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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 13 2012 04:16 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:07 Remi wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 01:08 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
Did you watch Whitera and HongUn play carriers?
Why dont zegling/bling counter carriers?
And no, I havent seen BCs in TvZ even once after beta. I'm aware of the TvT situation, but thats a MU, where balance is a non issue.
Compared to the late game standard play PvZ (almost every game with BL/Inf you will see toss going for Mamaship), ravens are non existent.
Try, fail, try some more! This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran. Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense. No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? Moreover, if you analyse Brood War with the same logic, you will come to conclusion that it's deeply imbalanced, after-all majority of champions have been and still are (Flash) terran users. Problem is, when trying to balance around MVP and MMA, is like balancing around Flash, maybe you will get to a point were Flash terran will be balanced, but all other terrans will be royally screwed. And thats the feeling I get from current state in SC2, while MVP and MMA continue to win championship, almost everyone else have almost no chance, for examples just look in foreigner scene. And that is not, what Blizz is doing. In fact, in BW, there were only a handful of terran players, who could pull of pimpest plays. And therefore every spectator would immediately recognize, that in fact this is a great player breaking the game, instead of an ordinary player abusing OP stuff. The difference being, that there are many things in BW only Flash can do. In SC2, there are many things MVP does, and that lead to an undeserved win, which even Code B players can replicate. And such things need to be nerfed.
Rofl, that could be said to all races.
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On February 13 2012 04:15 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:11 ZenithM wrote:On February 13 2012 03:58 Consummate wrote:On February 13 2012 03:51 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
No, you are wrong.
I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership.
If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts.
And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense."
Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? I wouldnt say, that NA and E terran players are bad, but that they tend to play the race the wrong way. I've heard countless times, that Korean ladder is far more aggressive, and aggression is what the terran race seems to be designed for. Thus, Koreans have much more success with the race. Playing the wrong way is the same as saying they are bad. If you smash your head on your keyboard to type rather than use your fingers and everything comes out nonsensical, you are bad at typing. 6 players out of the 10 highest ranked EU GM are Terran. For all our random laddering players complaining, take note, Terran is still the best ladder race. Just checked, lol. Thats a fun fact indeed.
Interesting but if we look at the Korean Server, we will find in the Top 20:
11 Protoss
5 Zerg
4 Terran
Or if we turn to the American server, we will find in the Top 20:
7 Zerg
7 Protoss
6 Terran
Or if we just go from Rank 20 to Rank 50 on the European server that you mention, there are only 7 Terrans to be found:
The reality is that some of the best players play Terran. Clearly, the success that the Top Terran players have has less to do with the race and more to do with their own skill. If the former were true, we would see a disproportionate amount of Terran players in GM league in every server, or in the Top 20 Ranks of each of these servers.
But we don't see that. Terran is the least represented race in GM/Master league in every server (with the exception of Master league in KR).
The reality is that players like MVP, OgsforGG, MMA can offrace and compete at the highest levels with ANY race. The best players do currently play Terran. Let's face it. But if we mis-interpret these racial stats (since most people look definitively to Pro stats to determine balance), then your conclusions are Flawed.
Of course the top Terrans win more. These are the best players. And since there are, on average, fewer Terran players in every server, the stats of these Elite Terrans are Highlighted. But to conflate the stats of a few, very skilled Terrans, and over-generalize them to the Terran race or the current state of TvP, TvZ is to commit a logical appeal of composition, and therefore, you are Wrong.
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On February 13 2012 04:16 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:07 Remi wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 01:08 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
Did you watch Whitera and HongUn play carriers?
Why dont zegling/bling counter carriers?
And no, I havent seen BCs in TvZ even once after beta. I'm aware of the TvT situation, but thats a MU, where balance is a non issue.
Compared to the late game standard play PvZ (almost every game with BL/Inf you will see toss going for Mamaship), ravens are non existent.
Try, fail, try some more! This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran. Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense. No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? Moreover, if you analyse Brood War with the same logic, you will come to conclusion that it's deeply imbalanced, after-all majority of champions have been and still are (Flash) terran users. Problem is, when trying to balance around MVP and MMA, is like balancing around Flash, maybe you will get to a point were Flash terran will be balanced, but all other terrans will be royally screwed. And thats the feeling I get from current state in SC2, while MVP and MMA continue to win championship, almost everyone else have almost no chance, for examples just look in foreigner scene. And that is not, what Blizz is doing. In fact, in BW, there were only a handful of terran players, who could pull of pimpest plays. And therefore every spectator would immediately recognize, that in fact this is a great player breaking the game, instead of an ordinary player abusing OP stuff. The difference being, that there are many things in BW only Flash can do. In SC2, there are many things MVP does, and that lead to an undeserved win, which even Code B players can replicate. And such things need to be nerfed.
Your logic makes absolutely no sense. If what you say is true, then those Code B players would be in Code S no? Mvp has been the only consistently dominant Terran in SC2. To discount him and just say he 'abuses OP stuff' is just plain ridiculous.
The strangest thing about this snipe nerf is that Code S zergs have already shown that you can deal with it. Citing Mvp vs July is crazy considering the skill gap difference + the fact that any objective viewer can see that July played extremely poorly and completely threw away his ultras. Leenock and other high level zergs have already shown that with good control you can do more than fine vs ghosts.
That's the weirdest thing about the snipe (and phoenix change). It's hard to tell what player set they're balancing around... because it's definitely not the pros or even Masters. This is the first patch (IMO) that is a head-scratcher.
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On February 13 2012 04:07 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 01:08 PureBalls wrote:On February 12 2012 21:25 xongnox wrote:
[quote]
lol
We experimented them since beta, dude.
For a raven exemple you can see Brat_Ok vs Nestea on shakuras @ blizzcon.
Beastyqt or even Kas incorporate them more and more in their late game vs Z/T.
For BC.... TLO, Beastyqt, all T in TvT, used to incorporate them. They are just overall bad vs Z, and we simply need too much costly infrastructure (fusion core, 4 starport, some more armory and upgrades) to do this non-powerful switch.
Btw zerglings/bling counter BC. Did you watch Whitera and HongUn play carriers? Why dont zegling/bling counter carriers? And no, I havent seen BCs in TvZ even once after beta. I'm aware of the TvT situation, but thats a MU, where balance is a non issue. Compared to the late game standard play PvZ (almost every game with BL/Inf you will see toss going for Mamaship), ravens are non existent. Try, fail, try some more! This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran. Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense. No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? Moreover, if you analyse Brood War with the same logic, you will come to conclusion that it's deeply imbalanced, after-all majority of champions have been and still are (Flash) terran users. Problem is, when trying to balance around MVP and MMA, is like balancing around Flash, maybe you will get to a point were Flash terran will be balanced, but all other terrans will be royally screwed. And thats the feeling I get from current state in SC2, while MVP and MMA continue to win championship, almost everyone else have almost no chance, for examples just look in foreigner scene.
This is so true. You can either balance the Korean Terrans and have every other Terran be screwed, or you can balance the masses and have the Korean Terrans screwed.
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On February 13 2012 04:25 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:15 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 13 2012 04:11 ZenithM wrote:On February 13 2012 03:58 Consummate wrote:On February 13 2012 03:51 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:
[quote]
But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races.
And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it.
Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit
Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it.
Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it.
Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it.
At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? I wouldnt say, that NA and E terran players are bad, but that they tend to play the race the wrong way. I've heard countless times, that Korean ladder is far more aggressive, and aggression is what the terran race seems to be designed for. Thus, Koreans have much more success with the race. Playing the wrong way is the same as saying they are bad. If you smash your head on your keyboard to type rather than use your fingers and everything comes out nonsensical, you are bad at typing. 6 players out of the 10 highest ranked EU GM are Terran. For all our random laddering players complaining, take note, Terran is still the best ladder race. Just checked, lol. Thats a fun fact indeed. Interesting but if we look at the Korean Server, we will find in the Top 20:11 Protoss 5 Zerg 4 Terran Or if we turn to the American server, we will find in the Top 20:7 Zerg 7 Protoss 6 Terran Or if we just go from Rank 20 to Rank 50 on the European server that you mention, there are only 7 Terrans to be found: The reality is that some of the best players play Terran. Clearly, the success that the Top Terran players have has less to do with the race and more to do with their own skill. If the former were true, we would see a disproportionate amount of Terran players in GM league in every server, or in the Top 20 Ranks of each of these servers. But we don't see that. Terran is the least represented race in GM/Master league in every server (with the exception of Master league in KR). The reality is that players like MVP, OgsforGG, MMA can offrace and compete at the highest levels with ANY race. The best players do currently play Terran. Let's face it. But if we mis-interpret these racial stats (since most people look definitively to Pro stats to determine balance), then your conclusions are Flawed.
CHINA - 7 terrans in top 10
Europe - 6 terrans in top 10
Korea - 4 terrans in top 10 (balanced)
NA - 5 terrans out of 10
Numbers speaks for them self.
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There is one thing I don't understand though. How come nobody is trying to switch to Terran? I'm starting now because top Terran players are cool and Terran is cool and (apparently) challenging. Isn't there anyone interested by some kind of Hard Mode of SC2? Does everybody only want free wins with as few APM as possible or what?
I don't think it's true and I think most Terrans who switched did so because of TvT. It's not easy to get around the fact that a macro TvT between non-top players can easily last more than 30 minutes. But maybe I'm wrong, is there a lot of people here that have switched from Terran because they think they weren't winning enough?
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Top 10 Global - 5 protos, 4 terran, 1 zerg
Top 10 Korea/Taiwan - 4 terran, 4 protoss, 2 zerg
Top 10 America - 4 zerg, 3 terran, 3 protoss
Top 10 Europe - 6 terran, 3 zerg, 1 protoss
Top 10 China - 6 protoss, 4 terran, 0 zerg
Top 10 SE Asia - 5 terran, 4 zerg, 1 protoss
So the race distribution is quite even among the globe so don't need to whine about terrans not beeing good at high level outside KR.
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On February 13 2012 04:34 demitap wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:25 zmansman17 wrote:On February 13 2012 04:15 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 13 2012 04:11 ZenithM wrote:On February 13 2012 03:58 Consummate wrote:On February 13 2012 03:51 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50"
And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing.
What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? I wouldnt say, that NA and E terran players are bad, but that they tend to play the race the wrong way. I've heard countless times, that Korean ladder is far more aggressive, and aggression is what the terran race seems to be designed for. Thus, Koreans have much more success with the race. Playing the wrong way is the same as saying they are bad. If you smash your head on your keyboard to type rather than use your fingers and everything comes out nonsensical, you are bad at typing. 6 players out of the 10 highest ranked EU GM are Terran. For all our random laddering players complaining, take note, Terran is still the best ladder race. Just checked, lol. Thats a fun fact indeed. Interesting but if we look at the Korean Server, we will find in the Top 20:11 Protoss 5 Zerg 4 Terran Or if we turn to the American server, we will find in the Top 20:7 Zerg 7 Protoss 6 Terran Or if we just go from Rank 20 to Rank 50 on the European server that you mention, there are only 7 Terrans to be found: The reality is that some of the best players play Terran. Clearly, the success that the Top Terran players have has less to do with the race and more to do with their own skill. If the former were true, we would see a disproportionate amount of Terran players in GM league in every server, or in the Top 20 Ranks of each of these servers. But we don't see that. Terran is the least represented race in GM/Master league in every server (with the exception of Master league in KR). The reality is that players like MVP, OgsforGG, MMA can offrace and compete at the highest levels with ANY race. The best players do currently play Terran. Let's face it. But if we mis-interpret these racial stats (since most people look definitively to Pro stats to determine balance), then your conclusions are Flawed. CHINA - 7 terrans in top 10 Europe - 6 terrans in top 10 Korea - 4 terrans in top 10 (balanced) NA - 5 terrans out of 10 Numbers speaks for them self.
NA- 3, http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/am
KR - 4, http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/fea
CN - 4, http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/cn
Actually, you're completely wrong. Go check your numbers.
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On February 13 2012 04:29 oxxo wrote:
That's the weirdest thing about the snipe (and phoenix change). It's hard to tell what player set they're balancing around... because it's definitely not the pros or even Masters. This is the first patch (IMO) that is a head-scratcher.
That's one of the brightest posts in this thread. I couldn't find a better way to describe the reality, that most of the p/z players here refuse to accept. Ghosts are nowhere near the hardcounter to every zerg unit, as it is described so often. Ghosts are the only unit that really counters Broodlords. To nerf their main dmg against those to nearly 50% ist just a joke. How would Protoss players react if Immortal Dmg vs Armored would be reduced to 30 or 25? It would seem like a fuckin joke to me, if it not was posted on the official battle net page. :-(
TvP lategame seems to be a mess right now. TvZ is going to be soon!
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On February 13 2012 04:16 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:07 Remi wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 01:08 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
Did you watch Whitera and HongUn play carriers?
Why dont zegling/bling counter carriers?
And no, I havent seen BCs in TvZ even once after beta. I'm aware of the TvT situation, but thats a MU, where balance is a non issue.
Compared to the late game standard play PvZ (almost every game with BL/Inf you will see toss going for Mamaship), ravens are non existent.
Try, fail, try some more! This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran. Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense. No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? Moreover, if you analyse Brood War with the same logic, you will come to conclusion that it's deeply imbalanced, after-all majority of champions have been and still are (Flash) terran users. Problem is, when trying to balance around MVP and MMA, is like balancing around Flash, maybe you will get to a point were Flash terran will be balanced, but all other terrans will be royally screwed. And thats the feeling I get from current state in SC2, while MVP and MMA continue to win championship, almost everyone else have almost no chance, for examples just look in foreigner scene. And that is not, what Blizz is doing. In fact, in BW, there were only a handful of terran players, who could pull of pimpest plays. And therefore every spectator would immediately recognize, that in fact this is a great player breaking the game, instead of an ordinary player abusing OP stuff. The difference being, that there are many things in BW only Flash can do. In SC2, there are many things MVP does, and that lead to an undeserved win, which even Code B players can replicate. And such things need to be nerfed.
But the funny thing is no Code B player has replicated what MVP did, surely not with ghost, not even other Code S players have, they have tried and most of them have failed miserably, like ForGG against Leenock, and I for one have not see quality MVP level ghost use by foreigner terran so far. So it comes to if its Flash its OK, but if its MVP its imbalanced argument at the end. Why? Because we know BW is balanced therefore any innovation and extraordinary use of units or strategy is tribute to skill, but because majority opinion is that SC2 is not balanced as BW, we cannot afford such things to exist, they must be nerfed out of existence. I'm afraid that, with such a view been adopted even by Blizzard under users pressure, we are stifling SC2 strategical development, just imagine if every innovative strategy discovered in BW ,such as Bisu build or Queen build, were nerfed by vigilante developers, how poorer would BW looked today. That is my biggest concern atm, not some trivial snipe nerf or phoenix buff.
Give it time, don't press charges of imbalance and you may be pleasantly surprised.
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On February 13 2012 04:25 zmansman17 wrote:
The reality is that players like MVP, OgsforGG, MMA can offrace and compete at the highest levels with ANY race. The best players do currently play Terran. Let's face it. But if we mis-interpret these racial stats (since most people look definitively to Pro stats to determine balance), then your conclusions are Flawed.
You need a source for that, or it's what we generally call bullshit. Emphasis added. I don't believe any of those players have offraced in a top-level tournament and done well.
Honestly, I think that the majority of the problem is that Terran is for the first time being put under really heavy strain as a race, and Terran players aren't used to it. For a long, long time, the Terran race has been ridiculously dominant. Anyone remember BFH, which went pretty much unchanged from beta until suddenly a year after release Terran players realized that they were broken and abused the hell out of them until they got nerfed? Or the 1-1-1, which took ages to surface and took the TvP matchup by storm until a Blizzard patch turned it from a near-autowin build into a very strong all-in (compare it to the 4gate, which is now completely nonexistant with the exception of Tal'Darim Altar PvP)? Terran has been overpowered for a long, long time, and the bag of tricks is still not empty. Ravens in particular might have some value in lategame TvZ, and qxc's lategame Reaper usage hasn't been fully fleshed out yet. Shouts of "Terran is underpowered!" are far too early right now. Give Terran a little time to adjust, and we'll see how the balance will play out.
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On February 13 2012 04:23 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:16 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 04:07 Remi wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:
[quote]
This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran.
Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense.
No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? Moreover, if you analyse Brood War with the same logic, you will come to conclusion that it's deeply imbalanced, after-all majority of champions have been and still are (Flash) terran users. Problem is, when trying to balance around MVP and MMA, is like balancing around Flash, maybe you will get to a point were Flash terran will be balanced, but all other terrans will be royally screwed. And thats the feeling I get from current state in SC2, while MVP and MMA continue to win championship, almost everyone else have almost no chance, for examples just look in foreigner scene. And that is not, what Blizz is doing. In fact, in BW, there were only a handful of terran players, who could pull of pimpest plays. And therefore every spectator would immediately recognize, that in fact this is a great player breaking the game, instead of an ordinary player abusing OP stuff. The difference being, that there are many things in BW only Flash can do. In SC2, there are many things MVP does, and that lead to an undeserved win, which even Code B players can replicate. And such things need to be nerfed. Rofl, that could be said to all races.
????
It's the fucking process of balancing the game. Things that even a bad player can pull off, and win a game easily without the opponent being able to do anything against it, should be nerfed and are being nerfed. And this, of course, is being done with every race. I really thought that this is self explanatory, but good that you've pointed it out. Here, have a cookie.
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On February 13 2012 04:35 ZenithM wrote:
There is one thing I don't understand though. How come nobody is trying to switch to Terran? I'm starting now because top Terran players are cool and Terran is cool and (apparently) challenging. Isn't there anyone interested by some kind of Hard Mode of SC2? Does everybody only want free wins with as few APM as possible or what?
I don't think it's true and I think most Terrans who switched did so because of TvT. It's not easy to get around the fact that a macro TvT between non-top players can easily last more than 30 minutes. But maybe I'm wrong, is there a lot of people here that have switched from Terran because they think they weren't winning enough?
Its a vastly different race so I think people get flustered very fast when trying to learn it. Trying to learn all of the micro is very challenging. Marine splitting/stutter stepping/dropping/siege tank leap frogging. Its also very hard to get in a mindset of ending the game earlier rather than relying on BL's or Colossus to do the job for you in the late game.
On top of this people tend to not switch to the race that gets nerfed every patch.
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Though ladder rankings can be helpful in viewing the big picture of balance, you always have to take it with a grain of salt. you guys are all posting these statistics of how many PTZ's are in the top __ of ladder. But anyone who looks at the names ie ostojiy in 2 out of 5 of the top 5 Americas, can see that ladder is not the best representation of who is the best.
no offense to ostojiy who is an amazing player who im cool with. but i do not believe you are truly that rank in skill in the Americas.
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On February 13 2012 04:41 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:35 ZenithM wrote:
There is one thing I don't understand though. How come nobody is trying to switch to Terran? I'm starting now because top Terran players are cool and Terran is cool and (apparently) challenging. Isn't there anyone interested by some kind of Hard Mode of SC2? Does everybody only want free wins with as few APM as possible or what?
I don't think it's true and I think most Terrans who switched did so because of TvT. It's not easy to get around the fact that a macro TvT between non-top players can easily last more than 30 minutes. But maybe I'm wrong, is there a lot of people here that have switched from Terran because they think they weren't winning enough? Its a vastly different race so I think people get flustered very fast when trying to learn it. Trying to learn all of the micro is very challenging. Marine splitting/stutter stepping/dropping/siege tank leap frogging. Its also very hard to get in a mindset of ending the game earlier rather than relying on BL's or Colossus to do the job for you in the late game. On top of this people tend to not switch to the race that gets nerfed every patch.
People tend to not switch race, PERIOD. Off the top of my head, I can think of three players who have switched races: Morrow, TLO, and Artosis. There isn't something deeper about the Terran race being so much more difficult, it's just that players don't usually do full-on race switches.
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is this a hint at the tempest being taken out ?
plzsayyes <3
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On February 13 2012 04:39 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:25 zmansman17 wrote:
The reality is that players like MVP, OgsforGG, MMA can offrace and compete at the highest levels with ANY race. The best players do currently play Terran. Let's face it. But if we mis-interpret these racial stats (since most people look definitively to Pro stats to determine balance), then your conclusions are Flawed.
You need a source for that, or it's what we generally call bullshit. Emphasis added. I don't believe any of those players have offraced in a top-level tournament and done well.
Yeah, pros offrace to joke around (except TLO who takes it on another level  ). Top players all have strong offraces, be it MVP or even MC. Last time on his stream, MC was raping GM KR Protoss with his Terran (albeit not played in the most "macro" way but still :D).
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On February 13 2012 04:42 JiYan wrote:
Though ladder rankings can be helpful in viewing the big picture of balance, you always have to take it with a grain of salt. you guys are all posting these statistics of how many PTZ's are in the top __ of ladder. But anyone who looks at the names ie ostojiy in 2 out of 5 of the top 5 Americas, can see that ladder is not the best representation of who is the best.
no offense to ostojiy who is an amazing player who im cool with. but i do not believe you are truly that rank in skill in the Americas.
The leaked MLG bracket showed that ostojiy defeated 3 top players, one of them being Morrow. I think he is quite good.
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On February 13 2012 04:38 TeeTS wrote:
TvP lategame seems to be a mess right now. TvZ is going to be soon!
TvP is for the first time close to perfectly balanced. But I guess, if you are used to playing with an advantage, you may perceive the current situation as "a mess". And after the next patch, same will be true in regards to TvZ.
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On February 13 2012 04:35 ZenithM wrote:
There is one thing I don't understand though. How come nobody is trying to switch to Terran? I'm starting now because top Terran players are cool and Terran is cool and (apparently) challenging. Isn't there anyone interested by some kind of Hard Mode of SC2? Does everybody only want free wins with as few APM as possible or what?
I don't think it's true and I think most Terrans who switched did so because of TvT. It's not easy to get around the fact that a macro TvT between non-top players can easily last more than 30 minutes. But maybe I'm wrong, is there a lot of people here that have switched from Terran because they think they weren't winning enough?
Yes.
I'll be switching from Terran to Protoss next season. I'm currently Rank 2 Master Terran, but as a result of the series of nerfs to the Terran race, I learned to play the Protoss race earlier this season. It didn't take me long to reach Rank 2 Master as Protoss as well.
Needless to say, my life will be a lot easier next season as I commit to Protoss.
And I'm excited about the potentiality of winning the late game.
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EPT
