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On February 03 2012 20:48 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 11:47 Brett wrote:On February 03 2012 09:14 avilo wrote:On February 03 2012 09:05 ampson wrote:
Ah, the trend of SC2:
Zerg and Toss bitch at each other for months at a time.
Terran wins all the GSLs.
It's funny. Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball. Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm. Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying). I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good... It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game. What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up. You've just got it all figured out now, haven't you?? Hilarious that you're still going on about that upgrade issue. Reading his reply, I can now discredit many of the balance comments he makes, it's obvious he was totally out of touch with what happened with the "upgrade buffs" which gave an extra zealot here, an extra stalker there, and did nothing to quicken the time we complete upgrades. As mentioned proven before, the upgrade changes in that patch did NOTHING to improve toss upgrades in speed, it changed 0, because by the time forges finished, we made sure we had the mins/gas to get them regardless of the cost, so it did nothing to speed them up. Sorry Avilo's "15-17 minute 2-base" argument is phony and totally off base, also in imaginary fairy tale land. The money saved from that buff was hardly anything meaningful. Not saying the guy's a bad player but unable to stand objectively and look at what really went on there. Many of the complaints I see in here are, sure the stats say this, but this is what really happened. The stats are so skewed in Zerg favor this month, but it's suddenly fine, the stats don't mean much it's not what really happened. However, last month we all heard it's closer now, and it's getting better for the Toss from Zerg. So much bias from all races at any given point in time, but this month Zergs are really despicable. How can you be on top and defend for two months in a row games going in your favor, especially when the latter month is even more retardedly skewed in your favor. fixed: DRG: [Zergs are] shameless
I don't see how Zergs are shameless.
He makes a perfect valid point, when it's about forcefields the protoss is in full control and only he decides how it will go.
No amount of skill can break a forcefield.
The best you can hope for is running away your army and pray the toss doesn't split it.
Might i ask where you got the stats are in favor for zerg btw?
It's obviously they are talking only about the top lvl (aka GSL code S) and this season (and previous season) there are less zergs then protoss.
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On February 03 2012 20:57 Assirra wrote:
I don't see how Zergs are shameless.
He makes a perfect valid point, when it's about forcefields the protoss is in full control and only he decides how it will go.
No amount of skill can break a forcefield.
The best you can hope for is running away your army and pray the toss doesn't split it.
Might i ask where you got the stats are in favor for zerg btw?
It's obviously they are talking only about the top lvl (aka GSL code S) and this season (and previous season) there are less zergs then protoss.
What I'm saying is that on any given month, a race is crying out some BS, one a specific point on a small data set, such as last nights games. But on another month, it's another point with this small data set. There being less zergs this ONE season has nothing to do with it, see you are drawing conclusions off such a specific small data set (so they got unlucky this month?) Sorry, you posted before my edit with TLPD Jan of the stats went through.
Basically, every damn race just goes back and forth about imbalance with heavy bias, and few on here standing objectively. And those twitter posts should be taken with a grain of salt, koreans dick around a lot in regards to balance.
For this specific month however, I'm just saying most zergs are crying fowl from unsubstantiated-whiny-biased points of view, and the data from TLPD don't even back up their cries of imbalance, it's the opposite they're favored. Next month we'll see who whines but right now, zergs cut the bull shit.
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force fields make the game less fun.
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They're joking around... stop taking this seriously.
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force fields take skill... and lack of lag :S... a month or two ago... Zergs and Terrans were crushing Protoss play... this is after that Warp prism revolution period...
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On February 03 2012 21:35 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 20:57 Assirra wrote:
I don't see how Zergs are shameless.
He makes a perfect valid point, when it's about forcefields the protoss is in full control and only he decides how it will go.
No amount of skill can break a forcefield.
The best you can hope for is running away your army and pray the toss doesn't split it.
Might i ask where you got the stats are in favor for zerg btw?
It's obviously they are talking only about the top lvl (aka GSL code S) and this season (and previous season) there are less zergs then protoss. What I'm saying is that on any given month, a race is crying out some BS, one a specific point on a small data set, such as last nights games. But on another month, it's another point with this small data set. There being less zergs this ONE season has nothing to do with it, see you are drawing conclusions off such a specific small data set (so they got unlucky this month?) Sorry, you posted before my edit with TLPD Jan of the stats went through. Basically, every damn race just goes back and forth about imbalance with heavy bias, and few on here standing objectively. And those twitter posts should be taken with a grain of salt, koreans dick around a lot in regards to balance. For this specific month however, I'm just saying most zergs are crying fowl from unsubstantiated-whiny-biased points of view, and the data from TLPD don't even back up their cries of imbalance, it's the opposite they're favored. Next month we'll see who whines but right now, zergs cut the bull shit.
I think zergs have gotten so used to whining about balance they don't even realise when they're favoured in the match-up. I think that's what's happened
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On February 04 2012 05:45 Reval wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 21:35 deadmau wrote:On February 03 2012 20:57 Assirra wrote:
I don't see how Zergs are shameless.
He makes a perfect valid point, when it's about forcefields the protoss is in full control and only he decides how it will go.
No amount of skill can break a forcefield.
The best you can hope for is running away your army and pray the toss doesn't split it.
Might i ask where you got the stats are in favor for zerg btw?
It's obviously they are talking only about the top lvl (aka GSL code S) and this season (and previous season) there are less zergs then protoss. What I'm saying is that on any given month, a race is crying out some BS, one a specific point on a small data set, such as last nights games. But on another month, it's another point with this small data set. There being less zergs this ONE season has nothing to do with it, see you are drawing conclusions off such a specific small data set (so they got unlucky this month?) Sorry, you posted before my edit with TLPD Jan of the stats went through. Basically, every damn race just goes back and forth about imbalance with heavy bias, and few on here standing objectively. And those twitter posts should be taken with a grain of salt, koreans dick around a lot in regards to balance. For this specific month however, I'm just saying most zergs are crying fowl from unsubstantiated-whiny-biased points of view, and the data from TLPD don't even back up their cries of imbalance, it's the opposite they're favored. Next month we'll see who whines but right now, zergs cut the bull shit. I think zergs have gotten so used to whining about balance they don't even realise when they're favoured in the match-up. I think that's what's happened
Just thought I would point out toss players are no different lol. The race that least balance whines is terran anyway so I wouldn't talk ^^.
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On February 03 2012 20:48 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 11:47 Brett wrote:On February 03 2012 09:14 avilo wrote:On February 03 2012 09:05 ampson wrote:
Ah, the trend of SC2:
Zerg and Toss bitch at each other for months at a time.
Terran wins all the GSLs.
It's funny. Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball. Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm. Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying). I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good... It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game. What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up. You've just got it all figured out now, haven't you?? Hilarious that you're still going on about that upgrade issue. Reading his reply, I can now discredit many of the balance comments he makes, it's obvious he was totally out of touch with what happened with the "upgrade buffs" which gave an extra zealot here, an extra stalker there, and did nothing to quicken the time we complete upgrades. As mentioned proven before, the upgrade changes in that patch did NOTHING to improve toss upgrades in speed, it changed 0, because by the time forges finished, we made sure we had the mins/gas to get them regardless of the cost, so it did nothing to speed them up. Sorry Avilo's "15-17 minute 2-base" argument is phony and totally off base, also in imaginary fairy tale land. The money saved from that buff was hardly anything meaningful. Not saying the guy's a bad player but unable to stand objectively and look at what really went on there. Many of the complaints I see in here are, sure the stats say this, but this is what really happened. The stats are so skewed in Zerg favor this month, but it's suddenly fine, the stats don't mean much it's not what really happened. However, last month we all heard it's closer now, and it's getting better for the Toss from Zerg. So much bias from all races at any given point in time, but this month Zergs are really despicable. How can you be on top and defend for two months in a row games going in your favor, especially when the latter month is even more retardedly skewed in your favor. fixed: DRG: [Zergs are] shameless
As a Zerg I use to do a build where I got really fast +1 melee after speed by keeping my drones in the gas. You know when I made the evo chamber? When I had 25 gas because I would have 100gas by the time it finished.
If the upgraded was cheaper, say 75gas, I would then start my evo chamber immediately after starting speed. So you see, by making the upgrade cheaper, I can start my evo chamber sooner so that my gas lines up with it.
It's complicate I know, but cheaper upgrades can mean quicker upgrades. /rollseyes
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On February 04 2012 05:54 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 20:48 deadmau wrote:On February 03 2012 11:47 Brett wrote:On February 03 2012 09:14 avilo wrote:On February 03 2012 09:05 ampson wrote:
Ah, the trend of SC2:
Zerg and Toss bitch at each other for months at a time.
Terran wins all the GSLs.
It's funny. Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball. Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm. Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying). I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good... It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game. What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up. You've just got it all figured out now, haven't you?? Hilarious that you're still going on about that upgrade issue. Reading his reply, I can now discredit many of the balance comments he makes, it's obvious he was totally out of touch with what happened with the "upgrade buffs" which gave an extra zealot here, an extra stalker there, and did nothing to quicken the time we complete upgrades. As mentioned proven before, the upgrade changes in that patch did NOTHING to improve toss upgrades in speed, it changed 0, because by the time forges finished, we made sure we had the mins/gas to get them regardless of the cost, so it did nothing to speed them up. Sorry Avilo's "15-17 minute 2-base" argument is phony and totally off base, also in imaginary fairy tale land. The money saved from that buff was hardly anything meaningful. Not saying the guy's a bad player but unable to stand objectively and look at what really went on there. Many of the complaints I see in here are, sure the stats say this, but this is what really happened. The stats are so skewed in Zerg favor this month, but it's suddenly fine, the stats don't mean much it's not what really happened. However, last month we all heard it's closer now, and it's getting better for the Toss from Zerg. So much bias from all races at any given point in time, but this month Zergs are really despicable. How can you be on top and defend for two months in a row games going in your favor, especially when the latter month is even more retardedly skewed in your favor. fixed: DRG: [Zergs are] shameless As a Zerg I use to do a build where I got really fast +1 melee after speed by keeping my drones in the gas. You know when I made the evo chamber? When I had 25 gas because I would have 100gas by the time it finished. If the upgraded was cheaper, say 75gas, I would then start my evo chamber immediately after starting speed. So you see, by making the upgrade cheaper, I can start my evo chamber sooner so that my gas lines up with it. It's complicate I know, but cheaper upgrades can mean quicker upgrades. /rollseyes
Except you're completely wrong. The cost of the first upgrade remained the same for everything but shields. Even if you're going double forge, no one gets shields first, even with the cheaper cost it's just not worth it compared to armor and attack.
So no, even if you build your forge 25 gas sooner, you don't get upgrades any faster. It's the +2/+2 that had the cost changed. When do you start +2/+2? When +1 finishes! Cost has had no effect on upgrade speed, because you could start +2/+2 as soon as +1/+1 was finished pre-patch.
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On February 04 2012 05:50 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 05:45 Reval wrote:On February 03 2012 21:35 deadmau wrote:On February 03 2012 20:57 Assirra wrote:
I don't see how Zergs are shameless.
He makes a perfect valid point, when it's about forcefields the protoss is in full control and only he decides how it will go.
No amount of skill can break a forcefield.
The best you can hope for is running away your army and pray the toss doesn't split it.
Might i ask where you got the stats are in favor for zerg btw?
It's obviously they are talking only about the top lvl (aka GSL code S) and this season (and previous season) there are less zergs then protoss. What I'm saying is that on any given month, a race is crying out some BS, one a specific point on a small data set, such as last nights games. But on another month, it's another point with this small data set. There being less zergs this ONE season has nothing to do with it, see you are drawing conclusions off such a specific small data set (so they got unlucky this month?) Sorry, you posted before my edit with TLPD Jan of the stats went through. Basically, every damn race just goes back and forth about imbalance with heavy bias, and few on here standing objectively. And those twitter posts should be taken with a grain of salt, koreans dick around a lot in regards to balance. For this specific month however, I'm just saying most zergs are crying fowl from unsubstantiated-whiny-biased points of view, and the data from TLPD don't even back up their cries of imbalance, it's the opposite they're favored. Next month we'll see who whines but right now, zergs cut the bull shit. I think zergs have gotten so used to whining about balance they don't even realise when they're favoured in the match-up. I think that's what's happened Just thought I would point out toss players are no different lol. The race that least balance whines is terran anyway so I wouldn't talk ^^.
I know that. It just seems that zerg have been whining since beta. First it was terran, now it's toss
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On February 04 2012 10:13 Reval wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 05:50 blade55555 wrote:On February 04 2012 05:45 Reval wrote:On February 03 2012 21:35 deadmau wrote:On February 03 2012 20:57 Assirra wrote:
I don't see how Zergs are shameless.
He makes a perfect valid point, when it's about forcefields the protoss is in full control and only he decides how it will go.
No amount of skill can break a forcefield.
The best you can hope for is running away your army and pray the toss doesn't split it.
Might i ask where you got the stats are in favor for zerg btw?
It's obviously they are talking only about the top lvl (aka GSL code S) and this season (and previous season) there are less zergs then protoss. What I'm saying is that on any given month, a race is crying out some BS, one a specific point on a small data set, such as last nights games. But on another month, it's another point with this small data set. There being less zergs this ONE season has nothing to do with it, see you are drawing conclusions off such a specific small data set (so they got unlucky this month?) Sorry, you posted before my edit with TLPD Jan of the stats went through. Basically, every damn race just goes back and forth about imbalance with heavy bias, and few on here standing objectively. And those twitter posts should be taken with a grain of salt, koreans dick around a lot in regards to balance. For this specific month however, I'm just saying most zergs are crying fowl from unsubstantiated-whiny-biased points of view, and the data from TLPD don't even back up their cries of imbalance, it's the opposite they're favored. Next month we'll see who whines but right now, zergs cut the bull shit. I think zergs have gotten so used to whining about balance they don't even realise when they're favoured in the match-up. I think that's what's happened Just thought I would point out toss players are no different lol. The race that least balance whines is terran anyway so I wouldn't talk ^^. I know that. It just seems that zerg have been whining since beta. First it was terran, now it's toss
But what Blade is saying is Protoss has been, as well.
First it was Zerg(Remember when every toss whined about Mutas in beta? They still do, but not as much.) now it's Terran.
It doesn't make either race wrong, though.
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We can't have a real conversation about balance until the mass retarded public don't see the game as it is now. They see it as a span on a few months. Terran right now, are struggling, and protoss and zerg are meta-gaming and figuring out things a lot quicker and more efficiently. You can take this as Terran crying, but as of right now I no longer feel that terran is the best race by any stretch of the imagination. There are a lot of terran in the GSL because blizzard takes forever to change things. Now that they have made several changes and zerg/protoss are learning how to play against terran, there will soon be a wide shortage of Terran soon. I honestly don't care what anyone says, MMA or MVP losing by anything short of a few inches shows how unbalanced the game can be. MMA is probably the best terran in the world, and unless he is playing MC, DRG, or Nestea, there really is no way he can lose to some no name. That is what balance is all about right? The best player wins.
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Funny tweets -> pointless balance argument thread?
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This is friendly balance-related banter
Not balance "whine" if you will.
Context...
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drg and nestea should learn from Stephano and im sure they will soon!
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On February 04 2012 10:53 TypeOne wrote:
drg and nestea should learn from Stephano and im sure they will soon!
Learn what from stephano? How to lose to MC?
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i hope nestea and drg saw the january win race statistics chart. Funny how they dont even talk about terran.
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On February 04 2012 10:58 dde wrote:
i hope nestea and drg saw the january win race statistics chart. Funny how they dont even talk about terran.
Why is it funny?
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On February 04 2012 10:36 Trealador wrote:
We can't have a real conversation about balance until the mass retarded public don't see the game as it is now. They see it as a span on a few months. Terran right now, are struggling, and protoss and zerg are meta-gaming and figuring out things a lot quicker and more efficiently. You can take this as Terran crying, but as of right now I no longer feel that terran is the best race by any stretch of the imagination. There are a lot of terran in the GSL because blizzard takes forever to change things. Now that they have made several changes and zerg/protoss are learning how to play against terran, there will soon be a wide shortage of Terran soon. I honestly don't care what anyone says, MMA or MVP losing by anything short of a few inches shows how unbalanced the game can be. MMA is probably the best terran in the world, and unless he is playing MC, DRG, or Nestea, there really is no way he can lose to some no name. That is what balance is all about right? The best player wins.
MMA is the best terran because he wins championships through his TvT and TvZ. Now that protoss are actually decently represented in the GSL (compared to before) it shows that his TvP is lacking. Remember his championships? He only played 1 TvP out of all of them.
This whine about protoss is so pathetic I pity them (DRG is still young, I guess he still has time to learn how to be successful or seek help). The win rates are still hovering around 50%, why not just focus on getting better?
Remember the sad zealot days of only 1 protoss barely making it out of groups, and none in Ro8? Instead of complaining publicly on twitter, protosses just appreciated the humor of the situation. Remember this was only a couple seasons ago, and now when toss is doing better and is actually represented, people start crusades to get them nerfed/discredit them. Some people just want a two-race game.
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In my opinion most zergs whine about protoss because forcefields pretend them from doing anything.
They win games because the toss screws up more so than they playing good.
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EPT
