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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 02:26 Xanbatou wrote:
Is anyone else worried about the phoenix range buff? With a range advantage and the ability to shoot while moving, all mutas on the field pretty much become useless. The move speed for phoenix is 4.25 and the move speed for mutalisks is 3.75. If your mutas get spotted out of position of your own anti-air, they pretty much will all die.
Its not thaaaat simple.
A lot of zerg players get a few corruptors with their mutas.
And the protoss players will have to make a fleet beacon (which isnt cheap) and then research it.
It still has enough room for Mutas to do serious eco damage.
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On February 11 2012 02:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:24 Stiluz wrote:
Yey, a good balance patch! Ghosts still viable lategame vs Zerg, but does not destroy both BL and Ultras as fast as before. Protoss gets a bit more efficient for dealing with Mutas. Everybody's happy now :D I agree. Ghosts will still be far from useless. EMP is still very important, despite the nerf it got. Snipe will still be vital, despite the nerf it's getting now too. I just think that now, Terran will need to be a bit more selective on what to snipe in an army, instead of "fuck it, everything!" ^^
Give me 1 reason to make ghosts instead of vikings against BL now.
The only reason to make ghosts in TvZ now is EMP for infestors. And it will be 2 or 4 max.
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Interesting changes, will be interested to see if pheonixes get more popular or not, although I don't really see the change doing all that much.
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Italy12248 Posts
Interesting changes. I don't know about lategame tvz as i don't play the matchup, but gold mules and phoenix range are pretty nice.
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Good changes overall. I think Snipe nerf is a little bit too harsh though. TvZ i very balanced at the moment, and while i agree that it might have been a little too strong in its current form I think almost halving the damage it too hard. Make it 35+10 vs psionic instead. That way it doesn't evaporate BLs, but still does significant damage.
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Really great changes, can't wait to play!
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Mule change is great.
I think I would prefer if snipe did reduced damage to massive units. The fact that you can't even 1-shot a ling or bane with a snipe attack seems pretty silly.
Phoenix upgrade seems good to me. Although, with 7 range it would be able to kite BCs, VRs and Corruptors, which would be kind of cool. That might be too much, though.
APM changes are great, I'm glad both values are going to be included.
Edit: Also, I hope we will eventually see phoenix's kiting phoenixes in PvP.
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On February 11 2012 02:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:28 BeeNu wrote:On February 11 2012 02:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 11 2012 02:24 Stiluz wrote:
Yey, a good balance patch! Ghosts still viable lategame vs Zerg, but does not destroy both BL and Ultras as fast as before. Protoss gets a bit more efficient for dealing with Mutas. Everybody's happy now :D I agree. Ghosts will still be far from useless. EMP is still very important, despite the nerf it got. Snipe will still be vital, despite the nerf it's getting now too. I just think that now, Terran will need to be a bit more selective on what to snipe in an army, instead of "fuck it, everything!" ^^ It's basically the same thing that happened with Infestors and High Templar, Blizz buffed them>people massed them for everything>blizzard nerfs them>people still use them just more selectively. Well I don't exactly recall when high templar got buffed (I know their range got nerfed and amulet got removed), but I do think that units in general should be used selectively and should fill important niches in unit compositions, as opposed to "I'm going to build this unit because it will be incredibly good against everything".
Ghost weren't something you could jus start building and whatever.
Transitioning into ghost from marine tank play is not as easy as going Broodlord tech. That's why terran still make viking while massing some ghost.
Remove shakuras and more than half of the game where ghost kill everything disapear.
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On February 11 2012 02:18 J.E.G. wrote:Phoenix range is a good idea, but from the fleetbeacon????
Fleatbeacon is already 300/200, so this will pretty much be the most expensive range upgrade in the game, before you even factor the actual cost of the upgrade  Maybe more carrier play will come from this though, which would be cool. EDIT: While thinking about other range upgrades, I can only think of Colossus and Hydralisks. Are these really the only two range upgrades in the game? I feel like range upgrades added a lot of depth to the stages of the game in BW... idk. Seems weird that are only two, if that really is the case. BW had marine, dragoon, goliath, observer vision, and hydralisk. hmm
As a Protoss player who has a decent amount of trouble against mutalisks, I'm willing to take what I can get. Don't worry ^^
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This is the worst patch switch i've ever seen in my life....snipe decreased that much what a joke. Zerg late game is now the best vs terran...and sad part is it already was strong as it is...
im seriously switching to zerg...
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yay my apm will go back up to around 100 lol
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On February 11 2012 02:31 archangel967 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:29 JeffGoldblum wrote:
Sometimes I seriously think David Kim was born with birth defects. "We think Infestor Queen Broodlord wasn't strong enough so DURR LETS NERF THE GHOST HEUEHEUEHE" "OH SHIT A COUPLE OF PROTOSSES IN PRO PLAY HAVE HAD ISSUES RECENTLY WITH MUTAS ON MAPS THAT MUTAS ARE A GOOD CHOICE BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T GO STARGATE oh also phoenixes weren't good enough with their auto micro. So now all tosses will go stargate and no zergs will go spire tech which will lead to tosses blind countering ultras and make the game fucking stupid YAAAY IMA SMART GAME DESIGNER!!" lolumad? Terrans have to change their play-style finally. What a shame. This change will be good for all matchups and should yield some awesome games in the coming months as progamers adjust.
Change to what!? Vikings? Inferstor corruptor says hi!
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Snipe did not become useless. Its still a good way to massively increasing dps against Key zerg units like broodlords if you mix them in sparingly with vikings.
Example: 10 broodlords are scary but 4 or 5 aren't. It might be worth it to invest in 8-10 full energied ghosts to quickly demolish half of the broodlord count so that vikings can easily clean up the rest. This also opens the tech path to nukes which we have already seen are versatile and very useful. They are goddamn cloaking spellcasters that bring death upon individual units. You can't tell me they don't have utility in the matchup.
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More terran nerfs TT____TT
Don't think the ghost change is really necessary
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Great, wasnt there just awhile ago some statstics about game lenghts and win% after certain amount of minutes in certain matchups, and as far as I remember terrans lost much much much more games in lategame against zerg after 20minutes than won? Its so painfull already in lategame against zerg and now it will be even more painfull.............................
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On February 11 2012 02:28 Vejovis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:09 zende wrote:
now TvZ will be exactly like TvP. we'll have to scan every 30 seconds to see if a tech switch is up to be able to react in time. wooooooooo! So to win, you'll need to scout instead of blindly making units, imagine that
yeah, imagine that. not like TvP is poking and scanning to find out if he goes ht/archon or colossus and if you mess that up you're dead. and in TvZ it's not important at all to see what kind of hive tech he goes, to get ghost viking or ghost marauder. a tech switch was deadly even when ghosts were good, and now it's gonna be even scarier. your argument sucks...
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Question remains how often people truly will get fleet beacon only for a upgrade, sure it's a step towards mothership but it's will take a long time to get the upgrade out and the upgrade will only help against mutas and broodlords.
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On February 11 2012 02:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:24 Stiluz wrote:
Yey, a good balance patch! Ghosts still viable lategame vs Zerg, but does not destroy both BL and Ultras as fast as before. Protoss gets a bit more efficient for dealing with Mutas. Everybody's happy now :D I agree. Ghosts will still be far from useless. EMP is still very important, despite the nerf it got. Snipe will still be vital, despite the nerf it's getting now too. I just think that now, Terran will need to be a bit more selective on what to snipe in an army, instead of "fuck it, everything!" ^^
Because in the typical lategame scenario, terrans usually have two dozen full energy ghosts in optimal range, far away from banelings or fungals, and ready to snipe each and every unit that happens to move in front of the rifles' sights.
We'll have to see how this plays out live. I'm very skeptical that removing both a viable counter to Broodlord / Ultralisk play AND a "safety net" against lategame tech switches will work well. It's not as if Ghosts are free anyway; especially with how much gas is needed in TvZ anyway for all the other fancy stuff neccessary to deal with Z shenanigans.
This change will turn the Ghost back into a unit with a very specific role (countering casters) and remove the more general combat flexibility / viability it had before. Which is a general trend in SC2's balancing concept, apparently.
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I really like the idea of the phoenix range buff, but I think that by the time you can get a Fleet Beacon, stalker/templar/archon is already well within reach (and undoubtedly more versatile than mass phoenix).
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EPT
