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On March 05 2012 22:20 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 19:31 Ewic wrote:On March 05 2012 19:09 msjakofsky wrote:On March 05 2012 13:51 avilo wrote:On March 04 2012 01:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:55 SeaSwift wrote:On March 04 2012 00:54 Recognizable wrote:On March 04 2012 00:01 SeaSwift wrote:
For fuck's sake, if you aren't a pro, any percieved imbalance at your level of play can be overcome by just playing better instead of whining on forums. End of story. Unless the game is completely broken and imbalanced to the point of being unplayable, eg the 10 damage per shot Marine, you are not affected by balance. The problem is when you have to play twice as good as your opponent and still barely beat him in standard macro game eg: TvP. Of course, that might be problem. And we can know this to be true because... you said so. I've seen posts from players like BeastyQT and Cloud basically saying the same thing, strelok just yesterday was telling on his stream how you just need to be better much better then the protoss to win playing completely standard. Why do you think no foreign Terran has won a major tournament in 1.5 years. It's completely true. Right now TvP is in shambles, it's past the point of "Terrans figuring it out." There blatantly is a p>t balance problem right now for many, many reasons. A lot of people like to pretend all is fine and hunky dory, but it's sadly not right now. The question is, is blizzard not fixing lategame TvP right now (lategame tvz not much better) because they are waiting for HOTS to magically fix it? Or are they simply just taking their good old time? You do in fact have to play much, much better than the protoss player to win lategame TvP right now. Or you have to get lucky/diceroll with medivac drops, but that rarely works nowadays. As for T all-ins, all of them were patched into oblivion, none of the protoss related gateway allins, stargate+gateway or robo+gateway allins were patched at all, which makes the match-up even more difficult for Terrans because you either are playing against a dice roll or you are playing a straight up macro game with a disadvantage due to the balance of the match-up lategame right now. It'll be interesting to see what blizzard is doing right now to address the obvious problem. Yes, it is a problem. what a terrible post. you're too busy whining about an 5 second build time nerf for barracks to remember warpgate/blink/void ray etc nerfs, aren't you. you shouldn't post here ever again with such blatant misinformative crap. also not like terran 1-base allins aren't still infinite times better than any of the other 2 races' and i don't really remember any patch touching them directly to a significant degree, besides that 5 second nerf or maybe a onebase ghost rush I just want to point something out about Terran/Protoss 1 base all-ins in TvP: All-ins Terran has to worry about: -4 Gate -3 Gate Blink Stalker (Into 4 Gate) -3 Gate VoidRay -4 Gate VoidRay -4 Gate Warp Prism -3 Gate Immortal Bust -DT Drop All-ins Protoss has to worry about: -1-1-1 -Marine Stim/Combat +1 Medivac timing Even if I missed 1 or 2 Terran all-ins and unfairly added Protoss all-ins, there are still clearly many more all-ins the Terran has to worry about. Each one you HAVE to be prepared for in different ways or else the all-in will do enough damage to warrant the attack. It gets even worse when it's 2-base... No, Terran all-ins aren't "infinite" times better than other races either. Anyways, stop bashing pointlessly. Avilo is a high GM player on a good team. He knows what he's talking about. lol, dude. you distinguish all these 4gate versions (btw i challenge you to show me games of your every allin from gsl... i'm not sure most of those happened at all, even unsuccessful) then you say 1-1-1 which has like 10 different versions, leave out ghost rush, supply drop rush, 2rax, blueflame drop, helion/marauder, etc etc. too biased. i'd understand if you whine about protoss lategame (it's not as bad as you guys make it sound, but definitely protoss favored after a point i agree), but rly early game allins? 90% of those only could work if the terran goes cc first, in the 1base allin race vs race fight terran is definitely heads above zerg and protoss... i mean come on, it wasn't that long ago when like every protoss was 1-1-1'd out of the gsl, and it still doesn't have a safe counter build, and mention 3 versions of 4gate which are easily held with 1-2 bunkers and scv repair. or is it frustration from ladder?
QFT... Though terran tears are nice every once in a while 
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People are whinning that Terran is WAY harder to play than Protoss... therefore, the imbalance should be blatant at the foreigners level, right, knowing that Koreans are way closer to the skill ceiling?
But, looking at the numbers, Overall win rate around the world, so including Korea, is pretty much perfectly balanced for every race, while being super Protoss favored in every match up in Korea...
Logically, that means that if you excluded Korea from the overall winrate and that you are only keeping foreigners numbers, Protoss are actually at the lower end of the graph. Not by much, but still under 50% in each match up outside Korea. If those numbers include only high level play... that means that Terran are actually beating protoss more than 50% of the time outside Korea.
So, actually, the "Protoss is WAY easier to play" seems like bullshit to me.
And i'm actually playing Zerg and Terran... so no, it's not bias talking... i'm just looking at numbers.
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On March 05 2012 22:25 Hakanfrog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 10:03 Dalavita wrote:On March 05 2012 09:24 msjakofsky wrote:On March 05 2012 00:41 Dalavita wrote:
The better players chose terran, because of the BW heritage, and protoss players improved at a slower rate compared to the other races because of the ease of the race. There are examples that stand out, but at this stage, most of the top tier protosses are significantly worse than their zerg/terran buddies. A recent example is the Genius vs DRG finals where Genius was outskilled by quite a bit by his opponent, or even Inca vs Nestea. I can't think of one terran or zerg who reached the GSL finals who wasn't a top tier beast. you're so full of male cattle excrement... implying that top, rain, july, losira are much better players than genius or mc. that one sentence made your opinion invalid and mkp cheesing in 90% of his games in open season 2. he became a legit player but he literally cheesed in almost every game. also comparing genius to inca. lol genius had a ridiculously hard road to the finals. your bias is so strong and irrational that it makes your opinion hard to take seriously Top is an amazing player, and so is Losira. I don't even remember the rain GSL run so I'll give you that one, and July played a style of zerg that fit extremely well with the metagame when he got to the GSL finals by being stupid aggressive and busting terrans down when everyone else were playing passively. Also, I haven't mentioned MC. He's one of the few protosses who got respectable top tier skills. Genius is my textbook definition of a mediocre protoss protossing his way to the finals. MKP has always ALWAYS been a top tier player. I don't care if he cheeses his way to a finals as long as he's actually skilled at the game. He would have gotten to the finals regardless of cheese or macro games and the only reason he lost against Nestea was because he choked hard. + Show Spoiler +You like the male cattle excrement don't you? OM NOM NOM I´d like to point out that the "mediocre" protoss beat the "respectable" protoss 3-0.
That's PVP for you.
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Korean zerg are having a hard time. But the overall stats look in balance.
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On March 05 2012 22:54 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 22:25 Hakanfrog wrote:On March 05 2012 10:03 Dalavita wrote:On March 05 2012 09:24 msjakofsky wrote:On March 05 2012 00:41 Dalavita wrote:
The better players chose terran, because of the BW heritage, and protoss players improved at a slower rate compared to the other races because of the ease of the race. There are examples that stand out, but at this stage, most of the top tier protosses are significantly worse than their zerg/terran buddies. A recent example is the Genius vs DRG finals where Genius was outskilled by quite a bit by his opponent, or even Inca vs Nestea. I can't think of one terran or zerg who reached the GSL finals who wasn't a top tier beast. you're so full of male cattle excrement... implying that top, rain, july, losira are much better players than genius or mc. that one sentence made your opinion invalid and mkp cheesing in 90% of his games in open season 2. he became a legit player but he literally cheesed in almost every game. also comparing genius to inca. lol genius had a ridiculously hard road to the finals. your bias is so strong and irrational that it makes your opinion hard to take seriously Top is an amazing player, and so is Losira. I don't even remember the rain GSL run so I'll give you that one, and July played a style of zerg that fit extremely well with the metagame when he got to the GSL finals by being stupid aggressive and busting terrans down when everyone else were playing passively. Also, I haven't mentioned MC. He's one of the few protosses who got respectable top tier skills. Genius is my textbook definition of a mediocre protoss protossing his way to the finals. MKP has always ALWAYS been a top tier player. I don't care if he cheeses his way to a finals as long as he's actually skilled at the game. He would have gotten to the finals regardless of cheese or macro games and the only reason he lost against Nestea was because he choked hard. + Show Spoiler +You like the male cattle excrement don't you? OM NOM NOM I´d like to point out that the "mediocre" protoss beat the "respectable" protoss 3-0. That's PVP for you.
It's hilarious how you first talk about "Protossing" your way to the finals when there have been the fewest Protoss finalists out of all 3 races. If it's so easy, then why was Genius the first Protoss to make Code S finals in well over half a year? Your ridiculous claim of one "Protossing" one's way to the finals implies that any mediocre Protoss can simply "Protoss" his way through a list of opponents that includes MC, DRG, Nestea, sC, MKP, and aLive. Then, when someone brings up how Genius 3-0 swept MC (the only matchup that you can't complain about balance in), you just say "lol PvP" despite the fact that players like MC, Oz, and Inca managed to have extremely consistent PvP winrates at various points despite claims that it's a coinflip matchup. Same with Nestea and DRG vZ. People have, in the past, complained that it's a coinflip too, but in the end, some players simply make supposedly coin-flippy mirrors work with superior decisionmaking, control, mindgames, and overall skill. Furthermore, one of those games was clearly Genius beating MC in a long macro game, long past the period of coinflippiness. Meanwhile, you conveniently bring up how Genius was "outskilled" by his opponent in the finals, while ignoring that Genius 2-0'd DRG in the group stages (Oh, and if you want to talk about getting "outskilled" by an opponent in the finals, how about the fact that MKP is the player most well-known for losing in the finals? Oh wait, your excuse is that he "choked hard" against Nestea. Tell me, why don't you also give Genius the same benefit of doubt, that he "choked hard"? Because you think MKP is better and thus believe he was capable of better play? Well, so was Genius - just look at how he 2-0'd DRG on his way to the finals)
There's clearly no point in continuing this discussion because of how biased you are, but I just figured I'd call you out on all of your BS before continuing my studying. I'm admittedly a Protoss fan myself, but at least I give credit to all races where credit is due. Despite my dislike of MKP, he's a very damn strong player, and I'd put him as a favorite literally any Protoss right now because his TvP has looked so good. DRG is great. MVP is great. Nestea is great. MC is great. MMA is great. Though he's been slipping off, Bomber in top form is fucking amazing. And, as this season as shown me, Genius is quite good as well - you could hardly ask for a more difficult path to the finals (which is, I might add the huge difference between IncA and Genius).
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On March 05 2012 22:37 Xalorian wrote:
People are whinning that Terran is WAY harder to play than Protoss... therefore, the imbalance should be blatant at the foreigners level, right, knowing that Koreans are way closer to the skill ceiling?
But, looking at the numbers, Overall win rate around the world, so including Korea, is pretty much perfectly balanced for every race, while being super Protoss favored in every match up in Korea...
Logically, that means that if you excluded Korea from the overall winrate and that you are only keeping foreigners numbers, Protoss are actually at the lower end of the graph. Not by much, but still under 50% in each match up outside Korea. If those numbers include only high level play... that means that Terran are actually beating protoss more than 50% of the time outside Korea.
So, actually, the "Protoss is WAY easier to play" seems like bullshit to me.
And i'm actually playing Zerg and Terran... so no, it's not bias talking... i'm just looking at numbers.
You probably think this way because your looking at the numbers, and havn't actually played protoss. People get so carried away with the numbers all the time, but considering most of the sample sizes for basically every set of Data that comes onto TL are so small, you can't really get an accurate reading on whats going on.
That being said Blizzard is fond of making changes on small sample sizes, and I wish they wouldn't change things so hastily.
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On March 06 2012 15:08 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 22:37 Xalorian wrote:
People are whinning that Terran is WAY harder to play than Protoss... therefore, the imbalance should be blatant at the foreigners level, right, knowing that Koreans are way closer to the skill ceiling?
But, looking at the numbers, Overall win rate around the world, so including Korea, is pretty much perfectly balanced for every race, while being super Protoss favored in every match up in Korea...
Logically, that means that if you excluded Korea from the overall winrate and that you are only keeping foreigners numbers, Protoss are actually at the lower end of the graph. Not by much, but still under 50% in each match up outside Korea. If those numbers include only high level play... that means that Terran are actually beating protoss more than 50% of the time outside Korea.
So, actually, the "Protoss is WAY easier to play" seems like bullshit to me.
And i'm actually playing Zerg and Terran... so no, it's not bias talking... i'm just looking at numbers.
You probably think this way because your looking at the numbers, and havn't actually played protoss. People get so carried away with the numbers all the time, but considering most of the sample sizes for basically every set of Data that comes onto TL are so small, you can't really get an accurate reading on whats going on. That being said Blizzard is fond of making changes on small sample sizes, and I wish they wouldn't change things so hastily.
what?
-) a few thousand games is NOT a small samplesize
-) blizzard has their own stats from the ladder ladder and from tournament play; at least that's what they say
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On March 05 2012 22:25 Hakanfrog wrote:
I´d like to point out that the "mediocre" protoss beat the "respectable" protoss 3-0.
I know you're saying this in a sarcastic sense, but I agree. I think Genius is possibly the best Protoss in the world right now. Watching how he handled sC's multitasking was insane. To say Genius "protossed" his way into the finals is just silly. The guy is amazing. This doesn't mean I don't think there is balance issues with PvT, but people should give respect to a great protoss.
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On March 06 2012 16:42 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 15:08 Raambo11 wrote:On March 05 2012 22:37 Xalorian wrote:
People are whinning that Terran is WAY harder to play than Protoss... therefore, the imbalance should be blatant at the foreigners level, right, knowing that Koreans are way closer to the skill ceiling?
But, looking at the numbers, Overall win rate around the world, so including Korea, is pretty much perfectly balanced for every race, while being super Protoss favored in every match up in Korea...
Logically, that means that if you excluded Korea from the overall winrate and that you are only keeping foreigners numbers, Protoss are actually at the lower end of the graph. Not by much, but still under 50% in each match up outside Korea. If those numbers include only high level play... that means that Terran are actually beating protoss more than 50% of the time outside Korea.
So, actually, the "Protoss is WAY easier to play" seems like bullshit to me.
And i'm actually playing Zerg and Terran... so no, it's not bias talking... i'm just looking at numbers.
You probably think this way because your looking at the numbers, and havn't actually played protoss. People get so carried away with the numbers all the time, but considering most of the sample sizes for basically every set of Data that comes onto TL are so small, you can't really get an accurate reading on whats going on. That being said Blizzard is fond of making changes on small sample sizes, and I wish they wouldn't change things so hastily. what? -) a few thousand games is NOT a small samplesize -) blizzard has their own stats from the ladder ladder and from tournament play; at least that's what they say
A few thousand games is a tiny sample size that is basically meaningless. BW has swung from one race dominating to another just from maps/people figuring things out. A few thousand games coming out with a 5% higher win-rate for one race is meaningless and the fact that people actually use this to back up their arguments is beyond retarded.
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problem with a graph like this is, that it doesnt show the effort to actually get a win as race X, although effort is one of the biggest unit of measurement in balance.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
international graphs look good.
korean graphs look really bad. but the sample size isn't sufficient imo.
overall blizzard is nearing really solid balance - but at a cost of game diversity.
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On March 18 2012 18:45 eighteen8 wrote:
problem with a graph like this is, that it doesnt show the effort to actually get a win as race X, although effort is one of the biggest unit of measurement in balance.
Let's say all one race had was a melee unit, and one of the other races, has a ranged unit, that when properly controlled, can infinitely kite the melee unit. Despite the fact that it takes the ranged unit 5 times longer to kill the melee than vice versa, the game is imbalanced in favor of the ranged race, even though you can argue it takes ridiculously more effort to kite with the ranged units.
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How comes that international is so much balanced and Korean is not?
Maybe its because Korean statistic fluctuate too much? A month is probably not enough. Look at PvZ, it's all up and down, there is no usefull conlucsion to be made.
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How do you get this statisctics?
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funny how its first time in a year where protoss winning more in PvT and all terran start crying so much...
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On March 18 2012 19:20 thezanursic wrote:
How do you get this statisctics?
He gets them from the TLPD- that thing you see on the right see of the screen on TL. It's a database that has the results of all significant tournament games for both the international scene and Korea.
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Protoss domination illustrated clearly in statistics
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On March 21 2012 17:47 Corsica wrote:
funny how its first time in a year where protoss winning more in PvT and all terran start crying so much...
funny how you are either blind or didn't look at the graphs at all.
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a better resolution would be great but thx for your work
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EPT
