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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
Terran nerf, protoss buff. Great. Looks like im switching to toss/zerg come 1.4.3
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 01:08 PureBalls wrote:On February 12 2012 21:25 xongnox wrote:On February 12 2012 21:19 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
There are zerg and toss players, who are experimenting with both. Whitera and HongUn come to mind (carriers).
There are no terrans experimenting with BCs and ravens. lol We experimented them since beta, dude. For a raven exemple you can see Brat_Ok vs Nestea on shakuras @ blizzcon. Beastyqt or even Kas incorporate them more and more in their late game vs Z/T. For BC.... TLO, Beastyqt, all T in TvT, used to incorporate them. They are just overall bad vs Z, and we simply need too much costly infrastructure (fusion core, 4 starport, some more armory and upgrades) to do this non-powerful switch. Btw zerglings/bling counter BC. Did you watch Whitera and HongUn play carriers? Why dont zegling/bling counter carriers? And no, I havent seen BCs in TvZ even once after beta. I'm aware of the TvT situation, but thats a MU, where balance is a non issue. Compared to the late game standard play PvZ (almost every game with BL/Inf you will see toss going for Mamaship), ravens are non existent. Try, fail, try some more! This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran. Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense. No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? I wouldnt say, that NA and E terran players are bad, but that they tend to play the race the wrong way. I've heard countless times, that Korean ladder is far more aggressive, and aggression is what the terran race seems to be designed for. Thus, Koreans have much more success with the race.
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All this talk about which race is easist to macro is insane to me. Its pretty possible to macro almost perfectly for any race, so even if it is inbalenced as far as ease to perfect it really doesn't matter to me. And as someone who plays all 3 races equally the macro mechanics feel pretty balanced overall. Sure the learning curve is a bit different for each one, but once you get passed that, its just the thing you do between the stratagy part of the game.
As for the units, I do believe those deserve some balance. Mules and Phoenix were great fixes. I'm not sure if a fleet beacon upgrade is going to be viable or not, but I'm looking forward to seeing how that works out. For the Ghost though, I think its the right direction but taken too far. My biggest worry about this game will always be it devolving into one unit composition with the same timings for each of the matchups. Nerfing units to unviability will make this game just way too boring. I don't want the ghost to only be viable TvP. I would feel more confertable if they nerfed it half as much as they did.
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On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 01:08 PureBalls wrote:On February 12 2012 21:25 xongnox wrote:On February 12 2012 21:19 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
There are zerg and toss players, who are experimenting with both. Whitera and HongUn come to mind (carriers).
There are no terrans experimenting with BCs and ravens. lol We experimented them since beta, dude. For a raven exemple you can see Brat_Ok vs Nestea on shakuras @ blizzcon. Beastyqt or even Kas incorporate them more and more in their late game vs Z/T. For BC.... TLO, Beastyqt, all T in TvT, used to incorporate them. They are just overall bad vs Z, and we simply need too much costly infrastructure (fusion core, 4 starport, some more armory and upgrades) to do this non-powerful switch. Btw zerglings/bling counter BC. Did you watch Whitera and HongUn play carriers? Why dont zegling/bling counter carriers? And no, I havent seen BCs in TvZ even once after beta. I'm aware of the TvT situation, but thats a MU, where balance is a non issue. Compared to the late game standard play PvZ (almost every game with BL/Inf you will see toss going for Mamaship), ravens are non existent. Try, fail, try some more! This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran. Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense. No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea?
Hahahaha very good point.
But really, lets look at Zerg and Protoss in Korea.
Zerg have DongRaeGu, Nestea and Leenock
Protoss have Genius and MC (Parting and Puzzle possibly based on recent results)
Compare that to Terran.
Terran have MVP, MMA, jjakji, MKP, Bomber, Polt and Supernova (Taeja is worth a mention too)
Without a doubt, Terran is heavily favoured in terms of quality of players.
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On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 01:08 PureBalls wrote:On February 12 2012 21:25 xongnox wrote:On February 12 2012 21:19 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
There are zerg and toss players, who are experimenting with both. Whitera and HongUn come to mind (carriers).
There are no terrans experimenting with BCs and ravens. lol We experimented them since beta, dude. For a raven exemple you can see Brat_Ok vs Nestea on shakuras @ blizzcon. Beastyqt or even Kas incorporate them more and more in their late game vs Z/T. For BC.... TLO, Beastyqt, all T in TvT, used to incorporate them. They are just overall bad vs Z, and we simply need too much costly infrastructure (fusion core, 4 starport, some more armory and upgrades) to do this non-powerful switch. Btw zerglings/bling counter BC. Did you watch Whitera and HongUn play carriers? Why dont zegling/bling counter carriers? And no, I havent seen BCs in TvZ even once after beta. I'm aware of the TvT situation, but thats a MU, where balance is a non issue. Compared to the late game standard play PvZ (almost every game with BL/Inf you will see toss going for Mamaship), ravens are non existent. Try, fail, try some more! This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran. Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense. No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea?
The Euros that play a Korean style do have succes and are dominant, like Kas. But you have to agree that few EU terran play the multi task terran style with harras all over the place and timing attacks.
But if it is as you all say, it's sad that all the geniuses went the terran way early on and now the race is nerfed because of them. Life's a bitch.
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On February 13 2012 03:51 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 01:08 PureBalls wrote:On February 12 2012 21:25 xongnox wrote:
[quote]
lol
We experimented them since beta, dude.
For a raven exemple you can see Brat_Ok vs Nestea on shakuras @ blizzcon.
Beastyqt or even Kas incorporate them more and more in their late game vs Z/T.
For BC.... TLO, Beastyqt, all T in TvT, used to incorporate them. They are just overall bad vs Z, and we simply need too much costly infrastructure (fusion core, 4 starport, some more armory and upgrades) to do this non-powerful switch.
Btw zerglings/bling counter BC. Did you watch Whitera and HongUn play carriers? Why dont zegling/bling counter carriers? And no, I havent seen BCs in TvZ even once after beta. I'm aware of the TvT situation, but thats a MU, where balance is a non issue. Compared to the late game standard play PvZ (almost every game with BL/Inf you will see toss going for Mamaship), ravens are non existent. Try, fail, try some more! This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran. Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense. No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? I wouldnt say, that NA and E terran players are bad, but that they tend to play the race the wrong way. I've heard countless times, that Korean ladder is far more aggressive, and aggression is what the terran race seems to be designed for. Thus, Koreans have much more success with the race.
Playing the wrong way is the same as saying they are bad.
If you smash your head on your keyboard to type rather than use your fingers and everything comes out nonsensical, you are bad at typing.
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This is silly. Atm best sniper is High Templar. Feedback and your ghost is dead. He may also feedback : thor, madpack, raven, banshee, bc. OMG. Be serious :D. Where is logic? You have skill called snipe and you can only snipe templar? However the most funny thing is that if ghost is 3-3 upgraided he deals 26 dmg to light unit. Snipe 25? Snipe nerf is worst idea ever from begining of starcraft 2. Look at nerfs:
reaper nerfed
ghosts nerfed (another nerf on way)
hellions nerfed
tanks nerfed
ravens nerfed
bunkers nerfed
All zergs in the world. Prepare for allins.
P.S. In 1.4.4 patch marins won't have shields and marauders will have 50 hp because zergs can't play.
User was warned for this post
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I am interested to see what the pheonix change will bring. Since there is more incentive to get a fleat beacon, late game carriers? o.O
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On February 13 2012 04:00 bg451 wrote:
I am interested to see what the pheonix change will bring. Since there is more incentive to get a fleat beacon, late game carriers? o.O
This patch change would go hand in hand with a carrier fix/buff.
Blizzard is not that smart as it seems. I guess they worked hard on the Tempest unit and can't let it go now. Buuuuu
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when will this patch be implemented?
I look forward to the APM changes. I'm curious to see what my APM is now, compared to what it was back then when I was plat in season 1 ^^
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On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 01:08 PureBalls wrote:On February 12 2012 21:25 xongnox wrote:On February 12 2012 21:19 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
There are zerg and toss players, who are experimenting with both. Whitera and HongUn come to mind (carriers).
There are no terrans experimenting with BCs and ravens. lol We experimented them since beta, dude. For a raven exemple you can see Brat_Ok vs Nestea on shakuras @ blizzcon. Beastyqt or even Kas incorporate them more and more in their late game vs Z/T. For BC.... TLO, Beastyqt, all T in TvT, used to incorporate them. They are just overall bad vs Z, and we simply need too much costly infrastructure (fusion core, 4 starport, some more armory and upgrades) to do this non-powerful switch. Btw zerglings/bling counter BC. Did you watch Whitera and HongUn play carriers? Why dont zegling/bling counter carriers? And no, I havent seen BCs in TvZ even once after beta. I'm aware of the TvT situation, but thats a MU, where balance is a non issue. Compared to the late game standard play PvZ (almost every game with BL/Inf you will see toss going for Mamaship), ravens are non existent. Try, fail, try some more! This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran. Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense. No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea?
Moreover, if you analyse Brood War with the same logic, you will come to conclusion that it's deeply imbalanced, after-all majority of champions have been and still are (Flash) terran users. Problem is, when trying to balance around MVP and MMA, is like balancing around Flash, maybe you will get to a point were Flash terran will be balanced, but all other terrans will be royally screwed. And thats the feeling I get from current state in SC2, while MVP and MMA continue to win championship, almost everyone else have almost no chance, for examples just look in foreigner scene.
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On February 13 2012 03:58 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:51 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 01:08 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
Did you watch Whitera and HongUn play carriers?
Why dont zegling/bling counter carriers?
And no, I havent seen BCs in TvZ even once after beta. I'm aware of the TvT situation, but thats a MU, where balance is a non issue.
Compared to the late game standard play PvZ (almost every game with BL/Inf you will see toss going for Mamaship), ravens are non existent.
Try, fail, try some more! This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran. Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense. No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? I wouldnt say, that NA and E terran players are bad, but that they tend to play the race the wrong way. I've heard countless times, that Korean ladder is far more aggressive, and aggression is what the terran race seems to be designed for. Thus, Koreans have much more success with the race. Playing the wrong way is the same as saying they are bad.
It's not. If you listen to NA/EU pros, too many of them seem to think, that there should be a "solid macro" style, which in the long run will be better than cheese and timing attacks. The terran race however doesnt seem to be at it's best, when playing such a style. Thus, the NA/E terran players are doing wrong builds and strategies.
But, that doesnt mean that, they lack the mechanical skill to pull aggressive play of, just that, for some reason they choose not to.
I do think, that most NA/E terrans would have far more success, if they chose to copy QXC or Kas.
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On February 12 2012 07:48 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:43 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:38 Phanekim wrote:
you never know how its going to work. people have constnatly nerfed terran. but terran have always risen to the top again because terran had so much untapped potential. so just cause you are buffing zerg doesn't mean terran can't adjust. maybe more raven usage. Very good point, zerg and protoss, use (and often) every unit at their disposal, simply because they have to. Tell a Terran to use a raven and they just laugh because their race is so well designed they have 3 units to a role and only need to use the most powerful one until it gets nerfed. This is LOL funny. Two Zergs (most lilkely) having a conversation about how good terran late game would be if they'd only use Ravens. I laughed so hard reading this.
Yes, this reminds me (Rank 2 master terran player) when I find Protoss players all over forums that respond to the panoply of "TvP Help me threads" with "Make ghost".
I try to challenge any Protoss player to play Terran and attempt to "Make ghost", to magically swing the MU in the Terran's favor. Protoss players then add that I should try to play Protoss. To which I respond that I do play Protoss and am also a Rank 2 Master as Protoss lol.
The reality is I will be switching to Protoss after this patch, starting next season. I have been too stubborn and prideful for a long time now. But this patch is ridiculous. I guess life will be a lot easier for me next season.
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On February 13 2012 03:58 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:51 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 01:08 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
Did you watch Whitera and HongUn play carriers?
Why dont zegling/bling counter carriers?
And no, I havent seen BCs in TvZ even once after beta. I'm aware of the TvT situation, but thats a MU, where balance is a non issue.
Compared to the late game standard play PvZ (almost every game with BL/Inf you will see toss going for Mamaship), ravens are non existent.
Try, fail, try some more! This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran. Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense. No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? I wouldnt say, that NA and E terran players are bad, but that they tend to play the race the wrong way. I've heard countless times, that Korean ladder is far more aggressive, and aggression is what the terran race seems to be designed for. Thus, Koreans have much more success with the race. Playing the wrong way is the same as saying they are bad. If you smash your head on your keyboard to type rather than use your fingers and everything comes out nonsensical, you are bad at typing.
6 players out of the 10 highest ranked EU GM are Terran. For all our random laddering players complaining, take note, Terran is still the best ladder race.
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On February 13 2012 04:08 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:58 Consummate wrote:On February 13 2012 03:51 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:
[quote]
This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran.
Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense.
No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? I wouldnt say, that NA and E terran players are bad, but that they tend to play the race the wrong way. I've heard countless times, that Korean ladder is far more aggressive, and aggression is what the terran race seems to be designed for. Thus, Koreans have much more success with the race. Playing the wrong way is the same as saying they are bad. It's not. If you listen to NA/EU pros, too many of them seem to think, that there should be a "solid macro" style, which in the long run will be better than cheese and timing attacks. The terran race however doesnt seem to be at it's best, when playing such a style. Thus, the NA/E terran players are doing wrong builds and strategies. But, that doesnt mean that, they lack the mechanical skill to pull aggressive play of, just that, for some reason they choose not to. I do think, that most NA/E terrans would have far more success, if they chose to copy QXC or Kas.
What you'ra saying is that he is basically right - there is no solid "macro" way to play terran, no surprise then that terran late game is weak.
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
On February 13 2012 04:02 MaverickSC wrote:
when will this patch be implemented?
I look forward to the APM changes. I'm curious to see what my APM is now, compared to what it was back then when I was plat in season 1 ^^
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On February 13 2012 04:11 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:58 Consummate wrote:On February 13 2012 03:51 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:
[quote]
This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran.
Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense.
No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? I wouldnt say, that NA and E terran players are bad, but that they tend to play the race the wrong way. I've heard countless times, that Korean ladder is far more aggressive, and aggression is what the terran race seems to be designed for. Thus, Koreans have much more success with the race. Playing the wrong way is the same as saying they are bad. If you smash your head on your keyboard to type rather than use your fingers and everything comes out nonsensical, you are bad at typing. 6 players out of the 10 highest ranked EU GM are Terran. For all our random laddering players complaining, take note, Terran is still the best ladder race.
Just checked, lol. Thats a fun fact indeed.
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On February 13 2012 04:07 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 01:08 PureBalls wrote:On February 12 2012 21:25 xongnox wrote:
[quote]
lol
We experimented them since beta, dude.
For a raven exemple you can see Brat_Ok vs Nestea on shakuras @ blizzcon.
Beastyqt or even Kas incorporate them more and more in their late game vs Z/T.
For BC.... TLO, Beastyqt, all T in TvT, used to incorporate them. They are just overall bad vs Z, and we simply need too much costly infrastructure (fusion core, 4 starport, some more armory and upgrades) to do this non-powerful switch.
Btw zerglings/bling counter BC. Did you watch Whitera and HongUn play carriers? Why dont zegling/bling counter carriers? And no, I havent seen BCs in TvZ even once after beta. I'm aware of the TvT situation, but thats a MU, where balance is a non issue. Compared to the late game standard play PvZ (almost every game with BL/Inf you will see toss going for Mamaship), ravens are non existent. Try, fail, try some more! This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran. Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense. No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? Moreover, if you analyse Brood War with the same logic, you will come to conclusion that it's deeply imbalanced, after-all majority of champions have been and still are (Flash) terran users. Problem is, when trying to balance around MVP and MMA, is like balancing around Flash, maybe you will get to a point were Flash terran will be balanced, but all other terrans will be royally screwed. And thats the feeling I get from current state in SC2, while MVP and MMA continue to win championship, almost everyone else have almost no chance, for examples just look in foreigner scene.
And that is not, what Blizz is doing.
In fact, in BW, there were only a handful of terran players, who could pull of pimpest plays. And therefore every spectator would immediately recognize, that in fact this is a great player breaking the game, instead of an ordinary player abusing OP stuff.
The difference being, that there are many things in BW only Flash can do. In SC2, there are many things MVP does, and that lead to an undeserved win, which even Code B players can replicate. And such things need to be nerfed.
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I think what Blizzard are trying to do is shift snipe being used as it is now (to mass counter everything Zerg can make) to what it was "intended to be used for" (to pick off key units and casters on your opponent's side). I agree with that stance and I think snipe was being slightly abused in TvZ.
However, the nerf goes too far. A better alternative would be: to introduce a cooldown timer for snipe; to increase the energy snipe cost but not decrease the damage (or maybe slightly alter it); to look into snipe being very costly (either a long and expensive research time or w/e). Perhaps Blizzard could keep the 25dmg, but increase the range of snipe? (so it truely is "snipe", and could be utilized in a very different way to conventional attacks.
To be honest, I'm ok with forcing Terran to recognise and react more to Zerg late game rather than letting Terrans have the option to mass ghost and counter everything. However I'm afraid that this nerf could render snipe useless and inefficient, which would be a shame imo. Ghosts and ghost micro add an interesting dynamic to the game in general.
Also the phoenix and APM changes are really nice
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EPT
