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On March 02 2012 20:01 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 19:38 Doublemint wrote:On March 02 2012 18:27 HavocGG wrote:
The korean chart's never been very balanced mainly due to how low the amount of games played is compared to international, keep that in mind guys.
Korean : 363 games
International : 2208 games Good point, wanted to write the same, yet the international charts are almost PERFECT(well at least as good as it can get). Really like it  . Also, ZvT is NOT broken after the nerf of ghosts, P is NOT imba anywhere now(though they are doing pretty ok now for a change.) If some months go by with similar balanced stats - who needs HotS?(jk  ) That doesn't mean shit, it doesn't matter how large the sample size is, if the quality of the sample is low. For example at the Diamond level, terrans that don't know how to split marines and/or focus fire tanks against banes, so they trade incredibly cost inefficient, however there are probably thousands of more diamond vs diamond games than pro level games. Does that mean we put any weight on the diamond games? Of course we don't! The difference between the top level in Korea and the top in EU or NA, is massive, watching the GSL and then ASUS RoG, the difference between the top Korean Toss and the rest of the Toss was mind blowing, the way they manage their armies, their bases, macro, the way they expand and pressure, was all so fundamentally different that it made the rest of the world Toss look like they here in the stone age. Another huge factor is that Korea now uses a very different map pool from the rest of the world. Korea uses exclusively tournament grade maps and have rooted out maps that where deemed to be imbalanced. A lot of EU, NA tournaments and dailies still use a couple of ladder maps like Metal or Shattered that skew balance in favor of once race or another. Consider those into your calculation more carefully next time.
There are so many factors(most subjective) to take into the equation... maps,players, korea, not korea,game length...
Hell, I even can say that apart from HerO at Asus RoG, yes, those tosses are in the stone age in comparison. And even he got schooled by an exceptionally well playing POLT(very hard so on Antiga Shipyard - many consider it a pretty good T map, see what I did there?). For once the pendulum swings slightly in Protoss favor - so what? We will never be able to satisfy everybody. That´s just life. But what can be achieved is people realizing where the strengths of their respective races lie. On EVERY level. And the measurement of the stats may not be perfect, but it is consistent as far as I can tell. If you think it´s bad, be my guest and find a more accurate method, and put as much work into it as the OP.
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On March 02 2012 17:51 Peleus wrote:
As a Zerg, I prefer to argue that we need a buff due to the Korean statistics.
Seriously though, it just goes its hard to even define balance let alone measure it reliably. International says balanced, Korea says otherwise.
It's nice to see the international as balanced as it ever has been though.
300 games played in a month can't determine balance.
On March 02 2012 19:56 DarQraven wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 19:28 fiveohfive wrote:
So does anyone still want to argue that Protoss isn't a little too powerful in the T v P MU now? Oh, lets give it few more months first I guess, just to make sure Protoss has nothing to argue about.
EDIT: Wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago David Kim said the T v P MU was fine? Hmmmmmmmmmm.......... Keke, loving this. Terran heavily favored for nine months straight? Protoss are just whining. Protoss has positive winrate for two months, for once? Protoss OP. I find it really hard to take this attitude seriously. Apart from the snipe change, nothing was patched in PvT since early November. Are you saying that Protoss has suddenly become more and more OP, even though there weren't any patch changes between november and a week ago? I say give this some time. For the three months that Protoss has had a positive PvT rate --in the graph--, there are actually only two months where the winrate is positive. If you look at the bars, you'll see the data for January 2012 once again show the matchup in favor of Terran by 56%. Hardly reason to call OP on anything.
Protoss has always been overpowered. It's simply that protoss players have always been worse than their terran counterparts in the GSL, so it's taken them this long to figure out how to play the race to its fullest.
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On March 02 2012 20:21 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 17:51 Peleus wrote:
As a Zerg, I prefer to argue that we need a buff due to the Korean statistics.
Seriously though, it just goes its hard to even define balance let alone measure it reliably. International says balanced, Korea says otherwise.
It's nice to see the international as balanced as it ever has been though. 300 games played in a month can't determine balance. Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 19:56 DarQraven wrote:On March 02 2012 19:28 fiveohfive wrote:
So does anyone still want to argue that Protoss isn't a little too powerful in the T v P MU now? Oh, lets give it few more months first I guess, just to make sure Protoss has nothing to argue about.
EDIT: Wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago David Kim said the T v P MU was fine? Hmmmmmmmmmm.......... Keke, loving this. Terran heavily favored for nine months straight? Protoss are just whining. Protoss has positive winrate for two months, for once? Protoss OP. I find it really hard to take this attitude seriously. Apart from the snipe change, nothing was patched in PvT since early November. Are you saying that Protoss has suddenly become more and more OP, even though there weren't any patch changes between november and a week ago? I say give this some time. For the three months that Protoss has had a positive PvT rate --in the graph--, there are actually only two months where the winrate is positive. If you look at the bars, you'll see the data for January 2012 once again show the matchup in favor of Terran by 56%. Hardly reason to call OP on anything. Protoss has always been overpowered. It's simply that protoss players have always been worse than their terran counterparts in the GSL, so it's taken them this long to figure out how to play the race to its fullest.
Oh is *that* it? Everyone besides Terrans just magically suck? Okay.
My question is why you even browse the stats threads if you're gonna use logic like that.
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On March 02 2012 20:30 DarQraven wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 20:21 Dalavita wrote:On March 02 2012 17:51 Peleus wrote:
As a Zerg, I prefer to argue that we need a buff due to the Korean statistics.
Seriously though, it just goes its hard to even define balance let alone measure it reliably. International says balanced, Korea says otherwise.
It's nice to see the international as balanced as it ever has been though. 300 games played in a month can't determine balance. On March 02 2012 19:56 DarQraven wrote:On March 02 2012 19:28 fiveohfive wrote:
So does anyone still want to argue that Protoss isn't a little too powerful in the T v P MU now? Oh, lets give it few more months first I guess, just to make sure Protoss has nothing to argue about.
EDIT: Wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago David Kim said the T v P MU was fine? Hmmmmmmmmmm.......... Keke, loving this. Terran heavily favored for nine months straight? Protoss are just whining. Protoss has positive winrate for two months, for once? Protoss OP. I find it really hard to take this attitude seriously. Apart from the snipe change, nothing was patched in PvT since early November. Are you saying that Protoss has suddenly become more and more OP, even though there weren't any patch changes between november and a week ago? I say give this some time. For the three months that Protoss has had a positive PvT rate --in the graph--, there are actually only two months where the winrate is positive. If you look at the bars, you'll see the data for January 2012 once again show the matchup in favor of Terran by 56%. Hardly reason to call OP on anything. Protoss has always been overpowered. It's simply that protoss players have always been worse than their terran counterparts in the GSL, so it's taken them this long to figure out how to play the race to its fullest. Oh is *that* it? Everyone besides Terrans just magically suck? Okay. My question is why you even browse the stats threads if you're gonna use logic like that.
Because it's interesting, and I like reading individual conclusions. However none of the graphs can be used to discuss balance, mainly because of internationals varying skill level and koreas small sample size that's too easily influenced by individual exceptional players, of which there are more who play terran.
As a jab back to you. I think it's absurd that anyone can consider that the skill level in korea is equal at the GSL code A/S level. There's nothing magical about it. Some people are better than others, and those happen to be the terrans in the GSL.
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the irony of the protoss players quickly downplaying it and jumping on terran and saying fair is fair rather than look for actual balance is pathetic.
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363 games is a really really damn little sample though.
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Things are going to bounce around until they address warp in.
Things are going to continue to bounce around even after that though,
so i'm not really too sure i care anymore either way.
bouncing around is good for the game in some ways.
id prefer it not be a mess though.
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On March 02 2012 20:21 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 17:51 Peleus wrote:
As a Zerg, I prefer to argue that we need a buff due to the Korean statistics.
Seriously though, it just goes its hard to even define balance let alone measure it reliably. International says balanced, Korea says otherwise.
It's nice to see the international as balanced as it ever has been though. 300 games played in a month can't determine balance. Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 19:56 DarQraven wrote:On March 02 2012 19:28 fiveohfive wrote:
So does anyone still want to argue that Protoss isn't a little too powerful in the T v P MU now? Oh, lets give it few more months first I guess, just to make sure Protoss has nothing to argue about.
EDIT: Wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago David Kim said the T v P MU was fine? Hmmmmmmmmmm.......... Keke, loving this. Terran heavily favored for nine months straight? Protoss are just whining. Protoss has positive winrate for two months, for once? Protoss OP. I find it really hard to take this attitude seriously. Apart from the snipe change, nothing was patched in PvT since early November. Are you saying that Protoss has suddenly become more and more OP, even though there weren't any patch changes between november and a week ago? I say give this some time. For the three months that Protoss has had a positive PvT rate --in the graph--, there are actually only two months where the winrate is positive. If you look at the bars, you'll see the data for January 2012 once again show the matchup in favor of Terran by 56%. Hardly reason to call OP on anything. Protoss has always been overpowered. It's simply that protoss players have always been worse than their terran counterparts in the GSL, so it's taken them this long to figure out how to play the race to its fullest.
LOL loving this. Please keep it coming.
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Netherlands86 Posts
On March 02 2012 18:27 HavocGG wrote:
The korean chart's never been very balanced mainly due to how low the amount of games played is compared to international, keep that in mind guys.
Korean : 363 games
International : 2208 games
The korean statistics do mean something, you just have to take note of the standard deviation. The deviation is higher due to the smaller sample size, but if you compare the ZvP stats with the stats from last month you see a decent shift that goes beyond the margin of error.
But as far as i know the error bars that are shown in the graphs should be accompanied by a confidence level, right? That seems to be missing.
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as I am no korean my protoss play still sucks
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4713 Posts
Yes there are many factors that go into those games, but many are not subjective at all. It is generally accepted that Koreans are better then the rest of the world, no secret there, it is widely known and accepted that maps do affect balance and game length has started to be analyzed. Heck, you yourself said that apart from Hero all the other tosses looked like they where in the stone age, how is that subjective?
It also doesn't warm me at all to know what each race is capable of at each ladder milestone, as long as you can strive for something better, what you can do at your level is irrelevant. A strategy that works at your level might not even work at all at the highest level just based on how crisp the micro and execution of the response is, and how tight the timings are.
What bothers me is that you make the grave assumption to consider the game balanced by viewing a sample of international games and assuming the level of everyone is equal, when in fact it is not. And while the Korean sample of games is of better quality and more indicative of of balance, it is flawed as well since the number of games is smaller, though it is still a better glimpse of balance then a large but much more skewed stat.
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The international charts are independent from the koreans playing internationally?
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On March 02 2012 20:56 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The international charts are independent from the koreans playing internationally?
no, as far as I know, they just sum up the TLPD stats. In which the Korean games are included.
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did expect the korean results with zerg not doing so good,but no reason to cry yet,I just hope we zergs can catch up,zvp can be very difficult to play,and yeah zvt just depends on the players I think.
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Just asking a question,
But because the latest patch hit at the very end of February would that impact the results of the graph much, if not at all - or would we have to wait until next month to properly see the patches impact?
Grammar edit.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On March 02 2012 21:00 Jaegeru wrote:
Just asking a question,
But because the latest patch hit at the very end of February would that impact the results of the graph much, if not at all - or would we have to wait until next month to properly see the patches impact?
Grammar edit.
It did almost nothing for this month, there were not enough games played
You will have to wait for next month
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Blizzard needs to give more time between patches....
Look at PvZ at Korea, it switched just because of P improving their game, and Z stagnating.
We need to wait till a balance.
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@destructicon
Alright, in my juvenile manner(don´t judge - it´s who I am), I gladly read the news that those are the most balanced graphs (at least internationally)we have had since the release of the game. I rephrase from "PERFECT" to "PRETTY GOOD". Of course there are still many problems. BL/Infestor lategame vs T and P, the Toss response Mommaship vortex, TvP lategame. Those are the most well known issues. Until people find out more and more timings etc + more patches we will be in for an even more pleasant gaming experience. I really don´t see what beef exactly you have with my post. Is it that everything outside of Korea<<<<<<<Korea and therefore is to dismiss? I hope not, though they definitely are the benchmark for high level Sc2.
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On March 02 2012 21:02 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 21:00 Jaegeru wrote:
Just asking a question,
But because the latest patch hit at the very end of February would that impact the results of the graph much, if not at all - or would we have to wait until next month to properly see the patches impact?
Grammar edit. It did almost nothing for this month, there were not enough games played You will have to wait for next month
Thanks, I thought that would have been the case.
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On March 02 2012 18:02 Molybdenum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 17:58 Megaman_X wrote:On March 02 2012 17:55 HaiFiSCH26 wrote:
I hope that people on ladder will stop whining now taht zerg is up,difference in ZvP is only 1% and as a whole it looks faitly balanced. or difference is ~18% in korea And just the month before it was about 14% different in favor of zerg. The metagame is shifting like crazy, and yet Blizzard is putting out balance patches when things aren't clearly in favor of one race or another.
Totally my opinion. Metagame shifting like crazy and blizzard goes "herpderp we need to help durrr!!!"
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On March 02 2012 21:04 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Blizzard needs to give more time between patches....
Look at PvZ at Korea, it switched just because of P improving their game, and Z stagnating.
We need to wait till a balance.
I disagree... The korean ZvP graphs have been swinging back and forth since October.
The two major patches for this periode:
September:
Major changes:
Protoss buffs: Immortal range, Warp Prism HP
Zerg nerfs: Fungal, NP
others: Mothership acceleration, blink research time, Overseer, Ultralisk build time
November:
others: upgrade cost reduction for Protoss
I definatly think that Protoss got the better end in the patching, and it looks like blizzard got it somewhat right, as the winrates have been getting closer since then.
Of course change of playstyles occured as well, but I absolutly think that the patches did their work.
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Well, judging by last month's thread when Mutas were obviously OP, Mutas are now UP, so we need to buff them.
... or maybe we can wait a little and see where maps and "metagame" shifts take us.
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EPT
