesn´t a pro terran or zerg players just switch and win all the tournaments?
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On March 04 2012 21:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 21:09 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 20:00 Biggun69 wrote:On March 04 2012 09:52 Faust852 wrote:On March 04 2012 08:17 Vond wrote:On March 04 2012 02:57 hzflank wrote:On March 04 2012 02:54 Kukaracha wrote:On March 04 2012 02:42 Doublemint wrote:On March 04 2012 01:55 Kukaracha wrote:Still, David Kim agrees with ChaosTerran : That said, we have noticed that terran at lower skill levels are underperforming a bit, especially vs. zerg and somewhat vs. protoss. We suspect that the initial complexity of the terran race may be a contributing factor to this, so internally, we’re experimenting with moving some of the new terran units around to make terran slightly more intuitive to play — at lower levels only. That is quite some stretch, going from "the initial complexity of the terran race may be a contributing factor" to "terran is the hardest race to play"... I mean it´s definitely not easy, but the other races are way easier? Give me a break. Blob vs Blob I agree that terran is more likely to lose at lower levels, since what happens - stimpack and at best focus important units, the one who ,willingly or not, got the better position/more or better stuff will win, but up to this point many things can and should happen in my opinion, I don´t think some silver guys(Z or P) will be able to defend 1 drop + an attack at the front - same very standard game situation yet that´s where the strenght of T lies. I don´t fully buy that argument. It's not really that it's harder, but that it's less intuitive and more APM dependant than the other two races. Which isn't a problem past Diamond level, but is a problem in the lower leagues. In any way, David Kim himself is more on the side of "Terran is difficult to use" than the side of "lower-league Terrans are bad". My SC2Gears sows that Zerg players have by far the highest APM, followed by terran and then protoss. I really wish people would stop saying that terran is the hardest race to play with no evidence to back it up. Also, APM/mechanics are not the only thing that makes a race hard. Same for me. I'm plat and at an average of 150apm with 110eapm in sc2gears. My ZvZ opponents usually have 100-150apm with decent eapm while in ZvP and ZvT I face 99% people with 50-90apm and up to 50 eapm. The difference is quite huge, and I'm not sure why that is. I bring up eapm just to point out it's not spamming. Zergs increase their APM by spaming right-clic move with their zerglings for exemple, they need to be more active with their population where Terran and Protoss need to be more passive and camp. But when you look at the APM in fight, like TvZ, you will see the terran with a lot more APM than the Zerg, because the zerg doesn't need to micro his units, it's more based on positioning where the terran needs to spit his marines, kites, etc. And I'm not saying that zerg his easier than terran, it's just the game design. After the fight, you will see the zerg rockets with his APM due to the repop. Well, you still need to micro your units forward / make sure units are spread and dont clump in one place. But good zergs are remaxing DURING the battle, not after. Same thing with terran while they micro. And no, spamming right click is not going to increase your apm by much. Mainly macro will increase your apm. No, spamming right click is the best way to inflate your APM. that's just not true. You only press one key with right clicking. If you do spams on your keyboard or on your keyboard + mouse combined, you will have more APM, as you are using more fingers simultanously. But I really don't want to get into that argument. It's ridicolous how some people try make their race look "harder" by using APM as measure. As it has been pointed out, high APM often come from spam commands, but thinking about army movement, kiting, stacking units, worker micro in the beginning, optimally using abilities that are on cooldown/that barely don't have enough energy to be used, producing units... those spam actions are often what makes the difference between a good and a better player.
Yeah, I don't care about that debate aswell. But it's very easy to spam 10+ clicks on almost the same exact location, really fast, without any thought. When I was a scrub I used to spam click all the time to inflate my APM so everybody could see how amazing my APM was, and really it doubled like my average APM. I've stopped doing it ofcourse because it's not efficient, but spam clicking is really effective way to inflate your APM.
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On March 04 2012 21:53 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 21:34 Big J wrote:On March 04 2012 21:29 Dalavita wrote:On March 04 2012 21:13 Saethwyr wrote:
I do love some of these comments, Protoss finally overtakes Terran (and Zerg internationally) for 1month! just 1! That means March, April, May, June, July, August, September October, November(ish) December and January having the lowest winrate.
Then Feb they just nick it and its:
"Shit something needs to be done about protoss" "This has been happening for too long" "Can anyone say protoss isn't overpowered!?" "Hopefully Blizzard does something soon" "Protoss has always been overpowered, its just taken this long for them to figure it out".
I truly believe this game is as balanced as its ever been, and it is a lot more balanced than a lot of other games. Can anyone genuinely say a pro player won a match because of the race they play?
Protoss' refine their playstyle, work out builds, study the matchups and win more of their matches so they finally get an edge that Z+T haven't worked out yet (for one month); and people instantly call foul play? Bit unfair on the Protoss pro's isn't it? Getting buffed because their top players are worse than the opposition helps out as well. Getting buffed because their top players performed worse than the opposition helps out as well. When after a year of practicing protoss players still can't split their HTs to avoid them getting EMP'd, I'm willing to consider it player error rather than race issues.
you're such a hypocrite... In the other thread where you were showing me games of zerg players beating mass ghosts, I was pointing out that ogsFin/Forgg and Thorzain made a mistake and didn't split or cloak their ghosts and then the ghosts got killed by fungals and banelings, your answer was:
On February 24 2012 09:46 Dalavita wrote:
Suddenly, a flood of excuses.
Expected no more from you.
Games are defined by who makes mistakes and who doesn't.
So in conclusion: if I point out that a Terran lost with mass ghosts due to a mistake, it's what defines games; if you point out that a protoss made a mistake, it's something that should not be accounted for balance...
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the justice won once again
in ROG
in MLG
in GSL
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On March 04 2012 22:02 Hakanfrog wrote:
You are right, every single protoss pro player has his HTs clumped together.
Your argument is so illogical it hurts my brain. If protoss is simply overpowered and all the players are bad, why doesn´t a pro terran or zerg players just switch and win all the tournaments?
This was pretty much the case in every TvP GSL since Terrans started using ghosts. Just a clusterfuck of protosses having everything clumped up and getting all their shit EMP'd. This didn't result in protosses learning to split their units, but rather EMP being nerfed. As for why terrans don't switch races. I don't know, ask them?
On March 04 2012 22:11 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 21:53 Dalavita wrote:On March 04 2012 21:34 Big J wrote:On March 04 2012 21:29 Dalavita wrote:On March 04 2012 21:13 Saethwyr wrote:
I do love some of these comments, Protoss finally overtakes Terran (and Zerg internationally) for 1month! just 1! That means March, April, May, June, July, August, September October, November(ish) December and January having the lowest winrate.
Then Feb they just nick it and its:
"Shit something needs to be done about protoss" "This has been happening for too long" "Can anyone say protoss isn't overpowered!?" "Hopefully Blizzard does something soon" "Protoss has always been overpowered, its just taken this long for them to figure it out".
I truly believe this game is as balanced as its ever been, and it is a lot more balanced than a lot of other games. Can anyone genuinely say a pro player won a match because of the race they play?
Protoss' refine their playstyle, work out builds, study the matchups and win more of their matches so they finally get an edge that Z+T haven't worked out yet (for one month); and people instantly call foul play? Bit unfair on the Protoss pro's isn't it? Getting buffed because their top players are worse than the opposition helps out as well. Getting buffed because their top players performed worse than the opposition helps out as well. When after a year of practicing protoss players still can't split their HTs to avoid them getting EMP'd, I'm willing to consider it player error rather than race issues. you're such a hypocrite... In the other thread where you were showing me games of zerg players beating mass ghosts, I was pointing out that ogsFin/Forgg and Thorzain made a mistake and didn't split or cloak their ghosts and then the ghosts got killed by fungals and banelings, your answer was: Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 09:46 Dalavita wrote:
Suddenly, a flood of excuses.
Expected no more from you.
Games are defined by who makes mistakes and who doesn't. So in conclusion: if I point out that a Terran lost with mass ghosts due to a mistake, it's what defines games; if you point out that a protoss made a mistake, it's something that should not be accounted for balance...
Uhm, what? If you have arguments you need to be consequent with them all. If I claim that people playing badly is what causes them to lose, then yes, it shouldn't be accounted for in balance.
If terrans lose with mass ghosts it's due to a mistake. Subsequently, if zergs lose to mass ghosts it also means that they made mistakes, and thus no balance change is necessary. This applies to protoss as well. If they can't split their units and get them EMP'd it's their fault and not because the game is imbalanced.
If anything you're the one being the hypocrite by claiming that terrans losing with mass ghosts are doing mistakes while implying that the zergs who lose to a terran using mass ghosts clearly have no answer and were playing perfectly, since you're ok with the snipe nerf. Thank you for pointing out your own flaws.
And to stay a bit on topic with the current protoss discussion. I actually agreed with the EMP nerf, and most of the terran nerfs. It still doesn't mean that protosses weren't being carried by the ease of their race and thus fell behind as far as actual skill levels went, i.e the army clumping syndrome.
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@Dalavita (cba to fix quotes)
As for why terrans don't switch races. I don't know, ask them?
There is no reason, one might argue that they don´t want to switch race or whatever. But with so much money on the line atleast one of them should have done it by now. Claiming that all the terran players are simply better at the game is fucking retarded. It is so extremely unlikely that it is ridiculous to suggest it. If it is as you seem to be implying, that it is easier to succeed as protoss several players would switch to win money easier, but this obviously isn´t the case. I actually haven´t heard of a single pro gamer switching races to protoss.
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Looks like I need to all-in more pvz.
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On March 04 2012 23:55 Hakanfrog wrote:
@Dalavita (cba to fix quotes)
As for why terrans don't switch races. I don't know, ask them?
There is no reason, one might argue that they don´t want to switch race or whatever. But with so much money on the line atleast one of them should have done it by now. Claiming that all the terran players are simply better at the game is fucking retarded. It is so extremely unlikely that it is ridiculous to suggest it. If it is as you seem to be implying, that it is easier to succeed as protoss several players would switch to win money easier, but this obviously isn´t the case. I actually haven´t heard of a single pro gamer switching races to protoss.
Statistical probability doesn't mean a thing in the absolute top levels of play that's consistently determined by the same 20-30 people. If someone is good and plays race X, that race will have the better win rates on average. Arguing anything but the fact that terrans have the highest amount of pros, i.e the guys who smash on other pro's like they were amateurs, is lying to yourself at this stage. I haven't claimed that all terrans are better at the game, rather than just about every top level protoss is worse in comparison because of the ease of the race. There are two, max three protosses that can contend with the rest of the terrans and zergs at the top level. The rest are on a lower level, but can play at around the same competitive level because of the race.
However because of this, when it comes to doing things like splitting HTs or staggering them so they won't get EMP'd, they don't do it, and subsequently get killed. This is reflected in the win percentages, and the race gets buffed/the opposite race gets nerfed. The snipe or thor change is probably the best example of Blizzard catering to worse players. The thor energy nerf happened because of one tournament, and the snipe change happened after MVP and pretty much MVP alone did it in GSL to kill brood lords a couple of times.
If people would be switching races after the flavor of the month, the one time everyone would be doing it is when the game was released as well, when zergs and protosses were getting destroyed. This didn't happen either. Maybe the difficulty difference isn't that big, or maybe they believe that Blizzard will eventually even things out, or maybe they like their race, which goes especially for korean terran players who have BW backgrounds with BW legends mostly being terran.
Besides. If someone is doing well, I don't see why they should switch to another race, even if it was easier, since I assume the pros you were wondering about were the GSL Code S terrans.
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On March 04 2012 23:38 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 22:02 Hakanfrog wrote:
You are right, every single protoss pro player has his HTs clumped together.
Your argument is so illogical it hurts my brain. If protoss is simply overpowered and all the players are bad, why doesn´t a pro terran or zerg players just switch and win all the tournaments? This was pretty much the case in every TvP GSL since Terrans started using ghosts. Just a clusterfuck of protosses having everything clumped up and getting all their shit EMP'd. This didn't result in protosses learning to split their units, but rather EMP being nerfed. As for why terrans don't switch races. I don't know, ask them? Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 22:11 Big J wrote:On March 04 2012 21:53 Dalavita wrote:On March 04 2012 21:34 Big J wrote:On March 04 2012 21:29 Dalavita wrote:On March 04 2012 21:13 Saethwyr wrote:
I do love some of these comments, Protoss finally overtakes Terran (and Zerg internationally) for 1month! just 1! That means March, April, May, June, July, August, September October, November(ish) December and January having the lowest winrate.
Then Feb they just nick it and its:
"Shit something needs to be done about protoss" "This has been happening for too long" "Can anyone say protoss isn't overpowered!?" "Hopefully Blizzard does something soon" "Protoss has always been overpowered, its just taken this long for them to figure it out".
I truly believe this game is as balanced as its ever been, and it is a lot more balanced than a lot of other games. Can anyone genuinely say a pro player won a match because of the race they play?
Protoss' refine their playstyle, work out builds, study the matchups and win more of their matches so they finally get an edge that Z+T haven't worked out yet (for one month); and people instantly call foul play? Bit unfair on the Protoss pro's isn't it? Getting buffed because their top players are worse than the opposition helps out as well. Getting buffed because their top players performed worse than the opposition helps out as well. When after a year of practicing protoss players still can't split their HTs to avoid them getting EMP'd, I'm willing to consider it player error rather than race issues. you're such a hypocrite... In the other thread where you were showing me games of zerg players beating mass ghosts, I was pointing out that ogsFin/Forgg and Thorzain made a mistake and didn't split or cloak their ghosts and then the ghosts got killed by fungals and banelings, your answer was: On February 24 2012 09:46 Dalavita wrote:
Suddenly, a flood of excuses.
Expected no more from you.
Games are defined by who makes mistakes and who doesn't. So in conclusion: if I point out that a Terran lost with mass ghosts due to a mistake, it's what defines games; if you point out that a protoss made a mistake, it's something that should not be accounted for balance... Uhm, what? If you have arguments you need to be consequent with them all. If I claim that people playing badly is what causes them to lose, then yes, it shouldn't be accounted for in balance. If terrans lose with mass ghosts it's due to a mistake. Subsequently, if zergs lose to mass ghosts it also means that they made mistakes, and thus no balance change is necessary. This applies to protoss as well. If they can't split their units and get them EMP'd it's their fault and not because the game is imbalanced. If anything you're the one being the hypocrite by claiming that terrans losing with mass ghosts are doing mistakes while implying that the zergs who lose to a terran using mass ghosts clearly have no answer and were playing perfectly, since you're ok with the snipe nerf. Thank you for pointing out your own flaws.
lol, after being a hypocrite, you are now trying to strawman me. You know, it's quite funny from my perspective, because I know that you know from all the discussion that we have had, that I was not thinking that the snipe nerf was needed. It's really poor of you to make it sound as if I were, while I have said noumerous times that such a huge nerf was not necessary.
And no, I never ever went close to implying zergs were playing perfectly. That's just a made up thing so that you have something to support your straw man. If anything, by giving in and saying that I count the Thorzain vs Stephano game as a game in which Zerg countered a Terran that had mass ghosts , I was implying that I think it is quite OK for both sides to make mistakes.
Also why would it be a subsequence of Terran losing with mass ghosts to Zerg being a mistake, that Zerg losing to mass ghosts is a mistake as well. You really should check your logic.
Funny example of that kind of "logic": If a car driver fails to run you over, it's the cardrivers mistake. If the cardriver succeeds in driving you over, it's your mistake... lol
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Well if the race is so easy than a task such as splitting HTs should be no problem at all. We almost never see high level protoss players not splitting HTs, some even use warp prisms which is even harder to micro. You still have no proof that protoss is simply better than terran and zerg, it is just your own opinion yet you state it as a fact.
Are you saying that the bad players chose protoss, or that the protoss race made the players bad?
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On March 05 2012 00:14 IdrA wrote:
isnt that amazing
Hahahahahahahaha. I always love your comments 
Was Zerg always underperforming though? Perhaps compared to Terran, but not always compared to Protoss, right?
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On March 04 2012 23:55 Hakanfrog wrote:
@Dalavita (cba to fix quotes)
As for why terrans don't switch races. I don't know, ask them?
There is no reason, one might argue that they don´t want to switch race or whatever. But with so much money on the line atleast one of them should have done it by now. Claiming that all the terran players are simply better at the game is fucking retarded. It is so extremely unlikely that it is ridiculous to suggest it. If it is as you seem to be implying, that it is easier to succeed as protoss several players would switch to win money easier, but this obviously isn´t the case. I actually haven´t heard of a single pro gamer switching races to protoss.
Switch race is really hard, your argument is sensless. Pros had played thousand of games with Terran and noone with Protoss. This is stupid to become much weaker and lose all tournament by switching race because he can't compete at the same level.
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On March 05 2012 00:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 23:38 Dalavita wrote:On March 04 2012 22:02 Hakanfrog wrote:
You are right, every single protoss pro player has his HTs clumped together.
Your argument is so illogical it hurts my brain. If protoss is simply overpowered and all the players are bad, why doesn´t a pro terran or zerg players just switch and win all the tournaments? This was pretty much the case in every TvP GSL since Terrans started using ghosts. Just a clusterfuck of protosses having everything clumped up and getting all their shit EMP'd. This didn't result in protosses learning to split their units, but rather EMP being nerfed. As for why terrans don't switch races. I don't know, ask them? On March 04 2012 22:11 Big J wrote:On March 04 2012 21:53 Dalavita wrote:On March 04 2012 21:34 Big J wrote:On March 04 2012 21:29 Dalavita wrote:On March 04 2012 21:13 Saethwyr wrote:
I do love some of these comments, Protoss finally overtakes Terran (and Zerg internationally) for 1month! just 1! That means March, April, May, June, July, August, September October, November(ish) December and January having the lowest winrate.
Then Feb they just nick it and its:
"Shit something needs to be done about protoss" "This has been happening for too long" "Can anyone say protoss isn't overpowered!?" "Hopefully Blizzard does something soon" "Protoss has always been overpowered, its just taken this long for them to figure it out".
I truly believe this game is as balanced as its ever been, and it is a lot more balanced than a lot of other games. Can anyone genuinely say a pro player won a match because of the race they play?
Protoss' refine their playstyle, work out builds, study the matchups and win more of their matches so they finally get an edge that Z+T haven't worked out yet (for one month); and people instantly call foul play? Bit unfair on the Protoss pro's isn't it? Getting buffed because their top players are worse than the opposition helps out as well. Getting buffed because their top players performed worse than the opposition helps out as well. When after a year of practicing protoss players still can't split their HTs to avoid them getting EMP'd, I'm willing to consider it player error rather than race issues. you're such a hypocrite... In the other thread where you were showing me games of zerg players beating mass ghosts, I was pointing out that ogsFin/Forgg and Thorzain made a mistake and didn't split or cloak their ghosts and then the ghosts got killed by fungals and banelings, your answer was: On February 24 2012 09:46 Dalavita wrote:
Suddenly, a flood of excuses.
Expected no more from you.
Games are defined by who makes mistakes and who doesn't. So in conclusion: if I point out that a Terran lost with mass ghosts due to a mistake, it's what defines games; if you point out that a protoss made a mistake, it's something that should not be accounted for balance... Uhm, what? If you have arguments you need to be consequent with them all. If I claim that people playing badly is what causes them to lose, then yes, it shouldn't be accounted for in balance. If terrans lose with mass ghosts it's due to a mistake. Subsequently, if zergs lose to mass ghosts it also means that they made mistakes, and thus no balance change is necessary. This applies to protoss as well. If they can't split their units and get them EMP'd it's their fault and not because the game is imbalanced. If anything you're the one being the hypocrite by claiming that terrans losing with mass ghosts are doing mistakes while implying that the zergs who lose to a terran using mass ghosts clearly have no answer and were playing perfectly, since you're ok with the snipe nerf. Thank you for pointing out your own flaws. lol, after being a hypocrite, you are now trying to strawman me. You know, it's quite funny from my perspective, because I know that you know from all the discussion that we have had, that I was not thinking that the snipe nerf was needed. It's really poor of you to make it sound as if I were, while I have said noumerous times that such a huge nerf was not necessary. And no, I never ever went close to implying zergs were playing perfectly. That's just a made up thing so that you have something to support your straw man. If anything, by giving in and saying that I count the Thorzain vs Stephano game as a game in which Zerg countered a Terran that had mass ghosts , I was implying that I think it is quite OK for both sides to make mistakes. Also why would it be a subsequence of Terran losing with mass ghosts to Zerg being a mistake, that Zerg losing to mass ghosts is a mistake as well. You really should check your logic. Funny example of that kind of "logic": If a car driver fails to run you over, it's the cardrivers mistake. If the cardriver succeeds in driving you over, it's your mistake... lol
I had the impression that you thought the snipe nerf was needed, even if to a lesser degree, which would mean that it was too strong in the matchup in your mind, when there was zero proof of it, but I apologize if that was not the case. But you shouldn't expect me to remember every opinion of every person whom I argue with.
I'm glad you noticed the strawman. It was there the exaggerate the flaw in your thinking. If terrans who lose to zergs make mistakes when they have mass ghosts, zergs must subsequently be doing mistakes to lose to mass ghosts. The reason for this is that we have no proof otherwise. There are very few games played, and the games have gone both ways. The only terran with real success using mass ghosts has been MVP. Not having this stance suggests that you're biased towards one side, which your terrible example shows, where only one occurence of the two alternatives is good one (zerg winning/driver missing vs terran winning/driver hitting the pedestrian).
On March 05 2012 00:27 Hakanfrog wrote:
Well if the race is so easy than a task such as splitting HTs should be no problem at all. We almost never see high level protoss players not splitting HTs, some even use warp prisms which is even harder to micro. You still have no proof that protoss is simply better than terran and zerg, it is just your own opinion yet you state it as a fact.
Were we watching the same games? Protoss players were struggling with splitting HTs and their armies up until the EMP nerf hit. Hell, you could even argue that the EMP radius nerf has made it so foolproof that you can't clump up your HT's by negligence to get them all hit anymore.
Edit: Also, no shit it's my opinion. Do you want a disclaimer?
On March 05 2012 00:27 Hakanfrog wrote:
Are you saying that the bad players chose protoss, or that the protoss race made the players bad?
The better players chose terran, because of the BW heritage, and protoss players improved at a slower rate compared to the other races because of the ease of the race. There are examples that stand out, but at this stage, most of the top tier protosses are significantly worse than their zerg/terran buddies. A recent example is the Genius vs DRG finals where Genius was outskilled by quite a bit by his opponent, or even Inca vs Nestea. I can't think of one terran or zerg who reached the GSL finals who wasn't a top tier beast.
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EPT
