Patch 1.4.3 - Preview Blog - Page 169

On February 13 2012 01:55 Torra wrote:

If u actually had been following the current metagame, you would know that the strongest race in general is protoss (both terran and zerg players are saying this in GSL). And the race with the worst late game is terran. Pros have been saying this for quite a while now, so get ur facts straight.

On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:

This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran.

Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense.

On February 13 2012 02:17 lowercase wrote:


No, they haven't. In fact many BW pros have mentioned they will not consider changing to SC2 until it stops being "Terrancraft."

On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:

This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran.

Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense.

On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:

This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran.

Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense.

On February 13 2012 00:34 TheDwf wrote:
High Master Terran on Europe here, sometimes playing GMs. Since I'm usually only a spectator for the PvZ match-up, I will not talk about the Phoenix change.

MULEs now harvest the same amount of minerals on both high yield minerals and normal minerals.
This change is somewhat ok, though gold and MULE-haters should remember that Terran players gain little “more” by taking their fourth and fifth bases, unlike Zergs and Protosses who have then access to their precious 8/10 gases to build gas-heavy powerful units en masse. Since Terran do not benefit as much as the other races from 8/10 gases compared to 6 gases, is it that imbalanced that they're rewarded with a temporary income boost in the ressource that matters the most for them, i.e. minerals? People should remember that faster mining also means the base will be mined out earlier than normal, which means Terrans will have to (over)extend again to maintain the same income, something which is not easy to do on some maps. Now, talking about maps—I think this is the main issue with gold bases. Take Antiga for instance; gold bases were removed in recent tournament versions: did it change anything to the fact that, in ZvT, once the Terran player controls the center, the Zerg player is in deep trouble anyway?

Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic
This is a terrible and very poorly thought change. As long as neither flying Banelings (read: Ravens) nor BattleCruisers are really viable, Terrans will still need some kind of “universal unit” against Zerg tier3. Reasons are known—thanks to the way their race works, Zergs are able to remax on Ultralisks after they've traded their Broodlords, and vice versa. Since Vikings don't do well against Ultralisks, nor Marauders are particularly hot against Broodlords, and with Terran having the slowest production in the game, the Zerg possibility to tech switch in a little more than a minut (55 sec for Ultralisks, 74 for Broodlords) without the Terran being able to know which unit the Zerg chose until he sees eggs spawning (this is of the utmost importance, because it means Terran is forced to wait at least 40 sec before starting his “counter units”) means that Terrans have to be able to rely on units that are good against one option, and at least “ok” against the other option—not to mention that at this point, Zergs should have banked enough larvae to be able to quickly build a Zergling swarm.

Thors are somewhat ok against both Broodlords and Ultralisks, but their anti-air low rate of fire simply prevents them from killing Broodlords efficiently, especially with Queens being able to negate many shots in a single Transfuse. Besides, Thors are slow to replenish, and they cost 6 supply whereas Broodlords cost only 4. Macro OCs allow the Terran player to have a bigger army, but since Broodlords are air units while Thors are clumsy and bulky ground units, the more Thors you have the worst they will perform against high Broodlords count (and, once again, let us not forget the Broodlings swarm that comes with Broodlords, which at some point may simply prevent some Thors to reach Broodlords).

So, we have the tech switch issue, but we also have the “mass Broodlords with Infests” issue. Unlike Ultralisks, which are melee ground units and cost 6 supply anyway, Broodlords do not become weaker the more you have of them; actually, thanks to the Broodlings mechanic, it's quite the contrary. Terrans need a realistic answer to mass Broodlords/Infestors (of course with Corruptor support if needed) armies that inevitably come with late late game.

So Terran bro, wut u got?

Marines?
By lategame, though Marines are still useful, they cannot be played en masse the same way they are played by midgame since Infestors' Fungal Growths literally stop them dead. Marines would do fine against Broodlords on their own, but unfortunately Infestor support prevents them from ever reaching Broodlords, not to mention the Broodlings swarm that immediately spawns to surround them should they attempt to close the distance with Broodlords.

Thors?
Talked about them above.

Vikings?
Possible tech switch problem aside, in the end Vikings are simply not enough against Corruptors/Infestors. Even with the best splitting in the world (humanly speaking, I mean), Vikings inevitably tend to clump up when attacking, which means Fungal Growths will catch at least some of them, and then they will be food for Corruptors / Infested Terrans / more Fungals. Basically, Fungal Growth prevents Vikings to use their strength which is their long range; because speaking of values, it is not hard to see that the Corruptor does better in the toughness department (200 hps vs 125, 2 native armor vs 0).

Flying Banelings—I mean, Ravens?
So, the Raven—this “amazing unit of the future” which, strangely enough, is seldom seen outside of mirrors. For those who read those forums, you will always see that Raven guy who comes and teaches Terrans that “they bank 3k gas by lategame anyway,” so why not use that amazing HSM thing which will blow up your opponent's army (read: provided he's stupid enough not to micro his units[/strike)? Though you sometimes see Ravens in lategame TvZ play (don't know if Beastyqt still plays them sometimes, but this was one of the few players I saw using them; TLO was using them too), there are obvious and blatant issues which make it very hard to use them on a consistent basis.

Time
Remember the part above about Terrans having the slowest production? Typically, when playing Marine/Tanks/Medivacs in midgame, Terrans will enter lategame with one Reactor Starport—maybe with 2 Starports if you have spared resources and scout the Broodlords transition. It means that to build your Raven fleet, you will have to build several Starports with Lab attached, all while holding your line (because the Zerg player will try to break your line with his Broodlords), then research HSM and Corvid Reactor, then build Ravens, then wait 90 sec for them to have enough energy to launch a single HSM.

Now compare to Ghosts: they only require a Ghost Academy (40 sec) and Tech Labs on Barracks you already have, and depending on whether or not you have Moebius Reactor they come with 2 or 3 Snipes ready (i. e. they can be useful as soon as they spawn, not at T+90s).

What this means is that you can't really transition right away into Ravens off a standard Marines/Tank/Medivac midgame (even a mech midgame will seldom have more than 2 Starports, but they may have a Lab, so it could be a little bit easier for mech players); as costly and time-consuming as they are, in a standard game they're only viable in split map scenarii (or maybe past 4 bases for mech players who planned for a Raven transition). But then you run into the next issue:

HSM range

HSM range = 6
Fungal Growth range = 9

This simple fact makes it very difficult to use Ravens more than once, and this is why you see some people call them “flying Banelings”. Each time one of your Ravens moves forward to launch a HSM, he is at risk, because he enters the Zerg anti-air zone which is 9 range around the Infestors position. And 200 gas for possibly a single Missile which is not even guaranteed to hit a clump of units (remember: against HSM, Zerg players can still micro/spread their units) is simply too much.

So, aside from the infrastructure/time problem, the main, critical issue with Ravens is that they simply lose the caster war. Both Infestors and High Templars are able to outrange Ravens with deadly spells which kills them in some way. And this is a very serious problem, because on every map resources are limited: at some point, you must trade cost-efficiently or you will simply end up losing the split map scenario.

BattleCruisers?
Corruptors + Fungal Growth (and even Neural Parasite). Enough said. Yes, I did see this very nice Polt vs [don't remember the Zerg, maybe an IM player] ladder game @ Shattered Temple, but he could probably have won with mass SCVs, and anyway Ghosts would have netted him the kill earlier and more efficiently.

So… Ghosts.

First, we need to dismiss the idea that Ghosts are an auto-win button against lategame Zerg. This is simply false. As proven in the Fin/fOrGG vs Leenock game @ Daybreak in GSL Code S Ro32, you have to carefully manage your Ghost squad, else one bad Fungal Growth goes through and you're in deep trouble. Ghosts have 100 hit points, so they're frail units for their high cost—which is fine given their potential, but I'm merely reminding you that Ghosts are neither immortal nor invincible. They take a lot of micro to use, and the more Broodlords there is, the harder it becomes to manage your Ghost squad.

I'm also tired to hear that “Ghosts hard-counter tier3 Zerg”. This is not true. Immortals hard-counter Siege Tanks. The truth is Ghosts are a soft-counter: “Enough Ghosts with enough energy and careful micro are able to deal efficiently with Zerg tier3.” Which is very different from the usual “trololol Ghost auto-win button eznb” that you sometimes read on Live Report threads. As a Terran player, I say to Zerg players who are not convinced by this to play Terran against their own race (offracing against your own race really is a good experience anyway). You will quickly notice how fast your Ghosts fall each time you mismicro them. You will see that it takes a lot of resources and time to bank enough energy to be able to snipe a lot of Broodlords (or Ultralisks) and EMP Infestors. I mean, each time I enter lategame against Zerg, my purpose is to get this Ghost squad, but I can tell you it simply looks much easier when Mvp does it. Watching GSL, you may say “lol Ghost ez,” but then you can try it, even in a Unit test map, and you will see how hard it is to pull off, and how hard you will actually fail in a real game, desperately trying to micro your Ghost in a Broodlings sea while Broodlords relentlessly rain down death on your position.

Are Ghosts too efficient against Ultralisks? The thing is, a lot of Zerg players (including progamers) simply have a terrible Ultralisks use, making either too much of them (i. e. not enough support) or sending them to death in heavily fortified positions and then complaining about them being “horrible” or something. Like Broodlords, Ultralisks need support (Banelings and/or Infestors, and most importantly Zerglings) to do their job—but anyway, in the end, you likely won't win a split map scenario (and I'm talking about real split map, not 4/5 bases vs 3/4) against Terran with only Ultralisks, simply because, well, all melee units can be defended quite easily using chokes and mass ranged units behind defences; whether death comes from Snipes or something else is irrelevant at this point, I think you simply have to transition to Broodlords in a split map scenario, just as Protosses simply cannot afford to keep running on pure Blink Stalkers + Colossi against a mass Broodlords/Infestors/Spines split map scenario. I know, Ultralisks are tier3 while Blink Stalkers are not; still, regardless of tiers, there simply is some point beyond which some compositions are no more playable in some scenarii. For Ultralisks, the reason is quite self-explanatory: ranged units (especially air ones) get exponentially better while ground melee units do not (partly due to collision size issues).

So basically, when looking at Ghosts vs Ultralisks skirmishes, you have to wonder if using Ultralisks was the right thing to do given the state of the game, i. e. if the Terran had enough time to bank full energy on 20+ Ghosts, it was probably not a good choice anyway to head this way. Ultralisks' effectiveness simply starts decreasing beyond some point. While they're viable at the beginning of the late game, I'm not convinced about their uses in split map scenarii in which both players are allowed to bank mass resources.

Killing Infestors with 2 Snipes, down to 3, is basically irrelevant since Infestors will safely stand behind Broodlords if you can no longer kill them as fast and efficiently as now. I mean, even with the current Snipe, facing 15+ Broodlords with Infestor (and Overseers!) support is still a challenge even for the best players in the world—so how are Terrans supposed to deal with this if this silly change goes through? As stated above, even tech switch problems aside, Vikings, Thors and Ravens all have obvious problems. Sniping is a bit like a race against the clock anyway, since the longer your Ghosts take to kill Broodlords, the more Broodlords, Broodlings and your own Siege Tanks hurt them, so going up to 10 hits from 6 is simply stupid. Once again, even with the current Snipe, a lot of Terrans have difficulties in late game, because as stated above managing your Ghost squad is not easy at all—even pros fail it sometimes, so how are people with only two arms supposed to deal with this? And for people who will answer “don't let this happen,” do you realize how stupid it would be if one race had close to no chance by late game against some armies? All races should have fair chances to win by lategame, even against “the ultimate army”. This Snipe change simply means that Zergs will now be able to turtle into 20+ Broodlords with Corruptors/Infestors support, and then laugh at you because you won't have any efficient tool to deal with this.

On February 13 2012 02:17 lowercase wrote:


No, they haven't. In fact many BW pros have mentioned they will not consider changing to SC2 until it stops being "Terrancraft."

On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:

No, you are wrong.

I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership.

If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts.

And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense."

Think about this.

On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:

But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races.

And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it.
Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit
Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it.
Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it.
Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it.

At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS"

On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:

Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50"

And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing.

What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools.