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I don't see this stuff as any different than a coach in sports lobbying the refs to try to get more calls going their way. Heck it probably isn't much different than complaining to your boss about something you don't like about your job.
If your living is based off the balance of the game, then you have every right to voice your opinion. It doesn't mean Blizzard will listen, or even care. I hate this idea that pros should never talk balance. If I was a pro player and I played Zerg for example, even if the last 20 GLS champions were Zerg I'd still complain. You always want to lobby for your race to be improved in some way, even if results say otherwise.
It isn't the job of the pro players to balance the game, and they shouldn't go, "well zerg seems to be doing well I'll keep my mouth shut." Maybe if the pros were the ones that were in charge of balancing the game it would be different. But they aren't, so let's assume Blizzard takes a lot of what pros say in stride and they'll make changes as they see neccessary but I'm always surprised at the backlash a pro gets for voicing an opinion. I think they should, and I'd do the same and let Blizzard sort it out.
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On February 03 2012 03:48 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:39 Micket wrote:On February 03 2012 03:24 iNcontroL wrote:
nestea has always complained about zerg... while he was winning everything.
DRG adding his complaints to the mix is new.
IdrA complaining has always been around.. since BW when he played terran, the most winning race with the best players.
Meanwhile statistics show that Zerg wins more. History shows zerg wins more. Apparently I am dumb though cause I rely on results and history.. you know, things that happen outside of the imagination of complainers. Incontrol has always complained about Zerg too you know? As for statistics, results, history, they are all in the past. They do not reflect the current patch or metagame. All the Code S zergs are complaining about Protoss at the moment, whist they weren't 2 months ago. It is only this GSL where I myself have noticed a huge increase in skill in all Protoss players. Parting, oZ, Puzzle have all played sick good. MC is still in it. Meanwhile I watch the recent foreign online tournaments and the foreign Protosses play like garbage compared to the Koreans. So what you're saying is that there is no quantifiable basis for assessing balance. That's a pretty bold statement.
Protoss will always be balanced because it doesn't win GSLs apparently.
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On February 03 2012 03:48 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:39 Micket wrote:On February 03 2012 03:24 iNcontroL wrote:
nestea has always complained about zerg... while he was winning everything.
DRG adding his complaints to the mix is new.
IdrA complaining has always been around.. since BW when he played terran, the most winning race with the best players.
Meanwhile statistics show that Zerg wins more. History shows zerg wins more. Apparently I am dumb though cause I rely on results and history.. you know, things that happen outside of the imagination of complainers. Incontrol has always complained about Zerg too you know? As for statistics, results, history, they are all in the past. They do not reflect the current patch or metagame. All the Code S zergs are complaining about Protoss at the moment, whist they weren't 2 months ago. It is only this GSL where I myself have noticed a huge increase in skill in all Protoss players. Parting, oZ, Puzzle have all played sick good. MC is still in it. Meanwhile I watch the recent foreign online tournaments and the foreign Protosses play like garbage compared to the Koreans. So what you're saying is that there is no quantifiable basis for assessing balance. That's a pretty bold statement.
Yes, you have to watch the games and see what the current 'standard' metagame looks like. If the standard metagame in ZvP is Zerg going muta every game and living or dying depending if the build is scouted or not, then you can start to draw conclusions. Simply seeing ZvP 60:40 tells you nothing, if 80% of those games were played by mediocre NA and EU players. As fun as Haypro vs Minigun is good to watch, it will tell me nothing on game balance. Likewise, seeing stephano rape grubby doesn't mean ZvP is easy either.
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On February 03 2012 03:24 iNcontroL wrote:
nestea has always complained about zerg... while he was winning everything.
DRG adding his complaints to the mix is new.
IdrA complaining has always been around.. since BW when he played terran, the most winning race with the best players.
Meanwhile statistics show that Zerg wins more. History shows zerg wins more. Apparently I am dumb though cause I rely on results and history.. you know, things that happen outside of the imagination of complainers.
So then, would it be safe to assume that you're not relying on your strong tournament performances?
BOOOM!
jk jk. <3 Incontrol, just razzin ya. You're the man. Please don't hurt me. I bruise so easily.
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LOL AT MC
'Even if Toss is good, you should at least beat Genius'
...classic.
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Every race is overpowered and underpowered at different aspects of the game.
The problem in my opinion is the design of SC2 and the hard countering system. Until the game is less volatile people are going to continue to complain about balance.
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Whats up with MC being a little snippy on DRG?
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On February 03 2012 04:09 Masq wrote:
Every race is overpowered and underpowered at different aspects of the game.
The problem in my opinion is the design of SC2 and the hard countering system. Until the game is less volatile people are going to continue to complain about balance.
apparently you have never seen kas and mvp play before
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Ahahaha, thanks for the translation, damn funny.
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2 of the 3 times toss went to a GSL final, it was MC... lol
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Meanwhile statistics show that Zerg wins more.
This is only true outside of Korea, if you look at ZVP in Korea, Protoss has been favored for the last two months.
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On February 03 2012 08:42 Funguuuuu wrote:This is only true outside of Korea, if you look at ZVP in Korea, Protoss has been favored for the last two months.
Edit- oops misread chart
Anyway for January zerg are ahead in winrates in Korea 55.5 to 44.5 :
http://imgur.com/a/hQHYS
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protoss is to strong they need to be nerfed.
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Meanwhile terrans keep winning all the GSLs.
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Well one thing is for sure...
+ Show Spoiler +
 YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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Ah, the trend of SC2:
Zerg and Toss bitch at each other for months at a time.
Terran wins all the GSLs.
It's funny.
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Thank you so much for translating this!
I've been wondering for a while what the hell they were saying
lol
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On February 03 2012 09:05 ampson wrote:
Ah, the trend of SC2:
Zerg and Toss bitch at each other for months at a time.
Terran wins all the GSLs.
It's funny.
Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball.
Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm.
Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying).
I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good...
It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game.
What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up.
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On February 03 2012 09:14 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 09:05 ampson wrote:
Ah, the trend of SC2:
Zerg and Toss bitch at each other for months at a time.
Terran wins all the GSLs.
It's funny. Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball. Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm. Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying). I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good... It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game. What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up.
Yesterday we watched what should have been both Protoss's advancing off of a lot of immortal busts basically. This is also a reason that statistics are a tricky thing to use for balacing starcraft. If you look at yesterdays games for example you have MMA who was going to lose to Oz 2-0 before he move commanded a bunch of his army in and lost it and the game along with it. That game goes down in statistics as a terran win but everyone who watched it knows its cause Oz lost a won game.
Then you have the fact that the only league where you have the best of the best playing is Code S in GSL and that doenst have enough games all its own to form effective statistical trends. Even if it did with the ability to pick your map, as we saw last night you get a lot of TvP on Crossfire and we will probably see a lot of ZvP on crossfire soon as well. So basically the only way to judge the state of the game is off of what you see and what you see is a subjective way to judge.
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On February 03 2012 09:14 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 09:05 ampson wrote:
Ah, the trend of SC2:
Zerg and Toss bitch at each other for months at a time.
Terran wins all the GSLs.
It's funny. Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball. Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm. Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying). I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good... It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game. What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up.
Heard tales about your misplaced arrogance, but for you to just come out and say "Korean Terrans are better" is a little surprising. But then it devolved into "game's not imba but...Protoss OP" garbage. Improve yourself.
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EPT
