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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 13 2012 04:47 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:39 Acritter wrote:On February 13 2012 04:25 zmansman17 wrote:
The reality is that players like MVP, OgsforGG, MMA can offrace and compete at the highest levels with ANY race. The best players do currently play Terran. Let's face it. But if we mis-interpret these racial stats (since most people look definitively to Pro stats to determine balance), then your conclusions are Flawed.
You need a source for that, or it's what we generally call bullshit. Emphasis added. I don't believe any of those players have offraced in a top-level tournament and done well. Yeah, pros offrace to joke around (except TLO who takes it on another level  ). Top players all have strong offraces, be it MVP or even MC. Last time on his stream, MC was raping GM KR Protoss with his Terran (albeit not played in the most "macro" way but still :D).
TLO doesn't offrace. He's just onrace for all three races.
But yeah, I was gonna cite MC's ladder offracing as well, although it's not really proof of much of anything aside from saying that some pro players like to mix things up a little. Ladder in general is not the best representation of how good a player is. Only results in money-based events can do that.
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I 'm really really really scared for infestor + broodlor + corruptor now (it was really really imbalanced before people found out about the ghost, even david kim was thinking about a sollution). Mule change is perfect.
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Interesting but if we look at the Korean Server, we will find in the Top 20:
11 Protoss
5 Zerg
4 Terran
Or if we turn to the American server, we will find in the Top 20:
7 Zerg
7 Protoss
6 Terran
Or if we just go from Rank 20 to Rank 50 on the European server that you mention, there are only 7 Terrans to be found:
The reality is that some of the best players play Terran. Clearly, the success that the Top Terran players have has less to do with the race and more to do with their own skill. If the former were true, we would see a disproportionate amount of Terran players in GM league in every server, or in the Top 20 Ranks of each of these servers.
But we don't see that. Terran is the least represented race in GM/Master league in every server (with the exception of Master league in KR).
The reality is that players like MVP, OgsforGG, MMA can offrace and compete at the highest levels with ANY race. The best players do currently play Terran. Let's face it. But if we mis-interpret these racial stats (since most people look definitively to Pro stats to determine balance), then your conclusions are Flawed.
Of course the top Terrans win more. These are the best players. And since there are, on average, fewer Terran players in every server, the stats of these Elite Terrans are Highlighted. But to conflate the stats of a few, very skilled Terrans, and over-generalize them to the Terran race or the current state of TvP, TvZ is to commit a logical appeal of composition, and therefore, you are Wrong.
This is worth examining.
I also think that the patch nerfs to Terran will more than likely change the game in a negative way. Although I will be making the switch to Protoss next season, I imagine that most Top Tier Terrans will just do more 1 and 2 base All-ins on ladder. Since late game is not possible for most American or European Terrans unless you are EmpireKas and have near perfect control, these players will avoid the late game entirely.
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On February 13 2012 04:45 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:41 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 13 2012 04:35 ZenithM wrote:
There is one thing I don't understand though. How come nobody is trying to switch to Terran? I'm starting now because top Terran players are cool and Terran is cool and (apparently) challenging. Isn't there anyone interested by some kind of Hard Mode of SC2? Does everybody only want free wins with as few APM as possible or what?
I don't think it's true and I think most Terrans who switched did so because of TvT. It's not easy to get around the fact that a macro TvT between non-top players can easily last more than 30 minutes. But maybe I'm wrong, is there a lot of people here that have switched from Terran because they think they weren't winning enough? Its a vastly different race so I think people get flustered very fast when trying to learn it. Trying to learn all of the micro is very challenging. Marine splitting/stutter stepping/dropping/siege tank leap frogging. Its also very hard to get in a mindset of ending the game earlier rather than relying on BL's or Colossus to do the job for you in the late game. On top of this people tend to not switch to the race that gets nerfed every patch. People tend to not switch race, PERIOD. Off the top of my head, I can think of three players who have switched races: Morrow, TLO, and Artosis. There isn't something deeper about the Terran race being so much more difficult, it's just that players don't usually do full-on race switches.
I was actually talking about your mildy decent ladder player (diamond and higher), not pros. Why doesn't anyone try out Terran for the challenge? Do Terrans really want to switch to Protoss?As a Protoss, I can tell you that PvT is not funnier than TvP actually (it just wins more probably), I would say that playing macro is boring as hell against T.
All that to say that I don't think difficulty is the reason why we see less Terrans on ladder.
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On February 13 2012 04:57 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:45 Acritter wrote:On February 13 2012 04:41 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 13 2012 04:35 ZenithM wrote:
There is one thing I don't understand though. How come nobody is trying to switch to Terran? I'm starting now because top Terran players are cool and Terran is cool and (apparently) challenging. Isn't there anyone interested by some kind of Hard Mode of SC2? Does everybody only want free wins with as few APM as possible or what?
I don't think it's true and I think most Terrans who switched did so because of TvT. It's not easy to get around the fact that a macro TvT between non-top players can easily last more than 30 minutes. But maybe I'm wrong, is there a lot of people here that have switched from Terran because they think they weren't winning enough? Its a vastly different race so I think people get flustered very fast when trying to learn it. Trying to learn all of the micro is very challenging. Marine splitting/stutter stepping/dropping/siege tank leap frogging. Its also very hard to get in a mindset of ending the game earlier rather than relying on BL's or Colossus to do the job for you in the late game. On top of this people tend to not switch to the race that gets nerfed every patch. People tend to not switch race, PERIOD. Off the top of my head, I can think of three players who have switched races: Morrow, TLO, and Artosis. There isn't something deeper about the Terran race being so much more difficult, it's just that players don't usually do full-on race switches. I was actually talking about your mildy decent ladder player (diamond and higher), not pros. Why doesn't anyone try out Terran for the challenge? Do Terrans really want to switch to Protoss?As a Protoss, I can tell you that PvT is not funnier than TvP actually (it just wins more probably), I would say that playing macro is boring as hell against T. All that to say that I don't think difficulty is the reason why we see less Terrans on ladder.
This simply isn't true. Of my friends list, many of my Rank 1-3 master and GM friends are really fed up with Terran. There are some that aren't going to continue play next season.
There are some like me who will be switching to Toss completely.
As for your claim that PvT is "not funnier" than TvP, I can actually tell you that I think PvT is very easy from the Protoss side. Granted, I may know how to play the MU really well since I main Terran (and offrace as Rank 2 Master Protoss), I don't see how Protoss have trouble with the MU.
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On February 13 2012 04:57 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:45 Acritter wrote:On February 13 2012 04:41 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 13 2012 04:35 ZenithM wrote:
There is one thing I don't understand though. How come nobody is trying to switch to Terran? I'm starting now because top Terran players are cool and Terran is cool and (apparently) challenging. Isn't there anyone interested by some kind of Hard Mode of SC2? Does everybody only want free wins with as few APM as possible or what?
I don't think it's true and I think most Terrans who switched did so because of TvT. It's not easy to get around the fact that a macro TvT between non-top players can easily last more than 30 minutes. But maybe I'm wrong, is there a lot of people here that have switched from Terran because they think they weren't winning enough? Its a vastly different race so I think people get flustered very fast when trying to learn it. Trying to learn all of the micro is very challenging. Marine splitting/stutter stepping/dropping/siege tank leap frogging. Its also very hard to get in a mindset of ending the game earlier rather than relying on BL's or Colossus to do the job for you in the late game. On top of this people tend to not switch to the race that gets nerfed every patch. People tend to not switch race, PERIOD. Off the top of my head, I can think of three players who have switched races: Morrow, TLO, and Artosis. There isn't something deeper about the Terran race being so much more difficult, it's just that players don't usually do full-on race switches. I was actually talking about your mildy decent ladder player (diamond and higher), not pros. Why doesn't anyone try out Terran for the challenge? Do Terrans really want to switch to Protoss?As a Protoss, I can tell you that PvT is not funnier than TvP actually (it just wins more probably), I would say that playing macro is boring as hell against T. All that to say that I don't think difficulty is the reason why we see less Terrans on ladder.
Actually, the same exact reason that pros don't switch race is behind lower-level players not switching race: people get invested in their given race, learn to love it, and very rarely switch. Most players pick their race because they enjoy the aspects of play that race has to offer, and just don't feel at home with the other races. I offrace in 4v4s a fair amount, and I can say that what Terran and Zerg have to offer just don't interest me. I prefer the feeling of playing Protoss. I've tried switching races a couple of times, and always went back to Protoss because it just wasn't fun for me to play Terran and Zerg.
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On February 13 2012 04:39 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:25 zmansman17 wrote:
The reality is that players like MVP, OgsforGG, MMA can offrace and compete at the highest levels with ANY race. The best players do currently play Terran. Let's face it. But if we mis-interpret these racial stats (since most people look definitively to Pro stats to determine balance), then your conclusions are Flawed.
You need a source for that, or it's what we generally call bullshit. Emphasis added. I don't believe any of those players have offraced in a top-level tournament and done well. Honestly, I think that the majority of the problem is that Terran is for the first time being put under really heavy strain as a race, and Terran players aren't used to it. For a long, long time, the Terran race has been ridiculously dominant. Anyone remember BFH, which went pretty much unchanged from beta until suddenly a year after release Terran players realized that they were broken and abused the hell out of them until they got nerfed? Or the 1-1-1, which took ages to surface and took the TvP matchup by storm until a Blizzard patch turned it from a near-autowin build into a very strong all-in (compare it to the 4gate, which is now completely nonexistant with the exception of Tal'Darim Altar PvP)? Terran has been overpowered for a long, long time, and the bag of tricks is still not empty. Ravens in particular might have some value in lategame TvZ, and qxc's lategame Reaper usage hasn't been fully fleshed out yet. Shouts of "Terran is underpowered!" are far too early right now. Give Terran a little time to adjust, and we'll see how the balance will play out.
Yea none of those players have really, and sadly we probably will never see it. But, I still think he is right. We've seen MKP demolish MMA in PvT on GOM TV. MVP plays random on KR ladder and had something like 80-20 record last season. Dragon frequently plays random on KR against GM players. DDE had an insane record with Toss on NA ladder last season something like 170-40. fOrGG has played random on his stream at GM level. I could list more but you get the point. There isn't much empirical data but many of the top Terran players have shown they can be just as good and maybe better when off racing.
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If you look at the winrates from terran you see them dropping VERY HARD when the games enters the 20 min mark. Since ghosts are used 99% of the time lategame (after the 20 min mark), blizzard nerfed terran lategame. Meanwhile terran lategame is so so so so so so bad.
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On February 13 2012 04:11 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:58 Consummate wrote:On February 13 2012 03:51 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 02:51 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 02:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:
[quote]
This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran.
Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense.
No, you are wrong. I can tell you this: when after the infestor DPS buff, first BL/Inf build popped up, most of us toss were bitching how imba it was. Sure, the fungal DPS was nerfed somewhat, but on its own, it wouldnt have done anything against the very strong BL/Inf composition. So, the people who were saying, that toss need to "figure it out" were actually right. And toss did figure it out. The solution was found in the least expected place. The mothership. If someone at that time would have told me, that mothership + archon would one day be toss' standard late game play against zerg, I would have told him, that he's nuts. And if I recall correctly, many toss have said the same things against air play, you are saying now. "The reason XXX don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense." Think about this. But you're assuming that because that was true for Protoss, it's true for terran. They're not the same races. And terrans have tried different things. Thorzain inovated the Thor build way back - Blizzard nurfed it. Morrow with mass early reaper vs Zerg - Blizzard nearly removed the unit Team slayers inovated the blue flame hellion play vs. Zerg - Blizzard nurfed it. Terrans finially started using ghosts vs Toss - Blizzrd nurfed it. Now terrans are innovating with snipe in TvZ late game - Blizzard is about to nurf it. At some point it's not terrans fault for sticking to their basic compositions, Blizzard is saying "STICK WITH YOUR BASIC COMPOSITIONS" Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50" And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing. What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? I wouldnt say, that NA and E terran players are bad, but that they tend to play the race the wrong way. I've heard countless times, that Korean ladder is far more aggressive, and aggression is what the terran race seems to be designed for. Thus, Koreans have much more success with the race. Playing the wrong way is the same as saying they are bad. If you smash your head on your keyboard to type rather than use your fingers and everything comes out nonsensical, you are bad at typing. 6 players out of the 10 highest ranked EU GM are Terran. For all our random laddering players complaining, take note, Terran is still the best ladder race.
I don't see how this is relevant at all.
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On February 13 2012 05:03 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:39 Acritter wrote:On February 13 2012 04:25 zmansman17 wrote:
The reality is that players like MVP, OgsforGG, MMA can offrace and compete at the highest levels with ANY race. The best players do currently play Terran. Let's face it. But if we mis-interpret these racial stats (since most people look definitively to Pro stats to determine balance), then your conclusions are Flawed.
You need a source for that, or it's what we generally call bullshit. Emphasis added. I don't believe any of those players have offraced in a top-level tournament and done well. Honestly, I think that the majority of the problem is that Terran is for the first time being put under really heavy strain as a race, and Terran players aren't used to it. For a long, long time, the Terran race has been ridiculously dominant. Anyone remember BFH, which went pretty much unchanged from beta until suddenly a year after release Terran players realized that they were broken and abused the hell out of them until they got nerfed? Or the 1-1-1, which took ages to surface and took the TvP matchup by storm until a Blizzard patch turned it from a near-autowin build into a very strong all-in (compare it to the 4gate, which is now completely nonexistant with the exception of Tal'Darim Altar PvP)? Terran has been overpowered for a long, long time, and the bag of tricks is still not empty. Ravens in particular might have some value in lategame TvZ, and qxc's lategame Reaper usage hasn't been fully fleshed out yet. Shouts of "Terran is underpowered!" are far too early right now. Give Terran a little time to adjust, and we'll see how the balance will play out. Yea none of those players have really, and sadly we probably will never see it. But, I still think he is right. We've seen MKP demolish MMA in PvT on GOM TV. MVP plays random on KR ladder and had something like 80-20 record last season. Dragon frequently plays random on KR against GM players. DDE had an insane record with Toss on NA ladder last season something like 170-40. fOrGG has played random on his stream at GM level. I could list more but you get the point. There isn't much empirical data but many of the top Terran players have shown they can be just as good and maybe better when off racing.
Again, the only thing that matters is paid competitive play. Everything else is just practice or for fun. You can't make any real competitive judgments off of what players are accomplishing outside of real competitive environments.
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On February 13 2012 01:18 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 01:08 PureBalls wrote:On February 12 2012 21:25 xongnox wrote:On February 12 2012 21:19 PureBalls wrote:On February 12 2012 09:22 Naphal wrote:
so "try carriers" or "try doublenydus" please. There are zerg and toss players, who are experimenting with both. Whitera and HongUn come to mind (carriers). There are no terrans experimenting with BCs and ravens. lol We experimented them since beta, dude. For a raven exemple you can see Brat_Ok vs Nestea on shakuras @ blizzcon. Beastyqt or even Kas incorporate them more and more in their late game vs Z/T. For BC.... TLO, Beastyqt, all T in TvT, used to incorporate them. They are just overall bad vs Z, and we simply need too much costly infrastructure (fusion core, 4 starport, some more armory and upgrades) to do this non-powerful switch. Btw zerglings/bling counter BC. Did you watch Whitera and HongUn play carriers? Why dont zegling/bling counter carriers? And no, I havent seen BCs in TvZ even once after beta. I'm aware of the TvT situation, but thats a MU, where balance is a non issue. Compared to the late game standard play PvZ (almost every game with BL/Inf you will see toss going for Mamaship), ravens are non existent. Try, fail, try some more! This is the same argument people used to make about Mech in TvP. "No it really is good, you terrans just don't want to try it" says the Zerg player who's never played terran. Ravens suck as do Battlecruisers. The reason Terrans don't use them is not because they havn't tried, but because when they did they lost so badly, they realized how stupid that idea was and abandoned it for common sense.
I disagree, I don't think abandoning things so easily is necessarily the right way to go, a lot of people constantly try out traditionally "bad" strategies and make them work because they persist at them and hammer out methods that actually make them work. I myself know quite a few strategies that seemed absolutely foolish and awful until I figured out exactly how to make it work through many games of trial and error.
Now, you specifically mentioned Terran Mech. . . I am of the understanding that Mech is actually really really strong, and yes, I am a Zerg player who barely plays Terran. But let me put it this way, most of the time where I have actually played Terran I have experimented with Mech play because I think it's good and I have been able to dominate both Zerg and Protoss players with it. The times I have lost using Mech it's always been situations where I just played it wrong and caused my own demise, not that Mech itself was weak. So take it as you will, I personally think most of the time people don't use certain strategies because they are limiting themselves mentally and refusing to truly persist into making things work, time and time again people refuse to use perfectly good units and it takes a really long time for the general population to catch on. Warp Prisms were always good, Ghosts were always good, Infestors were always good, Mothership was always good, blah blah blah.
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On February 13 2012 04:34 demitap wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:25 zmansman17 wrote:On February 13 2012 04:15 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 13 2012 04:11 ZenithM wrote:On February 13 2012 03:58 Consummate wrote:On February 13 2012 03:51 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:09 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
Actually, what Blizz is saying, is "we are going to keep nerfing you as long as your win % is not 50"
And if you look at the win % graphs, you will see, that in TvP terran had a 60% win rate in 4 months out of 12, and only in 2 out of 12 did they have a below 50%. And in TvZ its basically the same thing.
What this means, is, that the terran race was way to powerful over all these months. Now you are getting used to working with balanced tools. Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play. The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? I wouldnt say, that NA and E terran players are bad, but that they tend to play the race the wrong way. I've heard countless times, that Korean ladder is far more aggressive, and aggression is what the terran race seems to be designed for. Thus, Koreans have much more success with the race. Playing the wrong way is the same as saying they are bad. If you smash your head on your keyboard to type rather than use your fingers and everything comes out nonsensical, you are bad at typing. 6 players out of the 10 highest ranked EU GM are Terran. For all our random laddering players complaining, take note, Terran is still the best ladder race. Just checked, lol. Thats a fun fact indeed. Interesting but if we look at the Korean Server, we will find in the Top 20:11 Protoss 5 Zerg 4 Terran Or if we turn to the American server, we will find in the Top 20:7 Zerg 7 Protoss 6 Terran Or if we just go from Rank 20 to Rank 50 on the European server that you mention, there are only 7 Terrans to be found: The reality is that some of the best players play Terran. Clearly, the success that the Top Terran players have has less to do with the race and more to do with their own skill. If the former were true, we would see a disproportionate amount of Terran players in GM league in every server, or in the Top 20 Ranks of each of these servers. But we don't see that. Terran is the least represented race in GM/Master league in every server (with the exception of Master league in KR). The reality is that players like MVP, OgsforGG, MMA can offrace and compete at the highest levels with ANY race. The best players do currently play Terran. Let's face it. But if we mis-interpret these racial stats (since most people look definitively to Pro stats to determine balance), then your conclusions are Flawed. CHINA - 7 terrans in top 10 Europe - 6 terrans in top 10 Korea - 4 terrans in top 10 (balanced) NA - 5 terrans out of 10 Numbers speaks for them self.
Yes a sample pool of ten creates the perfect statistic in the world. congratz on being a genius
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On February 13 2012 05:01 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:57 ZenithM wrote:On February 13 2012 04:45 Acritter wrote:On February 13 2012 04:41 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 13 2012 04:35 ZenithM wrote:
There is one thing I don't understand though. How come nobody is trying to switch to Terran? I'm starting now because top Terran players are cool and Terran is cool and (apparently) challenging. Isn't there anyone interested by some kind of Hard Mode of SC2? Does everybody only want free wins with as few APM as possible or what?
I don't think it's true and I think most Terrans who switched did so because of TvT. It's not easy to get around the fact that a macro TvT between non-top players can easily last more than 30 minutes. But maybe I'm wrong, is there a lot of people here that have switched from Terran because they think they weren't winning enough? Its a vastly different race so I think people get flustered very fast when trying to learn it. Trying to learn all of the micro is very challenging. Marine splitting/stutter stepping/dropping/siege tank leap frogging. Its also very hard to get in a mindset of ending the game earlier rather than relying on BL's or Colossus to do the job for you in the late game. On top of this people tend to not switch to the race that gets nerfed every patch. People tend to not switch race, PERIOD. Off the top of my head, I can think of three players who have switched races: Morrow, TLO, and Artosis. There isn't something deeper about the Terran race being so much more difficult, it's just that players don't usually do full-on race switches. I was actually talking about your mildy decent ladder player (diamond and higher), not pros. Why doesn't anyone try out Terran for the challenge? Do Terrans really want to switch to Protoss?As a Protoss, I can tell you that PvT is not funnier than TvP actually (it just wins more probably), I would say that playing macro is boring as hell against T. All that to say that I don't think difficulty is the reason why we see less Terrans on ladder. This simply isn't true. Of my friends list, many of my Rank 1-3 master and GM friends are really fed up with Terran. There are some that aren't going to continue play next season. There are some like me who will be switching to Toss completely. As for your claim that PvT is "not funnier" than TvP, I can actually tell you that I think PvT is very easy from the Protoss side. Granted, I may know how to play the MU really well since I main Terran (and offrace as Rank 2 Master Protoss), I don't see how Protoss have trouble with the MU.
Good for you. It's awesome, that SC2 entails 3 different races, so you can pick the one that suits you best.
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On February 13 2012 05:01 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:57 ZenithM wrote:On February 13 2012 04:45 Acritter wrote:On February 13 2012 04:41 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 13 2012 04:35 ZenithM wrote:
There is one thing I don't understand though. How come nobody is trying to switch to Terran? I'm starting now because top Terran players are cool and Terran is cool and (apparently) challenging. Isn't there anyone interested by some kind of Hard Mode of SC2? Does everybody only want free wins with as few APM as possible or what?
I don't think it's true and I think most Terrans who switched did so because of TvT. It's not easy to get around the fact that a macro TvT between non-top players can easily last more than 30 minutes. But maybe I'm wrong, is there a lot of people here that have switched from Terran because they think they weren't winning enough? Its a vastly different race so I think people get flustered very fast when trying to learn it. Trying to learn all of the micro is very challenging. Marine splitting/stutter stepping/dropping/siege tank leap frogging. Its also very hard to get in a mindset of ending the game earlier rather than relying on BL's or Colossus to do the job for you in the late game. On top of this people tend to not switch to the race that gets nerfed every patch. People tend to not switch race, PERIOD. Off the top of my head, I can think of three players who have switched races: Morrow, TLO, and Artosis. There isn't something deeper about the Terran race being so much more difficult, it's just that players don't usually do full-on race switches. I was actually talking about your mildy decent ladder player (diamond and higher), not pros. Why doesn't anyone try out Terran for the challenge? Do Terrans really want to switch to Protoss?As a Protoss, I can tell you that PvT is not funnier than TvP actually (it just wins more probably), I would say that playing macro is boring as hell against T. All that to say that I don't think difficulty is the reason why we see less Terrans on ladder. This simply isn't true. Of my friends list, many of my Rank 1-3 master and GM friends are really fed up with Terran. There are some that aren't going to continue play next season. There are some like me who will be switching to Toss completely. As for your claim that PvT is "not funnier" than TvP, I can actually tell you that I think PvT is very easy from the Protoss side. Granted, I may know how to play the MU really well since I main Terran (and offrace as Rank 2 Master Protoss), I don't see how Protoss have trouble with the MU.
When I said "fun", I really meant fun, not easy. Don't worry, I have no particular complaint with playing PvT. It's just that the current optimal macro way (double forge turtle into your higher tier units) is, in fact, boring to play with, and play against (I assume).
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On February 13 2012 05:03 Snowbear wrote:
If you look at the winrates from terran you see them dropping VERY HARD when the games enters the 20 min mark. Since ghosts are used 99% of the time lategame (after the 20 min mark), blizzard nerfed terran lategame. Meanwhile terran lategame is so so so so so so bad.
Yeah but Terran early and midgame is so so so so good. They pretty much define the flow of the game. If Terrans can't do enough damage with the tools they have, they have a tough lategame ahead of them. That doesn't seem like a terribly imbalanced thing to me, the race that controls the early flow should have to use that to their advantage to win.
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i still think alot of top level players make to many mistakes. I think this patch is going to be great once people get better at the game.
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On February 13 2012 05:09 bovineblitz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 05:03 Snowbear wrote:
If you look at the winrates from terran you see them dropping VERY HARD when the games enters the 20 min mark. Since ghosts are used 99% of the time lategame (after the 20 min mark), blizzard nerfed terran lategame. Meanwhile terran lategame is so so so so so so bad. Yeah but Terran early and midgame is so so so so good. They pretty much define the flow of the game. If Terrans can't do enough damage with the tools they have, they have a tough lategame ahead of them. That doesn't seem like a terribly imbalanced thing to me, the race that controls the early flow should have to use that to their advantage to win.
So basicly terrans have to allin? Zergs and tosses learned to hold early terran pushes, so the argument that terran early game is so so so good is not true. Terran allins are very very good, but alot of people learned how to counter them.
Also another thing: zerg and toss allins are really strong too, and alot of terrans are suffering hard against them. The "terran early game is so strong"-argument is a myth from the beta. Atm the only really strong about terran early game are allins.
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On February 13 2012 05:07 RedMosquito wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:34 demitap wrote:On February 13 2012 04:25 zmansman17 wrote:On February 13 2012 04:15 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 13 2012 04:11 ZenithM wrote:On February 13 2012 03:58 Consummate wrote:On February 13 2012 03:51 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:25 mlspmatt wrote:
[quote]
Those are two different points. The first was regarding terrans not innovating which as shown above is clearly not true, they have innovated plenty. But coincidence or not, a lot of the terran innovations were nurfed. I'm not suggesting they should not have been, but they were examples of innovative play, a lot of innovative play.
The second point is about win rate. And my earlier point still stands. I'm not suggesting Terran should have a 60% win rate, never did. But I still believe there are more quality Terrans in GSL than the other two races, and in a perfectley balanced game I would expect, at least for the time being, that Terran would have a higher win rate at GSL. You're welcome to disagree. And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? I wouldnt say, that NA and E terran players are bad, but that they tend to play the race the wrong way. I've heard countless times, that Korean ladder is far more aggressive, and aggression is what the terran race seems to be designed for. Thus, Koreans have much more success with the race. Playing the wrong way is the same as saying they are bad. If you smash your head on your keyboard to type rather than use your fingers and everything comes out nonsensical, you are bad at typing. 6 players out of the 10 highest ranked EU GM are Terran. For all our random laddering players complaining, take note, Terran is still the best ladder race. Just checked, lol. Thats a fun fact indeed. Interesting but if we look at the Korean Server, we will find in the Top 20:11 Protoss 5 Zerg 4 Terran Or if we turn to the American server, we will find in the Top 20:7 Zerg 7 Protoss 6 Terran Or if we just go from Rank 20 to Rank 50 on the European server that you mention, there are only 7 Terrans to be found: The reality is that some of the best players play Terran. Clearly, the success that the Top Terran players have has less to do with the race and more to do with their own skill. If the former were true, we would see a disproportionate amount of Terran players in GM league in every server, or in the Top 20 Ranks of each of these servers. But we don't see that. Terran is the least represented race in GM/Master league in every server (with the exception of Master league in KR). The reality is that players like MVP, OgsforGG, MMA can offrace and compete at the highest levels with ANY race. The best players do currently play Terran. Let's face it. But if we mis-interpret these racial stats (since most people look definitively to Pro stats to determine balance), then your conclusions are Flawed. CHINA - 7 terrans in top 10 Europe - 6 terrans in top 10 Korea - 4 terrans in top 10 (balanced) NA - 5 terrans out of 10 Numbers speaks for them self. Yes a sample pool of ten creates the perfect statistic in the world. congratz on being a genius
It's a perfectly legitimate argument against zmansman's top 20 stat.
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On February 13 2012 05:03 Snowbear wrote:
If you look at the winrates from terran you see them dropping VERY HARD when the games enters the 20 min mark. Since ghosts are used 99% of the time lategame (after the 20 min mark), blizzard nerfed terran lategame. Meanwhile terran lategame is so so so so so so bad.
Yeah I would love to have access to these statistics after a point in time.
For example,
If Terran wins the game, how often is that game:
>5 minutes
>10 minutes
>20 minutes
>40 minutes
I can only add anecdotal experience as a Rank 2 master, but I win late game TvP, or TvZ at about 20%. I can be way ahead on econ., even if I have a 2nd FE early in a game versus P (as a response to nexus first) and still lose these games. Terran just doesn't have a good mineral dump (zergs = macro hatches, toss = tons of warpgates, cannons). Also, Terran can't replenish their army in the same way as Zerg or Protoss. So if your army dies, most likely, you just lost the game.
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On February 13 2012 05:12 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 05:07 RedMosquito wrote:On February 13 2012 04:34 demitap wrote:On February 13 2012 04:25 zmansman17 wrote:On February 13 2012 04:15 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 13 2012 04:11 ZenithM wrote:On February 13 2012 03:58 Consummate wrote:On February 13 2012 03:51 PureBalls wrote:On February 13 2012 03:39 mlspmatt wrote:On February 13 2012 03:35 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
And I do disagree. In fact, I think that all this "terran players are simply better" nonsense comes from the fact, that the race was too powerful all this time, which made it appear as if terran players were better, because they are winning more, while all along they are doing it by abusing overpowered features of the race. If the Terran race is so overpowered and dominant, how do you explain the lack of terran dominance in Europe and NA. It's only in Korea. Would you suggest that the Zerg and Protoss players are better in NA and Europe, but at the same time claim that isn't the case with terran in Korea? I wouldnt say, that NA and E terran players are bad, but that they tend to play the race the wrong way. I've heard countless times, that Korean ladder is far more aggressive, and aggression is what the terran race seems to be designed for. Thus, Koreans have much more success with the race. Playing the wrong way is the same as saying they are bad. If you smash your head on your keyboard to type rather than use your fingers and everything comes out nonsensical, you are bad at typing. 6 players out of the 10 highest ranked EU GM are Terran. For all our random laddering players complaining, take note, Terran is still the best ladder race. Just checked, lol. Thats a fun fact indeed. Interesting but if we look at the Korean Server, we will find in the Top 20:11 Protoss 5 Zerg 4 Terran Or if we turn to the American server, we will find in the Top 20:7 Zerg 7 Protoss 6 Terran Or if we just go from Rank 20 to Rank 50 on the European server that you mention, there are only 7 Terrans to be found: The reality is that some of the best players play Terran. Clearly, the success that the Top Terran players have has less to do with the race and more to do with their own skill. If the former were true, we would see a disproportionate amount of Terran players in GM league in every server, or in the Top 20 Ranks of each of these servers. But we don't see that. Terran is the least represented race in GM/Master league in every server (with the exception of Master league in KR). The reality is that players like MVP, OgsforGG, MMA can offrace and compete at the highest levels with ANY race. The best players do currently play Terran. Let's face it. But if we mis-interpret these racial stats (since most people look definitively to Pro stats to determine balance), then your conclusions are Flawed. CHINA - 7 terrans in top 10 Europe - 6 terrans in top 10 Korea - 4 terrans in top 10 (balanced) NA - 5 terrans out of 10 Numbers speaks for them self. Yes a sample pool of ten creates the perfect statistic in the world. congratz on being a genius It's a perfectly legitimate argument against zmansman's top 20 stat.
It is a legitimate argument for him to make. The problem is that his statistics are wrong.
See:
NA- 3, http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/am
KR - 4, http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/fea
CN - 4, http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/cn
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EPT
