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Monetizing Starcraft / LordJerith rant. Thoughts? - Page 22

Forum Index > SC2 General
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xSixGeneralHan
Profile Joined April 2011
United States528 Posts
February 09 2012 21:07 GMT
#421
And please don't try to compare why you get free content from NFL, MLB, NBA, etc for free and esports should be the same. The models and scale couldn't be more different, it's a completely moot argument.
Team Operations Director for CheckSix Gaming
Duravi
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1205 Posts
February 09 2012 21:07 GMT
#422
If you are going to charge UFC PPV prices I expect the same or better production quality for that money, none of this NASL production garbage. Right now only GSL offers a production that can be compared to UFC, and I wouldn't even say it is necessarily better.
MannerMan
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
371 Posts
February 09 2012 21:09 GMT
#423
Until there is a sufficient base of people with disposable income to spend on SC2, PPV models seem inferior to advertisement driven ones. Especially considering the fact that the demographics they cater to control a lot of spending (via parents, gifts, etc) but do not have large incomes.

If the average viewer were 30 or 35 then maybe PPV would make the most sense.
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 21:10:49
February 09 2012 21:09 GMT
#424
Wow, I actually just listened to the guys rant... he sounds like a total moron. Saying stuff like, "most people watching streams are kids who don't make money, and are probably sucking someone's dick". How exactly does he expect to gain fan support? Not to mention he talks about how he makes bank without actually working at all and cusses every other word while claiming to be "highly educated". No wonder VVV is going nowhere with this guys spearheading that organization.

User was warned for this post
gnatinator
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada169 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 21:13:23
February 09 2012 21:10 GMT
#425
On February 10 2012 06:02 Carnagath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2012 05:57 Scribble wrote:
On February 10 2012 05:51 Carnagath wrote:
On February 10 2012 02:20 LordJerith wrote:
On February 10 2012 02:14 Sapphire.lux wrote:
PPV will make it highly unlikely that new people will get in to SC2 and a very large part of the ones already in will leave. The only outcome, IMO, is complete death.

I don't want to offend anyone but the comparison with MMA is ... wrong, to be gentle. MMA is about two men fighting each other, something that we all did since the day we could walk. Its in our nature as human beings (living beings for that matter). SC2, is a FUCKING VIDEO GAME, a quite complicated one at that. You need a lot of time to understand what the hell is going on at the most basic level, can anybody be so cretin to think that mr Joe will "just give SC2 a shot" (pay for something that he barely understands)

I agree with Liquid`Nazgul on all points.

It will take some visionary thinking to make eSports profitable, just like in any other business.If you can't think of anything other then directly charging the viewer? You die.

I also have to laugh at some posters that present the matra of "spoiled" fans/ charity/ etc. In every little thing in life (and business) is never, ever ever the fault of the "people"/ community. If something fails is the complete and absolute responsibility of those at the top, in other word, bad business-man.

/rant :p


I disagree that SC2 will die or NOT grow if you charge for quality streams. The fans grow because they play the game or are brought on by other fans. This happens regardless.


A guy like you whose approach towards the community is, and I quote, "I'm sick of every one of these whiny little monkeys hanging around on a free stream. Fuck'em. Start chargin'em.", has no position speaking about fans. You belong as far away from the SC2 community as possible and WILL be ostracized and filtered out like the raw sewage that you are sooner rather than later. Don't worry though, there's always a spot for people like you in Kotick's personal marketing posse.


So apparently wanting competitive SC2 to be sustainable makes you a greedy corporate shill?

As a fan with no financial stake in the success or failure of SC2 or e-sports as a whole, I agree with him. What's weird to me is that you are so defensive of the types of people who bitch endlessly in stream chat while they enjoy a free stream.


There are ways to go about monetizing something, some of them more clever than others. What's certain is that pure hatred towards a whole community is far from a healthy start. E-sports are an experimental market, there are no set rules, if you have no personal investment and passion for it all you will manage to do is fuck up everything you touch.


After reading through these quotes I have to say I do not have any respect for LordJerith and his position as head of vVv Gaming. His attitude has no place in the Starcraft community.
LANPartyList.com supports Team Liquid -- Find LAN Parties world wide!
LordJerith
Profile Joined May 2011
United States92 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 21:16:35
February 09 2012 21:14 GMT
#426
On February 10 2012 06:09 SupLilSon wrote:
Wow, I actually just listened to the guys rant... he sounds like a total moron. Saying stuff like, "most people watching streams are kids who don't make money, and are probably sucking someone's dick". How exactly does he expect to gain fan support? Not to mention he talks about how he makes bank without actually working at all and cusses every other word while claiming to be "highly educated". No wonder VVV is going nowhere with this guys spearheading that organization.


I never said anything like that. Come on now. Please quote accurately, that is simply just not true.

As far as it being a rant, it's purpose is to stir the pot. Even if you disagree with how its delivered, I think it's best to stick to the topic of the message itself.


SACtheXchng
Profile Joined January 2011
168 Posts
February 09 2012 21:14 GMT
#427
On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?


I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.

Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball


Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.

If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.

This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS


Chill,

that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.

So here we go again:
Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.

BULLSHIT!!!

If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks.
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now.
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.

I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:

If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.

If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
crms
Profile Joined February 2010
United States11933 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 21:17:59
February 09 2012 21:17 GMT
#428
On February 10 2012 05:44 Boblhead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote:
PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.

The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.

this is soo true, I don't know anyone who actually orders UFC through ppv, all my friends usually just head to the bar



I'm not sure which numbers you're referring too because they report different numbers. They report live attendance (how many people in the stadium), live gate (how much they sold in tickets), BUY RATE (how many purchased the PPV, includes bar purchases) and viewership (how many people they speculate watch based on a lot of factors). The last item viewership could be inflated if they overestimate (I'm sure they do) but the buy rate (how many purchased) isn't inflated.

Also if you go to a bar to watch a UFC PPV, while you, yourself may be saving money, the bars can spend upwards $5,000 PER event. They don't pay the same rate as a private consumer. I'm sure some bars order it without proper licensing but it's illegal.

Anyway, I hope we get away from UFC (mma model) vs eSports soon, they aren't even close. Perhaps you can compare eSports now to MMA from 1999-2002 era.
http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
February 09 2012 21:18 GMT
#429
On February 10 2012 06:14 LordJerith wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2012 06:09 SupLilSon wrote:
Wow, I actually just listened to the guys rant... he sounds like a total moron. Saying stuff like, "most people watching streams are kids who don't make money, and are probably sucking someone's dick". How exactly does he expect to gain fan support? Not to mention he talks about how he makes bank without actually working at all and cusses every other word while claiming to be "highly educated". No wonder VVV is going nowhere with this guys spearheading that organization.


I never said anything like that. Come on now.


Are you serious? I almost quoted you word for word. Good thing your podcast is online so I can find the exact minute and second where you said that. 52:30 and onwards. Come on now.
LordJerith
Profile Joined May 2011
United States92 Posts
February 09 2012 21:18 GMT
#430
On February 10 2012 06:06 Arcanne wrote:
this guy ranting is hilarious


Thanks! It's supposed to be entertaining.
Scribble
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
2077 Posts
February 09 2012 21:18 GMT
#431
On February 10 2012 06:02 Carnagath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2012 05:57 Scribble wrote:
On February 10 2012 05:51 Carnagath wrote:
On February 10 2012 02:20 LordJerith wrote:
On February 10 2012 02:14 Sapphire.lux wrote:
PPV will make it highly unlikely that new people will get in to SC2 and a very large part of the ones already in will leave. The only outcome, IMO, is complete death.

I don't want to offend anyone but the comparison with MMA is ... wrong, to be gentle. MMA is about two men fighting each other, something that we all did since the day we could walk. Its in our nature as human beings (living beings for that matter). SC2, is a FUCKING VIDEO GAME, a quite complicated one at that. You need a lot of time to understand what the hell is going on at the most basic level, can anybody be so cretin to think that mr Joe will "just give SC2 a shot" (pay for something that he barely understands)

I agree with Liquid`Nazgul on all points.

It will take some visionary thinking to make eSports profitable, just like in any other business.If you can't think of anything other then directly charging the viewer? You die.

I also have to laugh at some posters that present the matra of "spoiled" fans/ charity/ etc. In every little thing in life (and business) is never, ever ever the fault of the "people"/ community. If something fails is the complete and absolute responsibility of those at the top, in other word, bad business-man.

/rant :p


I disagree that SC2 will die or NOT grow if you charge for quality streams. The fans grow because they play the game or are brought on by other fans. This happens regardless.


A guy like you whose approach towards the community is, and I quote, "I'm sick of every one of these whiny little monkeys hanging around on a free stream. Fuck'em. Start chargin'em.", has no position speaking about fans. You belong as far away from the SC2 community as possible and WILL be ostracized and filtered out like the raw sewage that you are sooner rather than later. Don't worry though, there's always a spot for people like you in Kotick's personal marketing posse.


So apparently wanting competitive SC2 to be sustainable makes you a greedy corporate shill?

As a fan with no financial stake in the success or failure of SC2 or e-sports as a whole, I agree with him. What's weird to me is that you are so defensive of the types of people who bitch endlessly in stream chat while they enjoy a free stream.


There are ways to go about monetizing something, some of them more clever than others. What's certain is that pure hatred towards a whole community is far from a healthy start. E-sports are an experimental market, there are no set rules, if you have no personal investment and passion for it all you will manage to do is fuck up everything you touch.


I agree that there are better ways to monetize. I'm still not seeing the whole "hatred for an entire community," thing in the quote you posted. That's a pretty kind way to describe the types of people who hang out whining in stream chats.
LordJerith
Profile Joined May 2011
United States92 Posts
February 09 2012 21:20 GMT
#432
On February 10 2012 06:05 Novalisk wrote:
Never liked LordJerith. He acts like a tip-top businessman but has nothing to show for it.


Nothing to show for it? I wouldn't call vVv gaming and all we do "nothing." Too many people work very hard to deliver on all what we do.

Never liking me. . . well. . . that is perfectly fine :-)
karpo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1998 Posts
February 09 2012 21:21 GMT
#433
On February 10 2012 06:14 SACtheXchng wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?


I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.

Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball


Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.

If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.

This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS


Chill,

that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.

So here we go again:
Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.

BULLSHIT!!!

If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks.
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now.
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.

I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:

If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.

If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.


I'm sorry but wtf? You say that someone creating content and wants to charge people for it are the ones to blame? Wanting to get paid for your work is asking for charity?

What do you do? You watch stuff for free and add nothing to the "esport" you watch beside maybe some commercial revenue. Where in the world do you get similar content for free, legally? The entitlement is just astounding, especially when you imply that esports dying would not be due to people being cheap.
LordJerith
Profile Joined May 2011
United States92 Posts
February 09 2012 21:21 GMT
#434
On February 10 2012 06:18 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2012 06:14 LordJerith wrote:
On February 10 2012 06:09 SupLilSon wrote:
Wow, I actually just listened to the guys rant... he sounds like a total moron. Saying stuff like, "most people watching streams are kids who don't make money, and are probably sucking someone's dick". How exactly does he expect to gain fan support? Not to mention he talks about how he makes bank without actually working at all and cusses every other word while claiming to be "highly educated". No wonder VVV is going nowhere with this guys spearheading that organization.


I never said anything like that. Come on now.


Are you serious? I almost quoted you word for word. Good thing your podcast is online so I can find the exact minute and second where you said that. 52:30 and onwards. Come on now.


I NEVER said they were "sucking dick." Yea, you "almost" quoted me alright, lol.
SugarBear
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States842 Posts
February 09 2012 21:22 GMT
#435
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote:
PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.

The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.


Wouldn't that make the number DEFLATED since there would be more people watching in a gym/bar/etc. than if each sale was a single individual?
Staff vVv Gaming | "So what did you do today?" "Oh not much, mined some minerals, harvested some gas, spawned some zergs, the usual"
m4inbrain
Profile Joined November 2011
1505 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 21:30:15
February 09 2012 21:25 GMT
#436
On February 10 2012 06:18 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2012 06:14 LordJerith wrote:
On February 10 2012 06:09 SupLilSon wrote:
Wow, I actually just listened to the guys rant... he sounds like a total moron. Saying stuff like, "most people watching streams are kids who don't make money, and are probably sucking someone's dick". How exactly does he expect to gain fan support? Not to mention he talks about how he makes bank without actually working at all and cusses every other word while claiming to be "highly educated". No wonder VVV is going nowhere with this guys spearheading that organization.


I never said anything like that. Come on now.


Are you serious? I almost quoted you word for word. Good thing your podcast is online so I can find the exact minute and second where you said that. 52:30 and onwards. Come on now.


Im pretty sure that hes saying "sucking of someones' tip" or something like that. Doesnt sound like "dick" to me.

But then again, just hearing this blabbering for like 2 minutes to check what he said, gave me a headache. To be honest? I dont know who he tried to impress, but dicking around and fishing for compliments doesnt really help.

edit: on a more serious note.. Im actually baffled that someone whos swearing and cursing all over the place in a public cast calls himself "highly educated". I actually think its pretty stupid, and your whole "performance" there pretty infantile.

If you want to look serious, be serious. Have a point and explain it. What you did is just "polemics", the kind of talk you do if youre close to clinical death in a bar with 3 friends.
gnatinator
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada169 Posts
February 09 2012 21:26 GMT
#437
On February 10 2012 06:22 SugarBear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote:
PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.

The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.


Wouldn't that make the number DEFLATED since there would be more people watching in a gym/bar/etc. than if each sale was a single individual?

You're kidding yourself if you think UFC PR is counting viewers in that fashion.
LANPartyList.com supports Team Liquid -- Find LAN Parties world wide!
karpo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1998 Posts
February 09 2012 21:26 GMT
#438
On February 10 2012 06:22 SugarBear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote:
PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.

The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.


Wouldn't that make the number DEFLATED since there would be more people watching in a gym/bar/etc. than if each sale was a single individual?


I'm pretty sure bars need to pay more to show the content OR the UFC has some kind of average viewer/bar thing that inflates numbers.
Trentelshark
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada385 Posts
February 09 2012 21:28 GMT
#439
I've stopped paying for PPV @ home and go to bars with friends instead to view UFC. Why? Because like any eSport, the quality of the fights can be a coinflip and $45 to watch garbage when we can spend less on bills @ the bar makes more sense.

That said is he right? Probably, any business model is based off making money at the end of the day. Is it absolutely viable today like UFC? Probably not. Recall UFC's popularity has picked up more since the free series (Ultimate Fighter), and broadcasting of free fight nights here and there. eSports is no different, but eventually will have to transition to a PPV format period as costs increase, etc.
DoomsVille
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada4885 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 21:30:01
February 09 2012 21:29 GMT
#440
What needs to happen is the major organizations out there (MLG, IPL, IEM, NASL etc.) need to get together and work out a system that works for them.

At the moment all of them are just trying to deliver as much content as possible. They are fighting for broadcasting slots, viewers, sponsors, and the time of players. It just isn't sustainable. Some of them will die under the current system. And of course, since one of them doesn't charge, none of them can. How can any justify forcing payment if the others don't? It just doesn't make sense. Ad revenue and sponsors will only take you so far. But you don't create anything sustainable until the viewers are paying for something. With TV you pay for cable, with UFC you pay to watch the fights, with movies you pay for tickets... there is some overarching monetization system. That doesn't exist in SC2.

Unfortunately it can't exist until the major players start co-operating with each other.
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