|
@Dalavita
Were you watching the same finals as I did?
One game he went for carriers for whatever reason, he then did a stupid all in for another weird reason, the two games he won he actually played great. I think he played well on Crossfire aswell, but it´s Crossfire -.-
His road to the finals has not been easy, on the way he beat: DRG, SC, Nestea, MKP, MC and Alive. If any protoss deserved to be in the finals, its him. How would he even reach the finals if he wasn´t good. I´m just going to stop arguing with you now since you base all your arguments that protoss is easier and the protoss players are worse without backing it up with any evidence whatsoever.
I didn´t watch much GSL last year btw so if you say protoss players never split their hts im gonna have to take your word for it. However from what I have seen from this season several protosses have played at the same level of the best terran and zerg players.
|
It's a good month to be on the balance team.
|
congrats to all protoss players who have succesfully complained their way to sick buffs and now they have higher winrates in every match up!!!! :D
|
On March 02 2012 17:51 Peleus wrote:
As a Zerg, I prefer to argue that we need a buff due to the Korean statistics.
Seriously though, it just goes its hard to even define balance let alone measure it reliably. International says balanced, Korea says otherwise.
It's nice to see the international as balanced as it ever has been though.
Unless you are extremely high international GM, you can't use Korean stats to argue balance. League?
|
So it's pretty obvious that Protoss are doing markedly better in February, with big jumps across the board.
I'm interested if someone can find an exact reasoning for this massive shift within the last month. Protoss have been doing better and better, and we're beginning to hear cries of "toss imba" etc. Was there a pivotal occurrence that caused this? Or is it a slow shift in the meta-game that's occurred over time?
|
On March 05 2012 04:35 Fix637 wrote:
So it's pretty obvious that Protoss are doing markedly better in February, with big jumps across the board.
I'm interested if someone can find an exact reasoning for this massive shift within the last month. Protoss have been doing better and better, and we're beginning to hear cries of "toss imba" etc. Was there a pivotal occurrence that caused this? Or is it a slow shift in the meta-game that's occurred over time?
patch 1.4
|
On March 05 2012 04:35 Fix637 wrote:
So it's pretty obvious that Protoss are doing markedly better in February, with big jumps across the board.
I'm interested if someone can find an exact reasoning for this massive shift within the last month. Protoss have been doing better and better, and we're beginning to hear cries of "toss imba" etc. Was there a pivotal occurrence that caused this? Or is it a slow shift in the meta-game that's occurred over time?
mixture of both. Patch 1.4.0-1.4.3 slowly buffed Protoss and nerfed some of the major XvP units like ghosts and infestors.
That aside, double Forge builds vs Terran and things like zealot+1, blink+2 timings vs Zerg, and more warp prism useage (after the WP buff) had quite an impact on the metagame.
|
All the statistics make sense, except ZvP.
I think the situations is currently much worse, particulary in the lategame, than what the charts are showing.
I haven't yet see a single Protoss beating a lategame bl/corruptors/infestors/mass spine composition without zerg messing up his control to an archon toilet or some other gimmicks..
I saw Genius executing a perfect timing push vs DRG in GSL final g1, just before broodlords.
Sure that was nice, but that's not a long-term solution...
Well, the longterm solution might be hots...
|
On March 05 2012 05:11 SiroKO wrote:
I haven't yet see a single Protoss beating a lategame bl/corruptors/infestors/mass spine composition without zerg messing up his control to an archon toilet or some other gimmicks..
Yeah.. protoss lategame is underpowered. What am I reading?
|
4713 Posts
The +1 immortal range, while it took a while to crystallize in the minds of players, ultimately contributed too to the protoss doing well now.
However I'd like to add one more element that I can't emphasize enough, but had a large impact on balance, the Maps.
Basically, during 2011, the GSL and then other tournaments, slowly started moving away from smaller, more open and terran favored map and towards large, more safe and more macro orientated maps.
Maps like Shattered Temple, Metalopolis, Xel'Naga Caverns that encourage fast and aggressive play, where removed first. Bigger macro maps like Tal'Darim Altar, Shakuras Plateau and Terminus started to be prioritized.
Maps with some form of weird or uni-dimensional features, where then removed too, like Shakuras, because the mid encourages too much split map, Tal"Darim because of the rocks on 3rd and Terminus, because it's basically gives you 2 very easy to defend expansions right of the bat.
A new generation of maps, not made by Blizzard, started to be used, like Daybreak, Bel'Shir Beach, Dualsight etc. Over time even these where tweaked a bit if they had issues, the maps that could be fixed remained, the maps that couldn't be fixed where axed.
Now towards the end of the cycle Blizzard itself has started to adhere more to tournament standards and made much more friendly natural expansions and much less hard to take 3rds and 4ths on their own maps, as well as accepting community made maps and now soon to add GSL maps.
Now, the problem with these newer maps is that. They lean towards macro way, way too much, just like leaning towards too much aggressive features can make some maps unplayable or broken, so can too much defensiveness be a bad thing. Long rush distances, tight chokes, easy to expand to and defend bases make it easier and more profitable to macro, so early aggression starts to get snuffed out more and more. This is the trend I've noticed the most in Season 1 of the GSL from this year.
And the biggest problem though, is that Protoss seems to benefit the most from these defensive map features, allowing them to safely turtle and tech to the ultimate composition. Very boring if you see to many of these situations, and very problematic to prevent with all these features, not to mention how hard it is to stop when it gets going.
In my opinion the better solution was to tweak protoss more to work on more aggressive maps, and without the reliance on superior tech. As is though, the cumulative combination of patches and map trends has lead to this February's results.
|
On March 05 2012 05:19 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 05:11 SiroKO wrote:
I haven't yet see a single Protoss beating a lategame bl/corruptors/infestors/mass spine composition without zerg messing up his control to an archon toilet or some other gimmicks..
Yeah.. protoss lategame is underpowered. What am I reading?
Not what I said.
OP against Terran for sure, but the so called Protoss deathball is definitely overrated and counterd by corruptors/broodlords/infestors spines.
Answer to that composition might be "do not let them go there", as mentionned before, but I don't see it as a viable strat, plus it wouldn't change the fact that Protoss deathball is totally overrated.
|
On March 05 2012 05:21 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 05:19 EmilA wrote:On March 05 2012 05:11 SiroKO wrote:
I haven't yet see a single Protoss beating a lategame bl/corruptors/infestors/mass spine composition without zerg messing up his control to an archon toilet or some other gimmicks..
Yeah.. protoss lategame is underpowered. What am I reading? Not what I said. OP against Terran for sure, but the so called Protoss deathball is definitely overrated and counterd by corruptors/broodlords/infestors spines. Answer to that composition might be "do not let them go there", as mentionned before, but I don't see it as a viable strat, plus it wouldn't change the fact that Protoss deathball is totally overrated.
Archon toilet, have you heard of it? It's quite powerful.
|
On March 05 2012 05:24 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 05:21 SiroKO wrote:On March 05 2012 05:19 EmilA wrote:On March 05 2012 05:11 SiroKO wrote:
I haven't yet see a single Protoss beating a lategame bl/corruptors/infestors/mass spine composition without zerg messing up his control to an archon toilet or some other gimmicks..
Yeah.. protoss lategame is underpowered. What am I reading? Not what I said. OP against Terran for sure, but the so called Protoss deathball is definitely overrated and counterd by corruptors/broodlords/infestors spines. Answer to that composition might be "do not let them go there", as mentionned before, but I don't see it as a viable strat, plus it wouldn't change the fact that Protoss deathball is totally overrated. Archon toilet, have you heard of it? It's quite powerful.
At least read the posts you're quoting, he mentioned that specifically.
|
|
|
On March 05 2012 05:26 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 05:24 hunts wrote:On March 05 2012 05:21 SiroKO wrote:On March 05 2012 05:19 EmilA wrote:On March 05 2012 05:11 SiroKO wrote:
I haven't yet see a single Protoss beating a lategame bl/corruptors/infestors/mass spine composition without zerg messing up his control to an archon toilet or some other gimmicks..
Yeah.. protoss lategame is underpowered. What am I reading? Not what I said. OP against Terran for sure, but the so called Protoss deathball is definitely overrated and counterd by corruptors/broodlords/infestors spines. Answer to that composition might be "do not let them go there", as mentionned before, but I don't see it as a viable strat, plus it wouldn't change the fact that Protoss deathball is totally overrated. Archon toilet, have you heard of it? It's quite powerful. At least read the posts you're quoting, he mentioned that specifically.
Actually it's not mentioned in the post I quoted, perhaps you should read it? All the post says is that the P deathball is "totally overrated."
|
I wanted to write something sarcastic about people disregarding the problems voiced by IdrA and other top zergs in Korea, but then decided that was not a good idea.
Instead I'm just happy I didn't imagine things when watching GSL and believing there was at least some seriousness in the tweets by nestea and so on about how hard ZvP can be. 
As for the "needs PvZ another patch" debate: I think international scene doesn't really matter. Individual mistakes imo are too important at that level. Korean winrates are what is important, if there is a large enough number of games going into it.
Should there be a patch? This really needs more insight and analysis then I can provide, so I guess this question should be left to blizz and the more intelligent pros.
|
On March 05 2012 06:04 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 05:26 Dfgj wrote:On March 05 2012 05:24 hunts wrote:On March 05 2012 05:21 SiroKO wrote:On March 05 2012 05:19 EmilA wrote:On March 05 2012 05:11 SiroKO wrote:
I haven't yet see a single Protoss beating a lategame bl/corruptors/infestors/mass spine composition without zerg messing up his control to an archon toilet or some other gimmicks..
Yeah.. protoss lategame is underpowered. What am I reading? Not what I said. OP against Terran for sure, but the so called Protoss deathball is definitely overrated and counterd by corruptors/broodlords/infestors spines. Answer to that composition might be "do not let them go there", as mentionned before, but I don't see it as a viable strat, plus it wouldn't change the fact that Protoss deathball is totally overrated. Archon toilet, have you heard of it? It's quite powerful. At least read the posts you're quoting, he mentioned that specifically. Actually it's not mentioned in the post I quoted, perhaps you should read it? All the post says is that the P deathball is "totally overrated."
Really?
On March 05 2012 05:11 SiroKO wrote:
I haven't yet see a single Protoss beating a lategame bl/corruptors/infestors/mass spine composition without zerg messing up his control to an archon toilet
On March 05 2012 05:11 SiroKO wrote:
without zerg messing up his control to an archon toilet
On March 05 2012 05:11 SiroKO wrote:
archon toilet, motherfucker, look at me
Read the posts. All of them.
|
Feels good to see Terran FINALLY dropping to the lowest win rate for once.
|
if terran has a 50% win rate on the foreign scene, it means terran is still op considering how far the foreign terran are from the korean ones.
|
On March 05 2012 00:41 Dalavita wrote:
The better players chose terran, because of the BW heritage, and protoss players improved at a slower rate compared to the other races because of the ease of the race. There are examples that stand out, but at this stage, most of the top tier protosses are significantly worse than their zerg/terran buddies. A recent example is the Genius vs DRG finals where Genius was outskilled by quite a bit by his opponent, or even Inca vs Nestea. I can't think of one terran or zerg who reached the GSL finals who wasn't a top tier beast.
you're so full of male cattle excrement... implying that top, rain, july, losira are much better players than genius or mc. that one sentence made your opinion invalid
and mkp cheesing in 90% of his games in open season 2. he became a legit player but he literally cheesed in almost every game.
also comparing genius to inca. lol genius had a ridiculously hard road to the finals.
your bias is so strong and irrational that it makes your opinion hard to take seriously
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
