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cool beans now some good besides IdrA says something
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On February 03 2012 01:48 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 01:43 Alderan wrote:
So when idrA says it, he's whining about balance.
When DRG and Nestea say it, suddenly it is fact.
/sigh funny how that works isnt it
they have credibility.
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On February 03 2012 21:39 TooL wrote:
force fields make the game less fun.
this is actually so true.
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Poor Genius, will he ever get a break?
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On February 04 2012 10:53 TypeOne wrote:
drg and nestea should learn from Stephano and im sure they will soon!
Yea cause Stephano got such a good track record in GS...wait a second.
On February 04 2012 11:39 Pwnographics wrote:
In my opinion most zergs whine about protoss because forcefields pretend them from doing anything.
They win games because the toss screws up more so than they playing good.
Is that whine or an actual issue?
"Cause i am good you don't even have a chance to defend yourself even if you were the best player in the world"
It's pretty obvious protoss live or die by their forcefields but is that how its supposed to be in the first place?
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On February 04 2012 11:46 bubblegumbo wrote:
Poor Genius, will he ever get a break?
Seriously LOL. This guy has been practicing very hard but never achieved anything ever since season 2. Now he finally shows results and people say its because his race is op.
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Sweden3286 Posts
On February 04 2012 11:46 bubblegumbo wrote:
Poor Genius, will he ever get a break?
He will. Seems he is really on track again so that'll sort itself out. Good on him.
People really read too much into other people's tweets. Let them banter and just play the game. THERE IS NO IMBALANCE
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On February 04 2012 06:04 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 05:54 fraktoasters wrote:On February 03 2012 20:48 deadmau wrote:On February 03 2012 11:47 Brett wrote:On February 03 2012 09:14 avilo wrote:On February 03 2012 09:05 ampson wrote:
Ah, the trend of SC2:
Zerg and Toss bitch at each other for months at a time.
Terran wins all the GSLs.
It's funny. Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball. Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm. Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying). I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good... It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game. What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up. You've just got it all figured out now, haven't you?? Hilarious that you're still going on about that upgrade issue. Reading his reply, I can now discredit many of the balance comments he makes, it's obvious he was totally out of touch with what happened with the "upgrade buffs" which gave an extra zealot here, an extra stalker there, and did nothing to quicken the time we complete upgrades. As mentioned proven before, the upgrade changes in that patch did NOTHING to improve toss upgrades in speed, it changed 0, because by the time forges finished, we made sure we had the mins/gas to get them regardless of the cost, so it did nothing to speed them up. Sorry Avilo's "15-17 minute 2-base" argument is phony and totally off base, also in imaginary fairy tale land. The money saved from that buff was hardly anything meaningful. Not saying the guy's a bad player but unable to stand objectively and look at what really went on there. Many of the complaints I see in here are, sure the stats say this, but this is what really happened. The stats are so skewed in Zerg favor this month, but it's suddenly fine, the stats don't mean much it's not what really happened. However, last month we all heard it's closer now, and it's getting better for the Toss from Zerg. So much bias from all races at any given point in time, but this month Zergs are really despicable. How can you be on top and defend for two months in a row games going in your favor, especially when the latter month is even more retardedly skewed in your favor. fixed: DRG: [Zergs are] shameless As a Zerg I use to do a build where I got really fast +1 melee after speed by keeping my drones in the gas. You know when I made the evo chamber? When I had 25 gas because I would have 100gas by the time it finished. If the upgraded was cheaper, say 75gas, I would then start my evo chamber immediately after starting speed. So you see, by making the upgrade cheaper, I can start my evo chamber sooner so that my gas lines up with it. It's complicate I know, but cheaper upgrades can mean quicker upgrades. /rollseyes Except you're completely wrong. The cost of the first upgrade remained the same for everything but shields. Even if you're going double forge, no one gets shields first, even with the cheaper cost it's just not worth it compared to armor and attack. So no, even if you build your forge 25 gas sooner, you don't get upgrades any faster. It's the +2/+2 that had the cost changed. When do you start +2/+2? When +1 finishes! Cost has had no effect on upgrade speed, because you could start +2/+2 as soon as +1/+1 was finished pre-patch.
What kind of logic is this? Cheaper upgrades means bigger army when you're moving out with those +2/+2 upgraded units.
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Lol people still don't understand that Protoss can only win using timing attacks. Basically relying on luck to catch the opponent off guard. That or a 40 min no rush game where Protoss hasn't lost any probes, even that will be 50/50 due to mass EMPs / broodlord evading vortex
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On February 04 2012 12:17 power-overwhelming wrote:
Lol people still don't understand that Protoss can only win using timing attacks. Basically relying on luck to catch the opponent off guard. That or a 40 min no rush game where Protoss hasn't lost any probes, even that will be 50/50 due to mass EMPs / broodlord evading vortex
Lol people still don't understand protoss can win macro games if they want to and they can beat broodlord/infestor and ghosts late game lol please don't post inaccurate stuff please.
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On February 04 2012 12:17 power-overwhelming wrote:
Lol people still don't understand that Protoss can only win using timing attacks. Basically relying on luck to catch the opponent off guard. That or a 40 min no rush game where Protoss hasn't lost any probes, even that will be 50/50 due to mass EMPs / broodlord evading vortex
Did you just say PvT is favored for T late game? Hahahahahahaha.
No.
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On February 04 2012 11:44 Chunhyang wrote:this is actually so true.
They're the reason why I hate playing a protoss as Zerg. I enjoy ZvT, but gosh ZvP feels so much like a dice roll on weather or not protoss gets a good forcefield. I hate it when I lose because of it and winning isn't satisfying.
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On February 03 2012 02:21 Otak wrote:
perhaps zerg QQ is a genetic thing? 90% of balance whine I see is from zerg - usually about protoss and quite a bit about terran too.
Then you have people like idra moaning about protoss when he still tries to go roach hydra vs P like he has been since beta.
I will admit though - it's a great form of entertainment even if it does get tiresome after a while.
Who are you to judge, oh wait you are no one.
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On February 04 2012 12:17 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 06:04 TrickyGilligan wrote:On February 04 2012 05:54 fraktoasters wrote:On February 03 2012 20:48 deadmau wrote:On February 03 2012 11:47 Brett wrote:On February 03 2012 09:14 avilo wrote:On February 03 2012 09:05 ampson wrote:
Ah, the trend of SC2:
Zerg and Toss bitch at each other for months at a time.
Terran wins all the GSLs.
It's funny. Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball. Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm. Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying). I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good... It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game. What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up. You've just got it all figured out now, haven't you?? Hilarious that you're still going on about that upgrade issue. Reading his reply, I can now discredit many of the balance comments he makes, it's obvious he was totally out of touch with what happened with the "upgrade buffs" which gave an extra zealot here, an extra stalker there, and did nothing to quicken the time we complete upgrades. As mentioned proven before, the upgrade changes in that patch did NOTHING to improve toss upgrades in speed, it changed 0, because by the time forges finished, we made sure we had the mins/gas to get them regardless of the cost, so it did nothing to speed them up. Sorry Avilo's "15-17 minute 2-base" argument is phony and totally off base, also in imaginary fairy tale land. The money saved from that buff was hardly anything meaningful. Not saying the guy's a bad player but unable to stand objectively and look at what really went on there. Many of the complaints I see in here are, sure the stats say this, but this is what really happened. The stats are so skewed in Zerg favor this month, but it's suddenly fine, the stats don't mean much it's not what really happened. However, last month we all heard it's closer now, and it's getting better for the Toss from Zerg. So much bias from all races at any given point in time, but this month Zergs are really despicable. How can you be on top and defend for two months in a row games going in your favor, especially when the latter month is even more retardedly skewed in your favor. fixed: DRG: [Zergs are] shameless As a Zerg I use to do a build where I got really fast +1 melee after speed by keeping my drones in the gas. You know when I made the evo chamber? When I had 25 gas because I would have 100gas by the time it finished. If the upgraded was cheaper, say 75gas, I would then start my evo chamber immediately after starting speed. So you see, by making the upgrade cheaper, I can start my evo chamber sooner so that my gas lines up with it. It's complicate I know, but cheaper upgrades can mean quicker upgrades. /rollseyes Except you're completely wrong. The cost of the first upgrade remained the same for everything but shields. Even if you're going double forge, no one gets shields first, even with the cheaper cost it's just not worth it compared to armor and attack. So no, even if you build your forge 25 gas sooner, you don't get upgrades any faster. It's the +2/+2 that had the cost changed. When do you start +2/+2? When +1 finishes! Cost has had no effect on upgrade speed, because you could start +2/+2 as soon as +1/+1 was finished pre-patch. What kind of logic is this? Cheaper upgrades means bigger army when you're moving out with those +2/+2 upgraded units.
Sensible, intelligent logic? He just showed the difference in upgrade timings, WHICH IS WHAT THE PERSON HE QUOTED WAS TALKING ABOUT, to be nil to negligible.
Then you come in spouting about army size differentials. How about you show us the difference in armies, and educate yourself, in spite of your own bias, in the process? Might prevent you from looking stupid in the future, too!
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On February 04 2012 13:26 Brett wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 12:17 sitromit wrote:On February 04 2012 06:04 TrickyGilligan wrote:On February 04 2012 05:54 fraktoasters wrote:On February 03 2012 20:48 deadmau wrote:On February 03 2012 11:47 Brett wrote:On February 03 2012 09:14 avilo wrote:On February 03 2012 09:05 ampson wrote:
Ah, the trend of SC2:
Zerg and Toss bitch at each other for months at a time.
Terran wins all the GSLs.
It's funny. Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball. Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm. Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying). I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good... It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game. What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up. You've just got it all figured out now, haven't you?? Hilarious that you're still going on about that upgrade issue. Reading his reply, I can now discredit many of the balance comments he makes, it's obvious he was totally out of touch with what happened with the "upgrade buffs" which gave an extra zealot here, an extra stalker there, and did nothing to quicken the time we complete upgrades. As mentioned proven before, the upgrade changes in that patch did NOTHING to improve toss upgrades in speed, it changed 0, because by the time forges finished, we made sure we had the mins/gas to get them regardless of the cost, so it did nothing to speed them up. Sorry Avilo's "15-17 minute 2-base" argument is phony and totally off base, also in imaginary fairy tale land. The money saved from that buff was hardly anything meaningful. Not saying the guy's a bad player but unable to stand objectively and look at what really went on there. Many of the complaints I see in here are, sure the stats say this, but this is what really happened. The stats are so skewed in Zerg favor this month, but it's suddenly fine, the stats don't mean much it's not what really happened. However, last month we all heard it's closer now, and it's getting better for the Toss from Zerg. So much bias from all races at any given point in time, but this month Zergs are really despicable. How can you be on top and defend for two months in a row games going in your favor, especially when the latter month is even more retardedly skewed in your favor. fixed: DRG: [Zergs are] shameless As a Zerg I use to do a build where I got really fast +1 melee after speed by keeping my drones in the gas. You know when I made the evo chamber? When I had 25 gas because I would have 100gas by the time it finished. If the upgraded was cheaper, say 75gas, I would then start my evo chamber immediately after starting speed. So you see, by making the upgrade cheaper, I can start my evo chamber sooner so that my gas lines up with it. It's complicate I know, but cheaper upgrades can mean quicker upgrades. /rollseyes Except you're completely wrong. The cost of the first upgrade remained the same for everything but shields. Even if you're going double forge, no one gets shields first, even with the cheaper cost it's just not worth it compared to armor and attack. So no, even if you build your forge 25 gas sooner, you don't get upgrades any faster. It's the +2/+2 that had the cost changed. When do you start +2/+2? When +1 finishes! Cost has had no effect on upgrade speed, because you could start +2/+2 as soon as +1/+1 was finished pre-patch. What kind of logic is this? Cheaper upgrades means bigger army when you're moving out with those +2/+2 upgraded units. Sensible, intelligent logic? He just showed the difference in upgrade timings, WHICH IS WHAT THE PERSON HE QUOTED WAS TALKING ABOUT, to be nil to negligible. Then you come in spouting about army size differentials. How about you show us the difference in armies, and educate yourself, in spite of your own bias, in the process? Might prevent you from looking stupid in the future, too!
The difference in Gas is enough for one more Stalker, when your 2/2 is done. That means your allin will come one Stalker stronger, which can make all the difference in this game.
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*checks date*
He won 1 out of the 3 toss matches in the last half year.
I think stats from passed a half a year are kinda pointless by now since the game changes rapidly.
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On February 04 2012 13:36 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 13:26 Brett wrote:On February 04 2012 12:17 sitromit wrote:On February 04 2012 06:04 TrickyGilligan wrote:On February 04 2012 05:54 fraktoasters wrote:On February 03 2012 20:48 deadmau wrote:On February 03 2012 11:47 Brett wrote:On February 03 2012 09:14 avilo wrote:On February 03 2012 09:05 ampson wrote:
Ah, the trend of SC2:
Zerg and Toss bitch at each other for months at a time.
Terran wins all the GSLs.
It's funny. Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball. Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm. Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying). I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good... It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game. What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up. You've just got it all figured out now, haven't you?? Hilarious that you're still going on about that upgrade issue. Reading his reply, I can now discredit many of the balance comments he makes, it's obvious he was totally out of touch with what happened with the "upgrade buffs" which gave an extra zealot here, an extra stalker there, and did nothing to quicken the time we complete upgrades. As mentioned proven before, the upgrade changes in that patch did NOTHING to improve toss upgrades in speed, it changed 0, because by the time forges finished, we made sure we had the mins/gas to get them regardless of the cost, so it did nothing to speed them up. Sorry Avilo's "15-17 minute 2-base" argument is phony and totally off base, also in imaginary fairy tale land. The money saved from that buff was hardly anything meaningful. Not saying the guy's a bad player but unable to stand objectively and look at what really went on there. Many of the complaints I see in here are, sure the stats say this, but this is what really happened. The stats are so skewed in Zerg favor this month, but it's suddenly fine, the stats don't mean much it's not what really happened. However, last month we all heard it's closer now, and it's getting better for the Toss from Zerg. So much bias from all races at any given point in time, but this month Zergs are really despicable. How can you be on top and defend for two months in a row games going in your favor, especially when the latter month is even more retardedly skewed in your favor. fixed: DRG: [Zergs are] shameless As a Zerg I use to do a build where I got really fast +1 melee after speed by keeping my drones in the gas. You know when I made the evo chamber? When I had 25 gas because I would have 100gas by the time it finished. If the upgraded was cheaper, say 75gas, I would then start my evo chamber immediately after starting speed. So you see, by making the upgrade cheaper, I can start my evo chamber sooner so that my gas lines up with it. It's complicate I know, but cheaper upgrades can mean quicker upgrades. /rollseyes Except you're completely wrong. The cost of the first upgrade remained the same for everything but shields. Even if you're going double forge, no one gets shields first, even with the cheaper cost it's just not worth it compared to armor and attack. So no, even if you build your forge 25 gas sooner, you don't get upgrades any faster. It's the +2/+2 that had the cost changed. When do you start +2/+2? When +1 finishes! Cost has had no effect on upgrade speed, because you could start +2/+2 as soon as +1/+1 was finished pre-patch. What kind of logic is this? Cheaper upgrades means bigger army when you're moving out with those +2/+2 upgraded units. Sensible, intelligent logic? He just showed the difference in upgrade timings, WHICH IS WHAT THE PERSON HE QUOTED WAS TALKING ABOUT, to be nil to negligible. Then you come in spouting about army size differentials. How about you show us the difference in armies, and educate yourself, in spite of your own bias, in the process? Might prevent you from looking stupid in the future, too! The difference in Gas is enough for one more Stalker, when your 2/2 is done. That means your allin will come one Stalker stronger, which can make all the difference in this game.
This is why we discourage balance discussion. Because of shit like this.
There is no current metagame in any pvx that relies on a 2/2 timing. No allin or macro based build at all. Nony used to, but he doesn't anymore. Besides, 2/2 finishes at a point late enough in the game where 1 stalker doesn't matter. All the upgrade did was mean at the point it finishes you have 1 stalker more. Its not a make or break kinda thing, and really has no influence at all on the game. The buff was to encourage getting upgrades, and encouraged upgrade based strats to emerge. Blizzard just made us see how good the buffs were with minimal changes to the game.
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On February 04 2012 12:17 power-overwhelming wrote:
Lol people still don't understand that Protoss can only win using timing attacks. Basically relying on luck to catch the opponent off guard. That or a 40 min no rush game where Protoss hasn't lost any probes, even that will be 50/50 due to mass EMPs / broodlord evading vortex
Protoss can only win using timing attacks? If you count turtling to 200/200 as a timing then you may be right!
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On February 04 2012 13:52 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 13:36 sitromit wrote:On February 04 2012 13:26 Brett wrote:On February 04 2012 12:17 sitromit wrote:On February 04 2012 06:04 TrickyGilligan wrote:On February 04 2012 05:54 fraktoasters wrote:On February 03 2012 20:48 deadmau wrote:On February 03 2012 11:47 Brett wrote:On February 03 2012 09:14 avilo wrote:On February 03 2012 09:05 ampson wrote:
Ah, the trend of SC2:
Zerg and Toss bitch at each other for months at a time.
Terran wins all the GSLs.
It's funny. Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball. Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm. Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying). I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good... It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game. What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up. You've just got it all figured out now, haven't you?? Hilarious that you're still going on about that upgrade issue. Reading his reply, I can now discredit many of the balance comments he makes, it's obvious he was totally out of touch with what happened with the "upgrade buffs" which gave an extra zealot here, an extra stalker there, and did nothing to quicken the time we complete upgrades. As mentioned proven before, the upgrade changes in that patch did NOTHING to improve toss upgrades in speed, it changed 0, because by the time forges finished, we made sure we had the mins/gas to get them regardless of the cost, so it did nothing to speed them up. Sorry Avilo's "15-17 minute 2-base" argument is phony and totally off base, also in imaginary fairy tale land. The money saved from that buff was hardly anything meaningful. Not saying the guy's a bad player but unable to stand objectively and look at what really went on there. Many of the complaints I see in here are, sure the stats say this, but this is what really happened. The stats are so skewed in Zerg favor this month, but it's suddenly fine, the stats don't mean much it's not what really happened. However, last month we all heard it's closer now, and it's getting better for the Toss from Zerg. So much bias from all races at any given point in time, but this month Zergs are really despicable. How can you be on top and defend for two months in a row games going in your favor, especially when the latter month is even more retardedly skewed in your favor. fixed: DRG: [Zergs are] shameless As a Zerg I use to do a build where I got really fast +1 melee after speed by keeping my drones in the gas. You know when I made the evo chamber? When I had 25 gas because I would have 100gas by the time it finished. If the upgraded was cheaper, say 75gas, I would then start my evo chamber immediately after starting speed. So you see, by making the upgrade cheaper, I can start my evo chamber sooner so that my gas lines up with it. It's complicate I know, but cheaper upgrades can mean quicker upgrades. /rollseyes Except you're completely wrong. The cost of the first upgrade remained the same for everything but shields. Even if you're going double forge, no one gets shields first, even with the cheaper cost it's just not worth it compared to armor and attack. So no, even if you build your forge 25 gas sooner, you don't get upgrades any faster. It's the +2/+2 that had the cost changed. When do you start +2/+2? When +1 finishes! Cost has had no effect on upgrade speed, because you could start +2/+2 as soon as +1/+1 was finished pre-patch. What kind of logic is this? Cheaper upgrades means bigger army when you're moving out with those +2/+2 upgraded units. Sensible, intelligent logic? He just showed the difference in upgrade timings, WHICH IS WHAT THE PERSON HE QUOTED WAS TALKING ABOUT, to be nil to negligible. Then you come in spouting about army size differentials. How about you show us the difference in armies, and educate yourself, in spite of your own bias, in the process? Might prevent you from looking stupid in the future, too! The difference in Gas is enough for one more Stalker, when your 2/2 is done. That means your allin will come one Stalker stronger, which can make all the difference in this game. This is why we discourage balance discussion. Because of shit like this. There is no current metagame in any pvx that relies on a 2/2 timing. No allin or macro based build at all. Nony used to, but he doesn't anymore. Besides, 2/2 finishes at a point late enough in the game where 1 stalker doesn't matter. All the upgrade did was mean at the point it finishes you have 1 stalker more. Its not a make or break kinda thing, and really has no influence at all on the game. The buff was to encourage getting upgrades, and encouraged upgrade based strats to emerge. Blizzard just made us see how good the buffs were with minimal changes to the game.
Every unit makes a difference in this game... So you're saying the buff only has psychological value and makes no difference? LOL!! Then maybe since Protoss players have now realized the value of upgrades, they should revert it and it wouldn't make a difference then either??? 
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EPT
