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On February 10 2012 05:09 Boblhead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 05:06 Klipsys wrote:
How many people would have paid for SC2 if you could play on Battle.Net with a pirated copy? That's the problem, the culture of gaming isn't used to spending money for things that they can get for free. If I go to demonid right now, and cross check the IP's of the people who have torrented the GSL, and the people who post on TL calming to support e-sports, what's that going to look like? if you can't even play on bnet 1.0 with a pirated copy and can only play on priv servers your argument is invalid. If there was an alternative server your argument would be valid.
It's not an argument, just a musing. I'm willing to wager that if you could play unchecked on Battle.net with a pirated copy, A LOT less people would have purchased SC2.
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Such a large disconnect between what community feels it's entitled to and what it actually is. It's basically free entertainment for you all at the expense of organizers and companies that support events/teams. No sponsor makes back their investment. If they are big enough to drop money on sponsorships and such, chances are us gaming people already know of them and use their products.
Monetizing events needs to happen eventually, but at the same time; content quanity would need to grow too. Which isn't hard, these events have infrastructure already in place to create content, just need to do more of it. I watch the free MLG stream once every couple weekends to check out the latest event, I'd pay for it if I had to too. But I would jump up and volunteer that money if it included state of the game, fuck slasher, etc. because that is a consistent entertainment stream for me, just like TV etc
Hopefully some events get together and take the plunge to PPV type format, it's really the only way to be sustainable. Player pass fees can only last you so long 
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Really great discussion going on here, but I cannot read most of it as I am laughing so hard that I am crying at Blackfogers comment and the tears are blurring my vision! 
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Sweden2303 Posts
I don't think leagues and tournaments and such should force people to pay if they want a quality product because that will just alienate a lot of people and not be worth it. I do think they could charge people for providing a really high quality product though.
I think I would be willing to spend some money on ESPORTS but I haven't done it that much yet simply because the leagues have not offered a product that is something that is so much better than what I get for free. GSL tickets are the only thing I can really think of now.
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On February 10 2012 05:22 SirScoots wrote:Really great discussion going on here, but I cannot read most of it as I am laughing so hard that I am crying at Blackfogers comment and the tears are blurring my vision!
That was the funniest thing on TL in a long, long time
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I personally think that if competitions want to start charging for their services, then they are going to have to make them worth paying for. There's so many free tournaments to watch all the time.
And people are content with watching a lower quality stream if it is free.
GSL charges to watch VODs, and because it's on at a time where most people aren't able to watch it, people are willing to pay for a month's worth of a tournament because it's pretty much the best run tournament there is so far imo.
I feel like if MLG or similar foreign events were a PPV thing, and you could not watch it at all unless you paid for it, then I believe that the numbers would drop significantly.
I feel like it works a lot better in Korea for BW because they have much bigger sponsors behind the events and teams.
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PPV has its limits. For now, we want to expand the audience. We can't focus solely on monetization. Most of the companies now realize this, and are consequently making huge investments. It would be hard to expand with a PPV model, but the fact that right now you can give your friend a stream link to the starcraft biggest tournaments and he/she can watch them free helps create a huge audience. Once this audience is achieved, then we'll feel the effects of monetization. Hopefully this won't be in the form of stream fees but rather selling clothing/branded stuff, (for example, how NBA sells jerseys).
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On February 10 2012 05:17 SupLilSon wrote:
Also, does anyone know how Broodwar viewing is done in Korea? Would it be possible to emulate whatever system they use? It is successful, no?
Step 1 would be to have a game at least as good as Brood War.
User was warned for this post
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On February 10 2012 04:14 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 04:09 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 04:04 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:56 Canucklehead wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2. Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports! Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear. What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it. My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
The point is... you don't care about watching Starcraft? Some of us are spectators. I watch NFL/College football and Starcraft. Those are the two competitive things I enjoy watching. You might as well go to a thread about the popularity of baseball and just scream "I DONT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL!! BASEBALL IS JUST SOMETHING I PLAY SOMETIMES! I DONT WANT TO WATCH IT AND NEITHER DO MOST PEOPLE!". Because.. that is basically what you are saying. It isn't adding anything valuable to the conversation.
I don't think anybody can deny that theres almost always at least 30+k viewers watching some form of Starcraft. That's pretty much 'at any random time during the day'. Probably more if you counted the people watching VoDs(that we can't get a number for). Do you people realize that many channels can't hit 300k viewers most nights? The very top shows for specific time slots rarely get over 700k-800k viewers. Many networks survive on mostly ~100k/viewers shows, with a few of their 'top' shows getting 200-300k. It isn't that far off from where SC2 peak viewer times sit and it is only growing. I just don't see a point to come in to this thread and go HAHA PPL DONT WATCH STARCRAFT!!
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On February 10 2012 05:27 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 05:17 SupLilSon wrote:
Also, does anyone know how Broodwar viewing is done in Korea? Would it be possible to emulate whatever system they use? It is successful, no? Step 1 would be to have a game at least as good as Brood War.
Your opinion of BW>SC2 is not needed. If you'd like to discuss monetization of SC2 feel free to post again.
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I really hate to generalize but I think 99% of all this has to do with people's attitudes. It's the Internet/reddit/I refuse to buy movies and music legally etc entitlement. I'm 22 years old and I buy all my music on iTunes and movies at BestBuy (I know I'm an exception). Why can't we do the same for Starcraft. The same people that donated 3500 dollars in 1 hr to get MKP to MLG, can't spend 20 bucks a month to have the ability to watch him compete live in GSL or MLG?
These players who go pro give up some of the most important years of their lives in terms of making a career that can sustain you for the rest of your life, they do this for a game they will be probably obsolete at in 2 years. And guess what, they make such shitty money doing it. Sure they love the game and it's their choice, but that doesn't mean we can't have some appreciation for what they sacrifice. And that appreciation should translate into a way to make esports sustainable.
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On February 10 2012 05:31 skipdog172 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 04:14 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 04:09 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 04:04 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:56 Canucklehead wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote:
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2. Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports! Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear. What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it. My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be. The point is... you don't care about watching Starcraft? Some of us are spectators. I watch NFL/College football and Starcraft. Those are the two competitive things I enjoy watching. You might as well go to a thread about the popularity of baseball and just scream "I DONT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL!! BASEBALL IS JUST SOMETHING I PLAY SOMETIMES! I DONT WANT TO WATCH IT AND NEITHER DO MOST PEOPLE!". Because.. that is basically what you are saying. It isn't adding anything valuable to the conversation.
That's not at all what I was saying but ok.
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There is no reason not to donate if someone is streaming something really enjoyable, of good quality or otherwise worth it and I'm positive there are a lot of people who would donate.
Viewers themselves are a reward for a streamer. I don't see a real need for monetization, certainly not in a form of forcing people to pay for streams.
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On February 10 2012 05:19 xSixGeneralHan wrote:Such a large disconnect between what community feels it's entitled to and what it actually is. It's basically free entertainment for you all at the expense of organizers and companies that support events/teams. No sponsor makes back their investment. If they are big enough to drop money on sponsorships and such, chances are us gaming people already know of them and use their products. Monetizing events needs to happen eventually, but at the same time; content quanity would need to grow too. Which isn't hard, these events have infrastructure already in place to create content, just need to do more of it. I watch the free MLG stream once every couple weekends to check out the latest event, I'd pay for it if I had to too. But I would jump up and volunteer that money if it included state of the game, fuck slasher, etc. because that is a consistent entertainment stream for me, just like TV etc Hopefully some events get together and take the plunge to PPV type format, it's really the only way to be sustainable. Player pass fees can only last you so long
Hundreds of thousands of viewers doesnt make money for sponsers? I doubt that lol. If the sponsers were actually LOSING money, then they would pull out.
Look how many sponsers EG has. Do you think for 1 second that, if they were not getting some sort of profit/value out of EG, they would still continue to support them? No lol. They dont support "esports" for the sake of charity. No sponser would be willing to take a direct hit to their wallet just to be a "nice guy".
If I never knew about sc2, do you think I would have bought all of the sc2-related clothing that I currently have? No. Would
I hate energy drinks because of the carbonated and soda-like nature of them, but then I heard of Monster Rehab from Geoff and now I love that drink. WOuld I have bought that drink if I didnt hear it from him? Most likely not.
Players, teams, and events influence fans to buy things that they otherwise wouldnt have if they never knew about these games. And if I havent heard of MLG before, would I take a risk and purchase a ticket to watch it? Hell no I wouldnt. All of the FREE content is allowing me to get deeper into this community, influencing the things I spend money on AND what I spend my free time watching/doing. "Free" isnt always a bad thing.
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I happily pay to have OGN on my TV 
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Go ahead and try it the scene will become bootlegs galore or shrink to a pulp.
if everyone charges, then watch when a few start some free streams, they will get all the viewers and become more profitable then the people charging.
or people will just watch gm players ladder- and there is always a free gm laddering.
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On February 10 2012 05:37 zimz wrote:
Go ahead and try it the scene will become bootlegs galore or shrink to a pulp.
that's like saying
either die of starvation or die right now
not a sustainable model at all
if there's no return on investment for the companies to make a profit there's actually literally no point in a company to waste resources on that "industry" then.
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On February 10 2012 05:32 Recoil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 05:27 Hinanawi wrote:On February 10 2012 05:17 SupLilSon wrote:
Also, does anyone know how Broodwar viewing is done in Korea? Would it be possible to emulate whatever system they use? It is successful, no? Step 1 would be to have a game at least as good as Brood War. Your opinion of BW>SC2 is not needed. If you'd like to discuss monetization of SC2 feel free to post again.
Sure, I can do that. To be fair though, to monetize something it IS helpful to have a good product.
However, there is still hope for SC2, because many not-so-good products have been successfully monetized. SC2 is beginning to experience the inevitable complete domination of Korean players over foreigners, and this is bad news because the foreign scene (aka potential money sources) thrives on foreign player drama and personalities. No whitey = no green, and god knows Korea isn't going to support the SC2 scene itself.
I recommend making a shift to professional-wrestling style full-time official player drama coverage. Maybe you could put Idra, Stephano, Naniwa, Ret, HuK, and InControl in a house together and film their wacky adventures, where they describe their daily proceedings using SC2 terms like Big Bang Theory humor. At the end of each episode a player gets knocked out of the GSL again, but it's a heartwarming learning experience about passion and friendship and everyone's got eachother's backs so it leaves you with a fuzzy good feeling.
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On February 10 2012 05:34 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 05:31 skipdog172 wrote:On February 10 2012 04:14 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 04:09 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 04:04 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:56 Canucklehead wrote:On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
[quote]
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports! Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear. What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it. My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be. The point is... you don't care about watching Starcraft? Some of us are spectators. I watch NFL/College football and Starcraft. Those are the two competitive things I enjoy watching. You might as well go to a thread about the popularity of baseball and just scream "I DONT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL!! BASEBALL IS JUST SOMETHING I PLAY SOMETIMES! I DONT WANT TO WATCH IT AND NEITHER DO MOST PEOPLE!". Because.. that is basically what you are saying. It isn't adding anything valuable to the conversation. That's not at all what I was saying but ok.
People here are so defensive. I'm pretty sure there's a smaller percentage of people with the economic means and the drive to actually pay for SC2 compared to NFL football. The gaming crowd is just very fickle and the "sport" isn't stable in the slightest. Other sports have a very solid amateur base, i'm pretty sure SC2 is just losing ground every month in actual casual/amateur players. People watch the tournaments because it's fun and something to do but there's not really much in organized low level play.
Also video games as a medium isn't really ideal for supporting a stable sound economical ground for competitive gaming. There's new games all the time, stuff doesn't age that well and everything depends on the devs actually balancing the game. Compared to most sports a "esports" game is very fickle and doesn't really have a long term.
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EPT
