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On February 10 2012 06:43 halfies wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 06:30 ZasZ. wrote:On February 10 2012 06:14 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2. Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Chill, that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part. So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault. BULLSHIT!!! If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience. I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about: If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game. If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content. You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite. It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish. That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear. your point might be valid if ad revenue didnt entirely support the biggest internet companies im pretty sure if there was a fee to use facebook, it wouldnt be anywhere near as successful as it is now. the same goes for google. its all very well to say that if you dont pay for streams your a 'parasite', but the truth is that the people who watch free streams are the people who enable so many tournaments to take place. unless your telling me that the number of people who pay subscriptions to IPL is enough to support the tournaments and show matches entirely, and that the sponsorship would still be worth the same amount with the lower view count. if you can get something better for free, why should you pay? if gsl had a better quality stream with more ads, id watch it, instead of just torrenting VODs when i hear about a good match, and watching them lag free whenever i want to. its great that you pay for GSL if thats what you want to do, but is sure as shit doesn't make you more supportive of SC2
I don't think everybody here is demanding people pay for streams that players want to broadcast for their own benefit. I am definitely not. I believe ad revenue, sponsorships and quality services like GOMTV are the way to go but nothing will happen unless we keep increasing numbers and watching. The people who watch the free streams are not parasites in any way imho. Increase viewership and things will continue to get bigger and bigger. I do firmly disagree with the actions you take of torrenting a VOD that you really want to see.
To say that paying for GSL doesn't make you more supportive of SC2 compared to downloading a torrent is just laughable... hard to imagine you honestly agree with that sentiment. That is seriously one of the most ridiculous statements I've read in the whole thread.
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On February 10 2012 06:21 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 06:14 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2. Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Chill, that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part. So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault. BULLSHIT!!! If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience. I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about: If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game. If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content. I'm sorry but wtf? You say that someone creating content and wants to charge people for it are the ones to blame? Wanting to get paid for your work is asking for charity? What do you do? You watch stuff for free and add nothing to the "esport" you watch beside maybe some commercial revenue. Where in the world do you get similar content for free, legally? The entitlement is just astounding, especially when you imply that esports dying would not be due to people being cheap.
On February 10 2012 06:30 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 06:14 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2. Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Chill, that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part. So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault. BULLSHIT!!! If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience. I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about: If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game. If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content. You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite. It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish. That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear.
What both of you fail to notice is the last paragraph of my post.
Are they justified to charge for their content? Maybe, maybe not. Who gives a fuck?
That I watch free content legally, but will stop watching if I had to pay for it, doesn't make me a parasite, an entitled spoiled brat, a non working kid who's sucking on someones tit, or whatever insults anyone might want to come up with towards their potential customers (and yes, viewing ads on a free stream = customer, so please don't even go down the "you don't pay so you're no customer path).
I just didn't like the term "Charity" and the associated finger pointing at me for being responsible for ESPORTS' potential death.
If a company (or a whole industry for that matter) goes bankrupt, then it is certainly not the fault of the customers who refused to buy their overpriced products. That some people claim, these customers should buy these products anyways out of moral obligation to the dying industry doesn't make the claim correct. Welcome to capitalism.
I'll spare you guys a Soviet Russia joke.
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On February 10 2012 06:51 SACtheXchng wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 06:21 karpo wrote:On February 10 2012 06:14 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2. Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Chill, that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part. So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault. BULLSHIT!!! If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience. I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about: If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game. If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content. I'm sorry but wtf? You say that someone creating content and wants to charge people for it are the ones to blame? Wanting to get paid for your work is asking for charity? What do you do? You watch stuff for free and add nothing to the "esport" you watch beside maybe some commercial revenue. Where in the world do you get similar content for free, legally? The entitlement is just astounding, especially when you imply that esports dying would not be due to people being cheap. Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 06:30 ZasZ. wrote:On February 10 2012 06:14 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2. Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Chill, that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part. So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault. BULLSHIT!!! If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience. I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about: If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game. If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content. You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite. It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish. That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear. What both of you fail to notice is the last paragraph of my post. Are they justified to charge for their content? Maybe, maybe not. Who gives a fuck? That I watch free content legally, but will stop watching if I had to pay for it, doesn't make me a parasite, an entitled spoiled brat, a non working kid who's sucking on someones tit, or whatever insults anyone might want to come up with towards their potential customers (and yes, viewing ads on a free stream = customer, so please don't even go down the "you don't pay so you're no customer path). I just didn't like the term "Charity" and the associated finger pointing at me for being responsible for ESPORTS' potential death. If a company (or a whole industry for that matter) goes bankrupt, then it is certainly not the fault of the customers who refused to buy their overpriced products. That some people claim, these customers should buy these products anyways out of moral obligation to the dying industry doesn't make the claim correct. Welcome to capitalism. I'll spare you guys a Soviet Russia joke.
So you turned the argument around from "charity" to "donation" and it's all ok? Your argument is just as stupid as the one you dislike.
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On February 10 2012 06:49 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 06:41 deathly rat wrote:On February 10 2012 06:35 m4inbrain wrote:
Just throwing it in there, 22k viewers for IEM right now.
What a base to go for it, ..
Even IF they all of them would pay 10 bucks (which i am absolutely sure they wont), it wouldnt be enough to sustain a sufficient and professional produced stream. By far.
SC2 is a dead horse when it comes to making cash, it was from the beginning. Why? Because its to niche, at least for now. I don't believe this for the following reason. I go to watch my local football team play. They get average 4000 people watching every other week, with ticket prices ranging from £30 to £5 (standing), and some people pay less i bet for different reasons (like youth players etc.) When i consider the overheads for running a professional football team, and that of running a SC2 tournament, i think there is a lot of room to make money in proffesional E-sports. (yes they have some money from higher leagues and tv money but it isn't that much) So, how many of these 4000 viewers are not local? I am a soccerfan as well (although a pretty small club), and the stadium is filled like 75% of the time, with quite more than 4000 ppl. Almost all of them come from my city. I go there to root and cheer for my HOMETEAM. I dont have something like that here in eSports. I like team mouz. I want their games. So with your example, i would have to pay mouz to do that (not arguing if good or not - just saying). But in this case here i would not. So its quite a stretch to compare a local team with a fanbase (and, lets just be honest here from fan to fan, most of them would pay even more, just to bash their heads in after the game), and a game where i have no "emotional" connection to.
In one way you are correct, but I think that for example people who follow GSL know that their favorate players and teams will be represented there. So, if there was a similar situation in international SC2 like for example with MLG then you could follow your favorate team or players there.
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On February 10 2012 06:43 skipdog172 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 06:31 halfies wrote:On February 10 2012 05:31 skipdog172 wrote:On February 10 2012 04:14 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 04:09 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 04:04 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:56 Canucklehead wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:
[quote]
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!  Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear. What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it. My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be. The point is... you don't care about watching Starcraft? Some of us are spectators. I watch NFL/College football and Starcraft. Those are the two competitive things I enjoy watching. You might as well go to a thread about the popularity of baseball and just scream "I DONT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL!! BASEBALL IS JUST SOMETHING I PLAY SOMETIMES! I DONT WANT TO WATCH IT AND NEITHER DO MOST PEOPLE!". Because.. that is basically what you are saying. It isn't adding anything valuable to the conversation. I don't think anybody can deny that theres almost always at least 30+k viewers watching some form of Starcraft. That's pretty much 'at any random time during the day'. Probably more if you counted the people watching VoDs(that we can't get a number for). Do you people realize that many channels can't hit 300k viewers most nights? The very top shows for specific time slots rarely get over 700k-800k viewers. Many networks survive on mostly ~100k/viewers shows, with a few of their 'top' shows getting 200-300k. It isn't that far off from where SC2 peak viewer times sit and it is only growing. I just don't see a point to come in to this thread and go HAHA PPL DONT WATCH STARCRAFT!! yeah, 30k peopel watching SC2. for free. Free how? They are paying for internet, right? I pay my cable company for TV channels that throw advertisements at me. Yeah, clearly 30k isn't enough. The point I was making is that SC2 isn't that far off. Many networks are running shows right now in the mid-afternoon that won't hit 100k viewers. They are still running ads and making enough money off of them. Yeah, clearly we need more viewers.. but its growing. To me, the path is clear... continue to grow the viewer base and the money will keep growing. I mean, we are further along now than we are last year. I'm not saying 30k demands anything... I am saying that it isn't as far off as what is required for SC2 to be shown as an 'obscure sport' like snowboarding, billiards, bowling, curling, womens basketball etc.
Need to be just a bit careful about the 100k viewers thing. Remember for most TV shows, you can tell what your demographic is pretty easily (American, middle-aged male with a pre-disposition for X, Y,Z, disposable income of about $$$). When looking at SC2, it's much harder to get an accurate demographic read. First of all, this is worldwide. You may be marketing to people who cannot even find information or locally buy your brand (Hot6ix comes to mind for the GSL right now), and where your expected return on investment even in intangibles is nil.
When you are looking at targeting a demographic, you are reaching a certain set of people with a certain profile. There isn't much geographically, culturally, or really anything that SC2 fans have in common. We have different values, different cultures, different backgrounds and exposure to different ideas and products. The demographic isn't nearly as uniform as most sponsors would probably like. We do see much support from the one thing we all probably have in common: Computer and electronic equipment. It is apparently the one thing that will resonate with all the viewers. To reach those stable demographic numbers, we need to be a targeted demographic of some type, but what is out profile? It certainly isn't from any one country or geographical area or culture, and these things have a large impact on advertising, expected return, and value for sponsors and advertisers.
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A Venn Diagram of this thread would be amazing. The circles of "People who care enough about Starcraft 2 to read / post on Team Liquid" to "People who wouldn't pay to see Starcraft 2 content, even if that means it will inevitably go away" should really not intersect in the way that they are here.
Also telling, that anyone posting here who has any manner of credentials towards knowledge of the eSports industry, are all saying the same thing.
We are all entitled to precisely 0 content. Anything we get, we should be grateful for. If we want to continue to get it, and if you believe (like me) that eSports and SC2 has the potential to be a superior form of entertainment, vote with your dollars.
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Youll never get people paying 10-20$ per event
Lets look at NASL, sure its only a TL poll but its something
600 people bought the first season of NASL
600*20=12000$, barely cover half of just the sc2 prizepool
then they only had 200 people willing to buy a season 2 ticket
200*20=4000$, now youre not evening a fifth of what the SC2 prizepool is for IEM
Since companies like IEM are already losing money, you arent going to get much better production since theyre still covering their ass
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=243011
Where I got this info
Now if you put an IEM, MLG, IPL, GSL? all in the same month
20+20+20+20 thats 80$ id be spending PER month on starcraft
so lets say all those 600 people bought a ticket for each league this month 80*600=48000$ that all leagues have earned total...and 48k aint shit, 12k a league doesnt cover anything
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On February 10 2012 06:53 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 06:51 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 06:21 karpo wrote:On February 10 2012 06:14 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2. Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Chill, that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part. So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault. BULLSHIT!!! If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience. I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about: If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game. If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content. I'm sorry but wtf? You say that someone creating content and wants to charge people for it are the ones to blame? Wanting to get paid for your work is asking for charity? What do you do? You watch stuff for free and add nothing to the "esport" you watch beside maybe some commercial revenue. Where in the world do you get similar content for free, legally? The entitlement is just astounding, especially when you imply that esports dying would not be due to people being cheap. On February 10 2012 06:30 ZasZ. wrote:On February 10 2012 06:14 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2. Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Chill, that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part. So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault. BULLSHIT!!! If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience. I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about: If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game. If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content. You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite. It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish. That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear. What both of you fail to notice is the last paragraph of my post. Are they justified to charge for their content? Maybe, maybe not. Who gives a fuck? That I watch free content legally, but will stop watching if I had to pay for it, doesn't make me a parasite, an entitled spoiled brat, a non working kid who's sucking on someones tit, or whatever insults anyone might want to come up with towards their potential customers (and yes, viewing ads on a free stream = customer, so please don't even go down the "you don't pay so you're no customer path). I just didn't like the term "Charity" and the associated finger pointing at me for being responsible for ESPORTS' potential death. If a company (or a whole industry for that matter) goes bankrupt, then it is certainly not the fault of the customers who refused to buy their overpriced products. That some people claim, these customers should buy these products anyways out of moral obligation to the dying industry doesn't make the claim correct. Welcome to capitalism. I'll spare you guys a Soviet Russia joke. So you turned the argument around from "charity" to "donation" and it's all ok? Your argument is just as stupid as the one you dislike.
Well, but he has a point. Its not the customers fault if streams would be massively overpriced (25$ and higher). "I charge 1000 dollars per match, come and watch!" two days later: "damn im bankrupt, you damned parasites, fuck off". Vastly exaggerated, ofc, but you will know what i mean and i guess thats his point.
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On February 10 2012 06:41 chadissilent wrote:A few 1st/2nds in local LANs and a 4th place in 1 large tournament taking place the same weekend as MLG. I have more 1st/2nd in local LANs than all of vVv combined, apparently..
Come on now. . . lol. . .
We are the most accomplished console organization in the world with top 4 finishes on 4 continents. . . You can not like us, but be fair about it. WCG, MLG, XL, these are not "local lans" lol. (Unless you are ferring only to SC2).
The point is we DO have something to show for our efforts. Again, you can hate all you want, but be fair. Our SC division was never built to be like EGs. So, yes, in SC2 we are nowhere near any of the traditional eSports orgs. but at least give credit where credit is due.
There is a reason why CEO of MLG has been on our podcast show 6 times, as well David Ting and JediRobb from IPL, and Craig Levine from ESEA. Again, to say we have nothing to show and therefore we are irrelevant is both incorrect, and simply far off point.
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On February 10 2012 06:53 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 06:51 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 06:21 karpo wrote:On February 10 2012 06:14 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2. Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Chill, that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part. So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault. BULLSHIT!!! If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience. I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about: If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game. If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content. I'm sorry but wtf? You say that someone creating content and wants to charge people for it are the ones to blame? Wanting to get paid for your work is asking for charity? What do you do? You watch stuff for free and add nothing to the "esport" you watch beside maybe some commercial revenue. Where in the world do you get similar content for free, legally? The entitlement is just astounding, especially when you imply that esports dying would not be due to people being cheap. On February 10 2012 06:30 ZasZ. wrote:On February 10 2012 06:14 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2. Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Chill, that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part. So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault. BULLSHIT!!! If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience. I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about: If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game. If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content. You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite. It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish. That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear. What both of you fail to notice is the last paragraph of my post. Are they justified to charge for their content? Maybe, maybe not. Who gives a fuck? That I watch free content legally, but will stop watching if I had to pay for it, doesn't make me a parasite, an entitled spoiled brat, a non working kid who's sucking on someones tit, or whatever insults anyone might want to come up with towards their potential customers (and yes, viewing ads on a free stream = customer, so please don't even go down the "you don't pay so you're no customer path). I just didn't like the term "Charity" and the associated finger pointing at me for being responsible for ESPORTS' potential death. If a company (or a whole industry for that matter) goes bankrupt, then it is certainly not the fault of the customers who refused to buy their overpriced products. That some people claim, these customers should buy these products anyways out of moral obligation to the dying industry doesn't make the claim correct. Welcome to capitalism. I'll spare you guys a Soviet Russia joke. So you turned the argument around from "charity" to "donation" and it's all ok? Your argument is just as stupid as the one you dislike.
I never asked for a charity, or a donation to be sent my way.
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If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think.
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Calgary25963 Posts
On February 10 2012 07:00 dementrio wrote:
If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think.
That's exactly what I meant. You should think the content is worth some value so you are willing to pay at most that. You should not give them your money anyways to artificially support an industry that you don't think is worth it. An industry can't survive on people supporting it just to keep it alive. That will work for a few years, tops, but eventually people will get tired of supporting something that isn't giving them that value back.
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It's too bad that monetizing barcrafts isn't easy. They're growing exponentially, people spend money at them which reflects that people dont feel uncomfortable with parting with their money for that type of social + esports experience.
You could charge a licensing fee in return for official licenses/shoutouts/swag if they're planned well enough in advance or something. It wouldnt solve all of the funding problems, but it's potentially mutually beneficial-- organizers get to be 'Official MLG Partner' events or whatever, and they pay a fee which they can recouped in the event itself.
EDIT: It's definitely a potential admin nightmare, but I think it could be conceptualized in a way that would mitigate excess organizational costs.
EDIT2: Hell you could have a 'barcraft pass' option as a funding package with a set of benefits and perks etc for organizers.
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On February 10 2012 06:43 halfies wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 06:30 ZasZ. wrote:On February 10 2012 06:14 SACtheXchng wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2. Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Chill, that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part. So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault. BULLSHIT!!! If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience. I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about: If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game. If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content. You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite. It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish. That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear. your point might be valid if ad revenue didnt entirely support the biggest internet companies im pretty sure if there was a fee to use facebook, it wouldnt be anywhere near as successful as it is now. the same goes for google. its all very well to say that if you dont pay for streams your a 'parasite', but the truth is that the people who watch free streams are the people who enable so many tournaments to take place. unless your telling me that the number of people who pay subscriptions to IPL is enough to support the tournaments and show matches entirely, and that the sponsorship would still be worth the same amount with the lower view count. if you can get something better for free, why should you pay? if gsl had a better quality stream with more ads, id watch it, instead of just torrenting VODs when i hear about a good match, and watching them lag free whenever i want to. its great that you pay for GSL if thats what you want to do, but is sure as shit doesn't make you more supportive of SC2
If Facebook had charged a fee when the service first started up, I agree with you that it would have collapsed rather quickly. Exactly how mid-tier tournaments like IEM (as an example) would if they started trying to charge premium prices for an unproven product. GSL has established itself as the place with the best games, the best production, and (arguably) the best casting talent. There's a reason a lot of people pay for GSL passes, when it's more than every other tournament.
However, if Facebook were to charge a (non-outrageous) fee now, I bet you they would make a fortune. So many people are hooked on the damn thing that it would lose some of the casual users (like myself) but the Facebookers would keep doing their thing.
Nowhere am I saying that individual players should be charging for their streams. If that's the vibe you're getting, that's just silly. They make pretty decent money from ad revenue alone assuming they are any good and interact with their audience. The player is putting little to no extra effort into providing a "product" to you, they are just letting you watch them practice like they would anyways. Charging for this would be asinine.
But when tournaments spend a lot of money on production quality and prize pools, they should expect the people benefitting from that content to help contribute, especially when ad revenue isn't enough to cover it. Some people don't mind paying $5 for an HD stream (I never do), and the rest watch live for free in lower quality. But I'm not advocating paying premium prices for non-premium content, which I consider to be everything but the GSL right now.
The fact that you torrent GSL VODs does make you a parasite. Sorry to break it to you. And by definition, actually paying for them does make me more supportive of SC2 than you are, whether you like it or not, because I'm right there with you watching the free streams and getting the mid-tier tournaments ad revenue. Not sure how you think you can justify that.
If you don't think it's worth the money, don't pay for it. That's your prerogative. But don't steal the content and then claim you're supporting SC2 as much as everybody else.
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On February 10 2012 06:57 LordJerith wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 06:41 chadissilent wrote:A few 1st/2nds in local LANs and a 4th place in 1 large tournament taking place the same weekend as MLG. I have more 1st/2nd in local LANs than all of vVv combined, apparently.. Come on now. . . lol. . . We are the most accomplished console organization in the world with top 4 finishes on 4 continents. . . You can not like us, but be fair about it. WCG, MLG, XL, these are not "local lans" lol. (Unless you are ferring only to SC2). The point is we DO have something to show for our efforts. Again, you can hate all you want, but be fair. Our SC division was never built to be like EGs. So, yes, in SC2 we are nowhere near any of the traditional eSports orgs. but at least give credit where credit is due. There is a reason why CEO of MLG has been on our podcast show 6 times, as well David Ting and JediRobb from IPL, and Craig Levine from ESEA. Again, to say we have nothing to show and therefore we are irrelevant is both incorrect, and simply far off point.
I'm not hating, I am actually good friends with a few vVv members. But when people say you have a lack of results in SC2, they are correct. I was referring to only SC2 by the way.
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Competitive Starcraft conossieurs are a generally smarter demographic than those who pay to view WWE, at least technologically. A lot of us would be happy with simply viewing the vods, this is why I don't really think the PPV business model would work for Starcraft, or even e-sports as a whole.
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On February 10 2012 07:06 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 06:57 LordJerith wrote:On February 10 2012 06:41 chadissilent wrote:A few 1st/2nds in local LANs and a 4th place in 1 large tournament taking place the same weekend as MLG. I have more 1st/2nd in local LANs than all of vVv combined, apparently.. Come on now. . . lol. . . We are the most accomplished console organization in the world with top 4 finishes on 4 continents. . . You can not like us, but be fair about it. WCG, MLG, XL, these are not "local lans" lol. (Unless you are ferring only to SC2). The point is we DO have something to show for our efforts. Again, you can hate all you want, but be fair. Our SC division was never built to be like EGs. So, yes, in SC2 we are nowhere near any of the traditional eSports orgs. but at least give credit where credit is due. There is a reason why CEO of MLG has been on our podcast show 6 times, as well David Ting and JediRobb from IPL, and Craig Levine from ESEA. Again, to say we have nothing to show and therefore we are irrelevant is both incorrect, and simply far off point. I'm not hating, I am actually good friends with a few vVv members. But when people say you have a lack of results in SC2, they are correct. I was referring to only SC2 by the way.
OK, a lack of results in SC2 is far away from "nothing to show for it."
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On February 10 2012 07:00 dementrio wrote:
If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think.
Instead, I don't think that way. If my money supports a company it does so because I (the owner of my money) decide to give it to said company. I do that because the quality of the product convinced me to do so.
If I give my money to a company for the SOLE reason to support them, without being convinced by the quality of their stuff, then that's charity in my book.
I never asked for free streams.
ESPORTS apparrently is asking me to pay for their content to save its ass and not because the content is worth it.
That's asking for Donations.
EDIT:
On February 10 2012 07:03 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 07:00 dementrio wrote:
If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think. That's exactly what I meant. You should think the content is worth some value so you are willing to pay at most that. You should not give them your money anyways to artificially support an industry that you don't think is worth it. An industry can't survive on people supporting it just to keep it alive. That will work for a few years, tops, but eventually people will get tired of supporting something that isn't giving them that value back.
OK, I'm confused now. You're basically saying what I'm saying. Did I misunderstand something?
Not a native speaker.
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I would probably pay if the foreigner players were as good as the koreans and only there was like one or two world leagues at most to watch.. as it is right now there are way too many tournaments and none of them get the absolutely top players.. GSL comes the closest to it, but it's at a shitty time and though I enjoy watching koreans play, I really don't care too much about the players themselves.
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On February 10 2012 06:56 KingOfAmerica wrote:
A Venn Diagram of this thread would be amazing. The circles of "People who care enough about Starcraft 2 to read / post on Team Liquid" to "People who wouldn't pay to see Starcraft 2 content, even if that means it will inevitably go away" should really not intersect in the way that they are here.
Also telling, that anyone posting here who has any manner of credentials towards knowledge of the eSports industry, are all saying the same thing.
We are all entitled to precisely 0 content. Anything we get, we should be grateful for. If we want to continue to get it, and if you believe (like me) that eSports and SC2 has the potential to be a superior form of entertainment, vote with your dollars.
yeah, good point.
o wait, my bad, its not at all. the amount of people who stream for free is huge already, and the only reason that the majority have so few viewers is because better players also stream for free. its not just bad players, there are pretty good people who play SC2 well enough to be enjoyable to watch, even if they aren't good enough to win major tournaments. if you charged only for tournaments, then people who streamed during tournament hours would just see less of a drop in viewers. if high level players charged for streams, people who were worse would probably just see a jump in viewer numbers. i guess it would be possible for twitch to make you pay x amount to watch their SC2 streams, but since there are a million ways to watch stuff online, all that would do is mean people stopped using twitch.
also, since 99% of TL has nothing to do with stream pricing, your snide little venn diagram remark is stupid
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EPT
