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Music copyright issue. Are streamers immune to it? - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
February 13 2012 08:49 GMT
#101
Nope, not legal But you're only a criminal if they catch you
Tomken
Profile Joined January 2010
Norway1144 Posts
February 13 2012 08:56 GMT
#102
On February 13 2012 10:16 stork4ever wrote:
The real question is: how will this affect kpop on the koreans and huk's stream???!!!!!

Koreans use music at their webcam streams @ afeeca (kr stremaing site) for years so won't change anything.
MBCGame HERO FIGHTING!!!~
FreudianTrip
Profile Joined July 2011
Switzerland1983 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-13 09:23:11
February 13 2012 09:10 GMT
#103
What are you going to do? Sue the guy that makes 10 cents a commercial? LOL, your lawyer will charge more a day than most stramers make in a week.

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
So boiling it down, there are the four variables.
A. Number of vehicles
B. Probable rate of failure
C. Average out-of-court settlement
X. Cutoff number for a recall

Following the narrator's math, X<A*B*C or Recall<Vehicles*Probability*Settlement

Sounds terrible and mathematical right? If a business does this, we should boycott their clearly unethical behavior, right? Well, legally, this is not only ethical, but legal and expected behavior from any person.

Welcome, to the wonderful world of negligence law. In particular, the formula the narrator describes is a rephrased version of the "Calculus of Negligence" or Hand Test. Now, lawyer's typically aren't good at math, so leave it to them to make a very basic Algebraic formula "Calculus." Here there are three variables:

B. Burden of taking Precaution
P. Probability
L. Loss

Applied, this formula comes out as B<P*L or Burden<Probability*Loss.


Same deal here.

The only way I can see it happening is if they group together (I've forgotten the term because I'm a) dumb and b) it's early) and sue twitch instead. Leaving it in the hands of Twitch and Own3d to remove streamers themselves rather than the lawyers going after specific streamers.
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-13 09:15:27
February 13 2012 09:10 GMT
#104
On February 13 2012 13:34 WolfintheSheep wrote:
The artists don't give a crap about music piracy and illegal streaming because they see almost no music sales in the first place, because all the labels abuse their accounting practices and contract terms to avoid paying anyone a dime.

It's the labels that care, because that's where they're milking all their profits from.

Sure the artists care. Artists would be starving artists (like most are) if the labels didnt spend millions on them in production advertizing and promotion to make them popular. They may break even on that end after paying back the label, but the millions made from concerts would be no shows without the label in the first place. If labels can't make money due to piracy they stop sponsoring artists and nothing will be made so they do care. Many artists have sued to protect thier works most notably Metallica.

And the labels care as you note to get a return on their investments, since most are busts they go after their used content with vigilance and I don't blame them.
MC for president
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
February 13 2012 09:22 GMT
#105
On February 13 2012 15:28 Sway.746 wrote:
This is pretty much the height of ridiculousness as far as copyright law goes. Streaming music can only be good for the artists, and yet the RIAA is dumb enough to think it's a good idea to shut down all of it and try to get the popular streamers to pay for it. In return for chump change, the artists that the RIAA supposedly represents will get magnitudes less exposure.

The music industry as a whole is so short-sighted.

Sure they are. That's why its CEOs make hundreds of millions and they make dozens of millionaires every year. Free Vods is teh way to go, just ask some SC2 promoters.
MC for president
Rannasha
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Netherlands2398 Posts
February 13 2012 09:28 GMT
#106
On February 13 2012 15:29 Keltanokka wrote:
Quick question: If the music you stream is distributed by the artists for free, it's technically not copyright infringing, right?


That depends on the license under which the music was distributed. Music may be available for free from the artists website, without the license granting you permission to redistribute it. You can imagine the artist wanting to promote their upcoming tour by luring people to the website for free downloads of their songs. In this case, streaming the music would not be okay.

Additionally, some music is provided for free for non-commercial use. If you stream with ads, you make money. The contribution of the music to your income is most likely very small, but it can be argued that the music you stream adds to the quality of your product and as such is being used for commercial purposes.

So "free to download" and "free to stream" need not be the same thing.
Such flammable little insects!
bluQ
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany1724 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-13 09:45:40
February 13 2012 09:40 GMT
#107
On February 13 2012 18:10 tdt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2012 13:34 WolfintheSheep wrote:
The artists don't give a crap about music piracy and illegal streaming because they see almost no music sales in the first place, because all the labels abuse their accounting practices and contract terms to avoid paying anyone a dime.

It's the labels that care, because that's where they're milking all their profits from.

Sure the artists care. Artists would be starving artists (like most are) if the labels didnt spend millions on them in production advertizing and promotion to make them popular. They may break even on that end after paying back the label, but the millions made from concerts would be no shows without the label in the first place. If labels can't make money due to piracy they stop sponsoring artists and nothing will be made so they do care. Many artists have sued to protect thier works most notably Metallica.

And the labels care as you note to get a return on their investments, since most are busts they go after their used content with vigilance and I don't blame them.

Which is still not a valid argument considering that the users consum behavior and demands are changing.
If a market is changing you can try to enforce your ideals to it. That doesn't mean it will succeed, believe it or not, in the very end the customer is still king.
Music companies and the filmindustry are now trying to ask the judicative for help because they realized they can't do it by themselves. Those who normally herpderp around and crying out for "free-market economy".

@OnTopic, it is the same with streaming Blizzard content. In their license agreement you can clearly read that you are NOT allowed to stream ANY content of Blizzard if you earn money with it. Which means: you eitehr need an agreement outside of that with Blizzard or they just tolerate you but are able to just shut you down. Same is happening with streaming music on streams. Its a matter of toleration and earning money with it or not. Legally; not legal, as sad as it is.

Edit:
On February 13 2012 18:28 Rannasha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2012 15:29 Keltanokka wrote:
Quick question: If the music you stream is distributed by the artists for free, it's technically not copyright infringing, right?


That depends on the license under which the music was distributed. Music may be available for free from the artists website, without the license granting you permission to redistribute it. You can imagine the artist wanting to promote their upcoming tour by luring people to the website for free downloads of their songs. In this case, streaming the music would not be okay.

Additionally, some music is provided for free for non-commercial use. If you stream with ads, you make money. The contribution of the music to your income is most likely very small, but it can be argued that the music you stream adds to the quality of your product and as such is being used for commercial purposes.

So "free to download" and "free to stream" need not be the same thing.

Exactly. Look up under which licence it is provided to you and you will know. If you can't find any licence I guess it doesn't hurt too much to use it (and obviously if no were is explicitly said you are not allowed to stream it ).
And non-commercial use of free to download stuff is generally not a problem. Which can help you further more to prevent any harm to give credit to the author of the free stuff. (showing what u are playing atm etc.etc.)
www.twitch.tv/bluquh (PoE, Starbow, HS)
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
February 13 2012 09:50 GMT
#108
On February 13 2012 18:40 bluQ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2012 18:10 tdt wrote:
On February 13 2012 13:34 WolfintheSheep wrote:
The artists don't give a crap about music piracy and illegal streaming because they see almost no music sales in the first place, because all the labels abuse their accounting practices and contract terms to avoid paying anyone a dime.

It's the labels that care, because that's where they're milking all their profits from.

Sure the artists care. Artists would be starving artists (like most are) if the labels didnt spend millions on them in production advertizing and promotion to make them popular. They may break even on that end after paying back the label, but the millions made from concerts would be no shows without the label in the first place. If labels can't make money due to piracy they stop sponsoring artists and nothing will be made so they do care. Many artists have sued to protect thier works most notably Metallica.

And the labels care as you note to get a return on their investments, since most are busts they go after their used content with vigilance and I don't blame them.

Which is still not a valid argument considering that the users consum behavior and demands are changing.
If a market is changing you can try to enforce your ideals to it. That doesn't mean it will succeed, believe it or not, in the very end the customer is still king.
Music companies and the filmindustry are now trying to ask the judicative for help because they realized they can't do it by themselves. Those who normally herpderp around and crying out for "free-market economy".

@OnTopic, it is the same with streaming Blizzard content. In their license agreement you can clearly read that you are NOT allowed to stream ANY content of Blizzard if you earn money with it. Which means: you eitehr need an agreement outside of that with Blizzard or they just tolerate you but are able to just shut you down. Same is happening with streaming music on streams. Its a matter of toleration and earning money with it or not. Legally; not legal, as sad as it is.

I haven't seen artists do well on their own to any degree with this new media/internet freebies. There are some sites with tons of free music made by very good artists and they go nowhere without label participation. People vastly underestimate the value labels create and the market they create.

Free market does not mean property rights are not protected. I can't just go rob your house in a free market.
IP, patents and copyrights have always had some force of law behind them at least in the West which is very free market.

MC for president
TBO
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany1350 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-13 09:51:28
February 13 2012 09:50 GMT
#109
On February 13 2012 18:40 bluQ wrote:


@OnTopic, it is the same with streaming Blizzard content. In their license agreement you can clearly read that you are NOT allowed to stream ANY content of Blizzard if you earn money with it. Which means: you eitehr need an agreement outside of that with Blizzard or they just tolerate you but are able to just shut you down. Same is happening with streaming music on streams. Its a matter of toleration and earning money with it or not. Legally; not legal, as sad as it is.



Blizzard has a Video Policy allowing it: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/videopolicy.html
bluQ
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany1724 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-13 10:00:17
February 13 2012 09:58 GMT
#110
On February 13 2012 18:50 tdt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2012 18:40 bluQ wrote:
On February 13 2012 18:10 tdt wrote:
On February 13 2012 13:34 WolfintheSheep wrote:
The artists don't give a crap about music piracy and illegal streaming because they see almost no music sales in the first place, because all the labels abuse their accounting practices and contract terms to avoid paying anyone a dime.

It's the labels that care, because that's where they're milking all their profits from.

Sure the artists care. Artists would be starving artists (like most are) if the labels didnt spend millions on them in production advertizing and promotion to make them popular. They may break even on that end after paying back the label, but the millions made from concerts would be no shows without the label in the first place. If labels can't make money due to piracy they stop sponsoring artists and nothing will be made so they do care. Many artists have sued to protect thier works most notably Metallica.

And the labels care as you note to get a return on their investments, since most are busts they go after their used content with vigilance and I don't blame them.

Which is still not a valid argument considering that the users consum behavior and demands are changing.
If a market is changing you can try to enforce your ideals to it. That doesn't mean it will succeed, believe it or not, in the very end the customer is still king.
Music companies and the filmindustry are now trying to ask the judicative for help because they realized they can't do it by themselves. Those who normally herpderp around and crying out for "free-market economy".

@OnTopic, it is the same with streaming Blizzard content. In their license agreement you can clearly read that you are NOT allowed to stream ANY content of Blizzard if you earn money with it. Which means: you eitehr need an agreement outside of that with Blizzard or they just tolerate you but are able to just shut you down. Same is happening with streaming music on streams. Its a matter of toleration and earning money with it or not. Legally; not legal, as sad as it is.

I haven't seen artists do well on their own to any degree with this new media/internet freebies. There are some sites with tons of free music made by very good artists and they go nowhere without label participation. People vastly underestimate the value labels create and the market they create.

Free market does not mean property rights are not protected. I can't just go rob your house in a free market.
IP, patents and copyrights have always had some force of law behind them at least in the West which is very free market.


I never said there shouldn't be a company managing the artists. I only talked about how the market is changing which is a fact. If you won't deal with this fact correctly (they tried to enforce their ideas to a changing market and didnt succeded) you will probably fail hard and lose a lot of earnings (allready happening). So to protect their precious annual earnings they ask the state for help. It is not like "piracy" of music is a new thing. My parents "pirated" music.

On February 13 2012 18:50 TBO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2012 18:40 bluQ wrote:


@OnTopic, it is the same with streaming Blizzard content. In their license agreement you can clearly read that you are NOT allowed to stream ANY content of Blizzard if you earn money with it. Which means: you eitehr need an agreement outside of that with Blizzard or they just tolerate you but are able to just shut you down. Same is happening with streaming music on streams. Its a matter of toleration and earning money with it or not. Legally; not legal, as sad as it is.



Blizzard has a Video Policy allowing it: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/videopolicy.html

And the "Fundamental Rule" is a quote out of the licence agreement:

The Fundamental Rule

First and foremost, note that except as specifically provided herein, Blizzard Entertainment requires that the use of Blizzard Content must be limited to non-commercial purposes.

Edit: And yea they exclude some things from this rule but it is still just a toleration and only by this declaring and "partner program" stuff tolerated. If certain artists/labels would state such things it would be the same. Doesn't change that generally its not legal.
www.twitch.tv/bluquh (PoE, Starbow, HS)
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-13 10:07:17
February 13 2012 10:04 GMT
#111
i wonder why the guys who block half of the youtube videos (gema) in germany, did not try to take down all the streaming sites yet.
Im not kidding, if they notice this, they will try it.
They dont care for the country the streamer comes from. This guys would sue a little kid in afrika if he streams music to germany and dont pay for it.
Save gaming: kill esport
bluQ
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany1724 Posts
February 13 2012 10:05 GMT
#112
On February 13 2012 19:04 skeldark wrote:
i wonder why the guys who block half of the youtube videos (gema) in germany, did not try to take down all the streaming sites yet.
Im not kidding, if they notice this, they will try it.

It (would) only affect german streamers and even then it is on an english site. GEMA should "protect" copyrights within germany. GEMA couldn't just block twitch.tv for germans
www.twitch.tv/bluquh (PoE, Starbow, HS)
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-13 10:19:54
February 13 2012 10:09 GMT
#113
On February 13 2012 19:05 bluQ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2012 19:04 skeldark wrote:
i wonder why the guys who block half of the youtube videos (gema) in germany, did not try to take down all the streaming sites yet.
Im not kidding, if they notice this, they will try it.

It (would) only affect german streamers and even then it is on an english site. GEMA should "protect" copyrights within germany. GEMA couldn't just block twitch.tv for germans


Wrong. They dont care where the streamer comes from.
They forced several american radio sites to block germans out.
Youtube is not a german company. Groveshark was taken down by them 1 month ago.
They have the license for this music in germany, so they would win even on american court.

Difficult by streaming sites tho. The question is can they sue twitch or do they have to sue the single streamer.
I dont know but i know this guys would try both.

Save gaming: kill esport
bluQ
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany1724 Posts
February 13 2012 10:46 GMT
#114
On February 13 2012 19:09 skeldark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2012 19:05 bluQ wrote:
On February 13 2012 19:04 skeldark wrote:
i wonder why the guys who block half of the youtube videos (gema) in germany, did not try to take down all the streaming sites yet.
Im not kidding, if they notice this, they will try it.

It (would) only affect german streamers and even then it is on an english site. GEMA should "protect" copyrights within germany. GEMA couldn't just block twitch.tv for germans


Wrong. They dont care where the streamer comes from.
They forced several american radio sites to block germans out.
Youtube is not a german company. Groveshark was taken down by them 1 month ago.
They have the license for this music in germany, so they would win even on american court.

Difficult by streaming sites tho. The question is can they sue twitch or do they have to sue the single streamer.
I dont know but i know this guys would try both.


Sure if twitch takes more actions in the way of protecting copyright it could be the case like on youtube. But then it wouldn't just change things for us(germans).
But yea technical possible.
www.twitch.tv/bluquh (PoE, Starbow, HS)
Ryndika
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1489 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-13 11:01:31
February 13 2012 10:58 GMT
#115
On February 13 2012 10:04 Resilient wrote:
There is absolutely nothing legal about it. The only reason streamers are getting away with it is because broadcasting video games with copyrighted content is very small fish compared to the other wars copyright infringement law enforcement is fighting at the moment.

It won't last, and smart people (like Tyler) play their music but don't stream it, leaving the stream empty for you to play your own music instead.

Where is the line between fair usage then? Imo this is still fair use, I think...?
e: Also is it nationbased if you can stream music or not? Like if I'm from Finland and stream with rammstein on background, do I get suddenly call from somewhere and I have to pay fines?

e2: Where the heck can you ever find information for these copyrighted legality issues?


The Fundamental Rule

First and foremost, note that except as specifically provided herein, Blizzard Entertainment requires that the use of Blizzard Content must be limited to non-commercial purposes.

Does this mean that you can't have ads on your stream?
as useful as teasalt
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-13 11:07:18
February 13 2012 11:03 GMT
#116
On February 13 2012 19:58 Ryndika wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2012 10:04 Resilient wrote:
There is absolutely nothing legal about it. The only reason streamers are getting away with it is because broadcasting video games with copyrighted content is very small fish compared to the other wars copyright infringement law enforcement is fighting at the moment.

It won't last, and smart people (like Tyler) play their music but don't stream it, leaving the stream empty for you to play your own music instead.

Where is the line between fair usage then? Imo this is still fair use, I think...?
e: Also is it nationbased if you can stream music or not? Like if I'm from Finland and stream with rammstein on background, do I get suddenly call from somewhere and I have to pay fines?

e2: Where the heck can you ever find information for these copyrighted legality issues?

Show nested quote +

The Fundamental Rule

First and foremost, note that except as specifically provided herein, Blizzard Entertainment requires that the use of Blizzard Content must be limited to non-commercial purposes.

Does this mean that you can't have ads on your stream?

thats the crazy thing.
I think you have to study law and than specialise on international copywrite to answer this question good ....

but the chances are: 99% nothing will happen, 0.99% you get a mail one day that tell you to stop streaming music and 0.01% that you have to pay 20euro and 0.0000001 % that they use your as an example and send you to guantanamo^^
Save gaming: kill esport
AnalThermometer
Profile Joined February 2011
Vatican City State334 Posts
February 13 2012 11:07 GMT
#117
I'm sure eventually the record labels will notice, it's a little bit under their radar right now I imagine. The biggest offenders are the VODs which contain hours and hours of recorded music just sitting there.
Buzerio
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom135 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-13 11:36:58
February 13 2012 11:36 GMT
#118
On February 13 2012 19:58 Ryndika wrote:

Does this mean that you can't have ads on your stream?


no, It means you cant charge people to watch the content.
coko
Profile Joined November 2002
United Kingdom570 Posts
February 13 2012 12:03 GMT
#119
On February 13 2012 20:36 Buzerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2012 19:58 Ryndika wrote:

Does this mean that you can't have ads on your stream?


no, It means you cant charge people to watch the content.


Unless you get written approval from Blizzard most likely.

As for streaming music, as it is a public facing outlet any forms of music that is under a single use license or similar will not be allowed. Unless the streamer has a public license (unlikely, they cost a LOT!).

Expect our days to be numbered - I know of the case of French café's being targeted for playing music to their customers and being made to buy these extortionate licenses.

A real case would be the big 4 (or is it 5?) talking to Twitch and doing a deal where they get a certain percentage of profits, to be determined due to continue infringements from us, the streamers. Which is rubbish, and shows the bullshit of the music industry but hey ... that would be good to me.
-stOpSKY-
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada498 Posts
February 13 2012 13:14 GMT
#120
On February 13 2012 11:39 Catatonic wrote:
Pretty sure Twitch shut Destiny's stream down on their site which is why he switched to Own3d could be wrong but im pretty sure thats what happened lol


Yea, that is wrong. Usually when you do not know something it is best to say nothing.

As for streaming or broadcasting copyrighted audio content, it is illegal almost everywhere as has already been stated numerous times.
Maybe when e-sports grows into a larger scene this will become more of an issue, but for the time being I dont think it will be.
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