DRG MC and Nestea tweeting balance?

On February 02 2012 21:15 Telcontar wrote:
I won't translate verbatim, but here's a summary:

DRG says whether it's PvZ or PvT, the deadliness of immortals depend entirely on the 'skill' of forcefields. If the toss fails with FFs, P loses, if not, P wins. MC retorts by saying DRG should switch to toss and hone his 'forcefield skills'. Nestea tells DRG to not QQ and just lose cleanly. DRG tells the toss players to admit P is sickeningly strong right now. He then tells Nestea he's depressed and doesn't want to live (jokingly). Nestea tells him 'let toss win titles, so that david kim will nerf toss. Zerg needs to make a living as well. Let's go through together. In reality though, we'll both probably fail to go through.' MC tells DRG to take lessons from Nestea. He also reminds him that P has only reached 3 GSL finals thus far. He also tells DRG that even though toss is strong, he should've beaten the likes of Genius (joke). DRG responds to Nestea by saying he doesn't see a golden age coming for zerg before HOTS is out. If Nestea is right and both of them are knocked out, they should go out for a meal. Nestea says sure. He also says choosing zerg means you have to endure all the hardships that come with it. He says he's aged 10 years over the past one. DRG also calls MC shameless.

That's it.

On February 02 2012 21:15 Telcontar wrote:
DRG also calls MC shameless.

On February 02 2012 21:15 Telcontar wrote:
I won't translate verbatim, but here's a summary:

DRG says whether it's PvZ or PvT, the deadliness of immortals depend entirely on the 'skill' of forcefields. If the toss fails with FFs, P loses, if not, P wins. MC retorts by saying DRG should switch to toss and hone his 'forcefield skills'. Nestea tells DRG to not QQ and just lose cleanly. DRG tells the toss players to admit P is sickeningly strong right now. He then tells Nestea he's depressed and doesn't want to live (jokingly). Nestea tells him 'let toss win titles, so that david kim will nerf toss. Zerg needs to make a living as well. Let's go through together. In reality though, we'll both probably fail to go through.' MC tells DRG to take lessons from Nestea. He also reminds him that P has only reached 3 GSL finals thus far. He also tells DRG that even though toss is strong, he should've beaten the likes of Genius (joke). DRG responds to Nestea by saying he doesn't see a golden age coming for zerg before HOTS is out. If Nestea is right and both of them are knocked out, they should go out for a meal. Nestea says sure. He also says choosing zerg means you have to endure all the hardships that come with it. He says he's aged 10 years over the past one. DRG also calls MC shameless.

That's it.

On February 02 2012 21:15 Telcontar wrote:
DRG also calls MC shameless.

On February 02 2012 21:47 aebriol wrote:
Copy past to google translate ...

On February 02 2012 21:47 aebriol wrote:
Copy past to google translate ...

On February 02 2012 21:15 Telcontar wrote:
I won't translate verbatim, but here's a summary:

DRG says whether it's PvZ or PvT, the deadliness of immortals depend entirely on the 'skill' of forcefields. If the toss fails with FFs, P loses, if not, P wins. MC retorts by saying DRG should switch to toss and hone his 'forcefield skills'. Nestea tells DRG to not QQ and just lose cleanly. DRG tells the toss players to admit P is sickeningly strong right now. He then tells Nestea he's depressed and doesn't want to live (jokingly). Nestea tells him 'let toss win titles, so that david kim will nerf toss. Zerg needs to make a living as well. Let's go through together. In reality though, we'll both probably fail to go through.' MC tells DRG to take lessons from Nestea. He also reminds him that P has only reached 3 GSL finals thus far. He also tells DRG that even though toss is strong, he should've beaten the likes of Genius (joke). DRG responds to Nestea by saying he doesn't see a golden age coming for zerg before HOTS is out. If Nestea is right and both of them are knocked out, they should go out for a meal. Nestea says sure. He also says choosing zerg means you have to endure all the hardships that come with it. He says he's aged 10 years over the past one. DRG also calls MC shameless.

That's it.

On February 02 2012 21:15 Telcontar wrote:
I won't translate verbatim, but here's a summary:

DRG says whether it's PvZ or PvT, the deadliness of immortals depend entirely on the 'skill' of forcefields. If the toss fails with FFs, P loses, if not, P wins. MC retorts by saying DRG should switch to toss and hone his 'forcefield skills'. Nestea tells DRG to not QQ and just lose cleanly. DRG tells the toss players to admit P is sickeningly strong right now. He then tells Nestea he's depressed and doesn't want to live (jokingly). Nestea tells him 'let toss win titles, so that david kim will nerf toss. Zerg needs to make a living as well. Let's go through together. In reality though, we'll both probably fail to go through.' MC tells DRG to take lessons from Nestea. He also reminds him that P has only reached 3 GSL finals thus far. He also tells DRG that even though toss is strong, he should've beaten the likes of Genius (joke). DRG responds to Nestea by saying he doesn't see a golden age coming for zerg before HOTS is out. If Nestea is right and both of them are knocked out, they should go out for a meal. Nestea says sure. He also says choosing zerg means you have to endure all the hardships that come with it. He says he's aged 10 years over the past one. DRG also calls MC shameless.

That's it.

On February 02 2012 22:11 feanor1 wrote:
Damn next thing Nestea says to MC is going to be "apologize for playing that race"

On February 02 2012 21:15 Telcontar wrote:
I won't translate verbatim, but here's a summary:

DRG says whether it's PvZ or PvT, the deadliness of immortals depend entirely on the 'skill' of forcefields. If the toss fails with FFs, P loses, if not, P wins. MC retorts by saying DRG should switch to toss and hone his 'forcefield skills'. Nestea tells DRG to not QQ and just lose cleanly. DRG tells the toss players to admit P is sickeningly strong right now. He then tells Nestea he's depressed and doesn't want to live (jokingly). Nestea tells him 'let toss win titles, so that david kim will nerf toss. Zerg needs to make a living as well. Let's go through together. In reality though, we'll both probably fail to go through.' MC tells DRG to take lessons from Nestea. He also reminds him that P has only reached 3 GSL finals thus far. He also tells DRG that even though toss is strong, he should've beaten the likes of Genius (joke). DRG responds to Nestea by saying he doesn't see a golden age coming for zerg before HOTS is out. If Nestea is right and both of them are knocked out, they should go out for a meal. Nestea says sure. He also says choosing zerg means you have to endure all the hardships that come with it. He says he's aged 10 years over the past one. DRG also calls MC shameless.

That's it.

On February 02 2012 22:13 Dakkas wrote:


It's not his fault that making forcefields is a good skill toi have

On February 02 2012 22:15 Nibbler89 wrote:

Can you paste which line is DRG calling mc shameless?

On February 02 2012 23:47 quickclickz wrote:
http://imgur.com/a/hQHYS

The shorter the bars, the more dominating you are right?
/thread

On February 02 2012 21:57 Nyor wrote:


"deok bonbatahra two types toss, no matter how the final three waste my deogatnya ssaebwatja gsl?"

Ok, if you can make good sense out of this "translation" without reading the prior posts, the I congratulate you.

On February 02 2012 23:58 MrCon wrote:
Its funny that Nestea found someone to whine even more than him :p

On February 03 2012 00:07 0ne wrote:
If IdrA was involved in this conversation it would be 10 pages of people going crazy and calling him out for bitching

On February 03 2012 00:11 theBALLS wrote:
DRG and nestea should watch stephano's stream perhaps

On February 03 2012 00:19 turamn wrote:
So, basically all they are saying is that Protoss live and die by their forcefields. This isn't anything new.

On February 03 2012 00:11 theBALLS wrote:
DRG and nestea should watch stephano's stream perhaps

On February 03 2012 00:11 theBALLS wrote:
DRG and nestea should watch stephano's stream perhaps

On February 03 2012 00:29 double620 wrote:
Immortal+ sentries timing attack build!!
Another build created by Mc. Another toss build being called Imba.
As a Mc fan, I am pround of Mc.

Btw, at the time Mc lost to happy, mvp and Sc in WCG Korea, he said pvt is balanced. I know that zerg is having a hard time, but if we looked at DRG and Nestea's zvp winrate in GSL, there is no way they should complain the matchup.

I can understand why Idra is complaining tho..

On February 03 2012 00:11 theBALLS wrote:
DRG and nestea should watch stephano's stream perhaps

On February 03 2012 00:10 [F_]aths wrote:

Nestea is wise.

Zerg rarely offers easy wins but it hard to defeat when played properly.

On February 03 2012 00:40 -stOpSKY- wrote:


Thats stupid. Good players are hard to beat, not races.

People need to stop this race whining shit and just try to improve and try new things. I esp hate when I hear anyone below a high level of masters complaining about one race being OP.

On February 02 2012 23:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


For what it's worth, it's pretty much all the stats.

But it's still fun to hear even the top level pros whine when there's nothing to whine about ^^

On February 03 2012 00:45 eYeball wrote:
Didnt David Kim said in his blog that zerg had highest winrates or most prize money earned or something like that?

It's sad to see progamers qq this much

On February 03 2012 00:52 Inori wrote:

And current state of the game shows us that toss has 41% win rate against Zerg....

On February 03 2012 00:21 tdt wrote:
Starting to lose respect for DRG. Toss has only been 3/32 code S finalists less than 10%. Suck badly in Korea since patch 1.2 like a year ago. I guess Protoss is never supposed to win.

On February 03 2012 00:54 SC2NeCro wrote:


From what? Ladder? Tournaments? Before latest patch? After latest patch? Show me the statistic.

The only thing that should matter is pro gamer vs. pro gamer % after the latest patch.

On February 03 2012 00:49 ilbh wrote:


you missed the point... you can't just say the game is balanced based on ladder stats. try to use your brain, this is so obvious and basic...

On February 03 2012 00:36 tdt wrote:

What for? Stepano has never beat MC. DRG has always beat MC.

On February 03 2012 01:13 ReaperX wrote:


MC has beaten DRG before, only online though

edit: KSL

On February 03 2012 01:00 Stress wrote:
The more time you spend complaining about the "imbalance" of a certain race the less time you are spending figuring out how to beat that "imbalance".

On February 03 2012 00:45 eYeball wrote:
Didnt David Kim said in his blog that zerg had highest winrates or most prize money earned or something like that?

It's sad to see progamers qq this much

On February 03 2012 01:32 gh0un wrote:



Why is it sad?
If football was played with two differently sized goals, one big and one small, dont you think the pro football players would complain about it?
Obviously football doesnt feature different races, but you get the point.

Fact is, for these sc2 pro players, this is their career, and if their career is based on a flawed game that isnt balanced well enough, and they happened to choose the weaker race, then not complaining would be the equivalent to the smaller sized goal team not complaining about their goal´s size, which is not sad but simply RETARDED.

Sc2 is still a very young game and no one can claim that the game is balanced or imbalanced.
There is a higher chance it is utterly imbalanced, but since players arent perfect, and the game will never be figured out completely (not even in 10 years), the utter imbalance balances itself out within the metagame.
The better player that uses the better strategy wins, regardless of race... however....

There always is a time when a particular metagame instance is utterly imbalanced and there actually isnt any way of counterbalancing it with another imbalance, like the marine scv rush on small maps like steps of war.
A counter was never figured out, rather the map was taken out of all tournaments.
Given enough time we might have seen someone figure something out, chance is high though that it might have not had any counter measure.

There is a good chance that something will be figured out, something that can be abused to counteract any given imbalance towards their race, but there also is a high probability that there actually is no counterbalance for that particular scenario.
There is value in complaining about something, even if there only is a small chance that it might indeed be an issue.

Sc2 is a game of imbalances that counterbalance each other, claiming that it is balanced is just naive.
Calling progamers that complain about their race sad is just as naive.

On February 03 2012 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


The stats are based on tournaments. Read as: top tier progamers, GM players, and high masters players. And not generic ladder games from people who don't know how to play.

I'm using my brain and reading skills. Thanks Bet you're embarrassed.

On February 03 2012 01:40 eYeball wrote:


They don't have to cry on twitter, better of giving constructive feedback to Blizzard.

On February 03 2012 01:37 Inori wrote:

While that's a stupid statement (are you saying only bad tosses vs good zerg games were in January? or only incontrol played all toss games?), korean stats are not really that much different, about 43% win rate.

On February 03 2012 01:43 Alderan wrote:
So when idrA says it, he's whining about balance.

When DRG and Nestea say it, suddenly it is fact.

/sigh

On February 03 2012 01:48 IdrA wrote:

funny how that works isnt it

On February 03 2012 01:48 IdrA wrote:

funny how that works isnt it

On February 03 2012 01:50 Shiori wrote:

Heh, at least now you have a group to be wrong in collective with.

On February 03 2012 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


You seriously need to learn how to read and click links, dude. The site has international tournament stats and Korean-only tournament stats. And plenty of pro-gamers are also top master/ GM on ladder, so there's overlap.

I've never seen so much fail in one person's set of posts. The link was even provided for you. Click it -.-' Sigh.

On February 03 2012 01:48 IdrA wrote:

funny how that works isnt it

On February 03 2012 02:03 ilbh wrote:

ok, I will explain you how wrong you are. you can't use STATS to judge game balance at KOREAN PRO HIGH LEVEL.

firstly, you are mixing masters and grand masters within tournaments results, that doesn't say shit. tournaments have terrible map pools and the mayority of their players are not even CODE A players.

secondly, even if those tournaments had only TOP CODE S players like the ones who are complaining about balance, sometimes they just don't play at their best because they have CODE S games to be played and they want to hide strategies, builds, etc. or even they are not trying to get mentally tired.

so, in the end you really can't, by any means, use any kind of stats to judge the balance at the really high level CODE S game.

stop acting like if you know more than the HIGH LEVEL korean pros who are complaining about balance.

I'm now saying the game is or is not balance because of one or 2 top players, I'm just saying how wrong you are by using those stats. we can't even have an opinion about the subject cause we have never been at the really high level of play.

EDIT:
also another important thing about STATS is that they don't consider how the game was played. sometimes it was a build order win, a win due to mistake from opponents, etc. some stuff that you really can't use to judge balance.

only people playing at really high level at daily basis can see what is or is not too strong, what build counters what build, etc.

btw, you post too much... more than 10k in less than 2 years lol

On February 03 2012 01:40 eYeball wrote:


They don't have to cry on twitter, better of giving constructive feedback to Blizzard.

On February 03 2012 02:20 Utinni wrote:


The game is changing every month new strats are coming out... EVERY MONTH. Everyone is gonna complain every month...

You're argument about high level players complaining about matchups is silly because THEY ALWAYS COMPLAIN. Watch every video interview, no one is gonna say their race is OP.

I don't know a time when nestea hasn't complained about protoss, even when he was winning GSL's.

About the stats: someone asked for them... I was not using them... they were requested.

On February 03 2012 02:01 darkscream wrote:
I'm not even sure I like the 1-forcefield ramp design to be honest, it gets used offensively way more than defensively in the pvz matchup)

On February 03 2012 02:25 ilbh wrote:

yes, they are always complaing, thanks god they do that, but who you are to judge if they are wrong or not?

btw, you just gave one more reason to never use stats, cause the meta-game is always changing, there are always new strategies, etc.

my point is: no one here can say if the game is or is not balanced and we can't use stats to justify it. that's all.

On February 03 2012 02:40 Utinni wrote:

I never said to use the stats as confirmation, someone asked for them. (you are crazy if you are saying that I told you to go by the stats) as I said before someone asked for them so I gave them the link.

I, unlike you, trust that if they have any complaints with balance, they DO have contacts with blizzard and are hopefully already talking to them about it. I obviously know they have qualms with the game since like I stated before they always complain about the balance (zvp matchup).

Just like the entire world, I play the game as it is given to me. And just like everyone else we have to work with what we got.

EVERYONE HAS DIFFERENT PERCEPTIONS. The TLPD is just one of them... ease up sir. I am not saying live and die by the TLPD winrates, I am saying, accept that there are many different perceptions of this wonderful game ( like you said who are we to say what is or isn't balanced).

On February 03 2012 02:43 ilbh wrote:

lol I don't know if you realize that I wasn't replaying to you, it was for that guy how knows more than nestea and DRG.

On February 03 2012 03:13 Poisonblack wrote:
Most players whine regardless of skill level... MvP and MMA think Terran is UP, Nestea and DRG think Zerg is UP, MC and HuK think Protoss is UP.

There is no way you can take any whining seriously, even from the best of them.

On February 03 2012 03:13 Poisonblack wrote:
Most players whine regardless of skill level... MvP and MMA think Terran is UP, Nestea and DRG think Zerg is UP, MC and HuK think Protoss is UP.

There is no way you can take any whining seriously, even from the best of them.

On February 02 2012 21:47 aebriol wrote:
Copy past to google translate ...

On February 02 2012 22:42 MrCon wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=308394
^^

On February 03 2012 03:24 iNcontroL wrote:
nestea has always complained about zerg... while he was winning everything.

DRG adding his complaints to the mix is new.

IdrA complaining has always been around.. since BW when he played terran, the most winning race with the best players.

Meanwhile statistics show that Zerg wins more. History shows zerg wins more. Apparently I am dumb though cause I rely on results and history.. you know, things that happen outside of the imagination of complainers.

On February 03 2012 01:37 Inori wrote:

While that's a stupid statement (are you saying only bad tosses vs good zerg games were in January? or only incontrol played all toss games?), korean stats are not really that much different, about 43% win rate.

On February 03 2012 03:24 iNcontroL wrote:
nestea has always complained about zerg... while he was winning everything.

DRG adding his complaints to the mix is new.

IdrA complaining has always been around.. since BW when he played terran, the most winning race with the best players.

Meanwhile statistics show that Zerg wins more. History shows zerg wins more. Apparently I am dumb though cause I rely on results and history.. you know, things that happen outside of the imagination of complainers.

On February 03 2012 03:24 iNcontroL wrote:
nestea has always complained about zerg... while he was winning everything.

DRG adding his complaints to the mix is new.

IdrA complaining has always been around.. since BW when he played terran, the most winning race with the best players.

Meanwhile statistics show that Zerg wins more. History shows zerg wins more. Apparently I am dumb though cause I rely on results and history.. you know, things that happen outside of the imagination of complainers.

On February 03 2012 03:24 iNcontroL wrote:...you know, things that happen outside of the imagination of complainers.

On February 03 2012 03:39 Micket wrote:

Incontrol has always complained about Zerg too you know?

As for statistics, results, history, they are all in the past. They do not reflect the current patch or metagame. All the Code S zergs are complaining about Protoss at the moment, whist they weren't 2 months ago. It is only this GSL where I myself have noticed a huge increase in skill in all Protoss players. Parting, oZ, Puzzle have all played sick good. MC is still in it. Meanwhile I watch the recent foreign online tournaments and the foreign Protosses play like garbage compared to the Koreans.

On February 03 2012 03:39 Micket wrote:

Incontrol has always complained about Zerg too you know?

As for statistics, results, history, they are all in the past. They do not reflect the current patch or metagame. All the Code S zergs are complaining about Protoss at the moment, whist they weren't 2 months ago. It is only this GSL where I myself have noticed a huge increase in skill in all Protoss players. Parting, oZ, Puzzle have all played sick good. MC is still in it. Meanwhile I watch the recent foreign online tournaments and the foreign Protosses play like garbage compared to the Koreans.

On February 03 2012 00:34 SuperFanBoy wrote:
how come they are allowed to talk about balance and things being OP, when we can even mention anything like that here on TL.. I think it really hurts the community when you can't discuss the game without being banned :S

On February 03 2012 03:48 Jerubaal wrote:


So what you're saying is that there is no quantifiable basis for assessing balance.

That's a pretty bold statement.

On February 03 2012 03:48 Jerubaal wrote:


So what you're saying is that there is no quantifiable basis for assessing balance.

That's a pretty bold statement.

On February 03 2012 03:24 iNcontroL wrote:
nestea has always complained about zerg... while he was winning everything.

DRG adding his complaints to the mix is new.

IdrA complaining has always been around.. since BW when he played terran, the most winning race with the best players.

Meanwhile statistics show that Zerg wins more. History shows zerg wins more. Apparently I am dumb though cause I rely on results and history.. you know, things that happen outside of the imagination of complainers.

On February 03 2012 04:09 Masq wrote:
Every race is overpowered and underpowered at different aspects of the game.

The problem in my opinion is the design of SC2 and the hard countering system. Until the game is less volatile people are going to continue to complain about balance.

Meanwhile statistics show that Zerg wins more.

On February 03 2012 08:42 Funguuuuu wrote:

This is only true outside of Korea, if you look at ZVP in Korea, Protoss has been favored for the last two months.

On February 03 2012 09:05 ampson wrote:
Ah, the trend of SC2:
Zerg and Toss bitch at each other for months at a time.
Terran wins all the GSLs.

It's funny.

On February 03 2012 09:14 avilo wrote:


Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball.

Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm.

Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying).

I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good...

It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game.

What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up.

On February 03 2012 09:14 avilo wrote:


Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball.

Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm.

Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying).

I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good...

It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game.

What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up.

On February 03 2012 09:31 Adreme wrote:
Yesterday we watched what should have been both Protoss's advancing off of a lot of immortal busts basically. This is also a reason that statistics are a tricky thing to use for balacing starcraft. If you look at yesterdays games for example you have MMA who was going to lose to Oz 2-0 before he move commanded a bunch of his army in and lost it and the game along with it. That game goes down in statistics as a terran win but everyone who watched it knows its cause Oz lost a won game.

On February 03 2012 10:43 zefreak wrote:
It seems people don't realize how lighthearted these comments are.. korean pros always poke fun at each other. While Nestea and DRG might have some legitimate complaints regarding balance, I wouldn't take this as whining like Idra does. When MC says everything about terran and zerg is imba nobody takes it seriously..

On February 03 2012 11:08 mute20 wrote:
imbalanced episode 2 with drg/nestea/idra. Maybe the dream will come alive.

On February 03 2012 09:31 Adreme wrote:


Yesterday we watched what should have been both Protoss's advancing off of a lot of immortal busts basically. This is also a reason that statistics are a tricky thing to use for balacing starcraft. If you look at yesterdays games for example you have MMA who was going to lose to Oz 2-0 before he move commanded a bunch of his army in and lost it and the game along with it. That game goes down in statistics as a terran win but everyone who watched it knows its cause Oz lost a won game.

Then you have the fact that the only league where you have the best of the best playing is Code S in GSL and that doenst have enough games all its own to form effective statistical trends. Even if it did with the ability to pick your map, as we saw last night you get a lot of TvP on Crossfire and we will probably see a lot of ZvP on crossfire soon as well. So basically the only way to judge the state of the game is off of what you see and what you see is a subjective way to judge.

On February 02 2012 21:15 Telcontar wrote:
I won't translate verbatim, but here's a summary:

DRG says whether it's PvZ or PvT, the deadliness of immortals depend entirely on the 'skill' of forcefields. If the toss fails with FFs, P loses, if not, P wins. MC retorts by saying DRG should switch to toss and hone his 'forcefield skills'. Nestea tells DRG to not QQ and just lose cleanly. DRG tells the toss players to admit P is sickeningly strong right now. He then tells Nestea he's depressed and doesn't want to live (jokingly). Nestea tells him 'let toss win titles, so that david kim will nerf toss. Zerg needs to make a living as well. Let's go through together. In reality though, we'll both probably fail to go through.' MC tells DRG to take lessons from Nestea. He also reminds him that P has only reached 3 GSL finals thus far. He also tells DRG that even though toss is strong, he should've beaten the likes of Genius (joke). DRG responds to Nestea by saying he doesn't see a golden age coming for zerg before HOTS is out. If Nestea is right and both of them are knocked out, they should go out for a meal. Nestea says sure. He also says choosing zerg means you have to endure all the hardships that come with it. He says he's aged 10 years over the past one. DRG also calls MC shameless.

That's it.

On February 03 2012 09:14 avilo wrote:


Yep, mostly because throughout SC2's history Korean Terran players have been 10x better than their Zerg/Protoss counterparts. Only in the last 2-3 months have Korean Protosses even caught up and figured out to play defensive vs T, and Zergs in general learned about the brood/corruptor/infestor 100% deathball.

Not only that, there was a larger player pool of Korean Terrans/Terrans in general with the game's release. But mostly Terran still wins a lot in recent times because Terrans have 10x the skill. I agree early on in beta/a bit after release Terran was ezmode. Not so much nowadays though, it's the opposite - Terran takes a massive amount of skill + multitask + apm.

Right now the game is *decently* balanced imo, but if people want to say one race has an advantage over the other two right now, it is definitely Protoss that is too strong right now, having advantages both over Z/T (just like these progamers are saying).

I could elaborate for pages, but let's just say Protosses figured out they never need to attack Terran late game b4 200/200 templar+collosus+turtle mode, and in PvZ protosses figured out with their new cheap upgrade that David Kim gave them, they can have +2/+3 weapons on their 2 base blink stalker all-ins and such at around the 15-17 minute mark...which is crazy good...

It's always nice to read pros when they aren't censoring themselves, like these twitter posts. In my opinion, David Kim himself is swayed way too much by progamer's that personally contact him with their balance opinions. It's not good at all for the game.

What these pros are saying about FF/immortal shinanigans is completely true though - it's completely in the hands of the protoss player doing the FF's good or fucking em up - Terran/Zerg have no say in the matter, they just have to have the prerequisite 6 layered bunkers in place or autolose, and Zerg just has to pray they have enough units or that P fucks up.

On February 03 2012 04:09 CanucksJC wrote:
LOL AT MC
'Even if Toss is good, you should at least beat Genius'

...classic.

On February 03 2012 11:47 Brett wrote:

You've just got it all figured out now, haven't you??

Hilarious that you're still going on about that upgrade issue.

On February 03 2012 20:48 deadmau wrote:


Reading his reply, I can now discredit many of the balance comments he makes, it's obvious he was totally out of touch with what happened with the "upgrade buffs" which gave an extra zealot here, an extra stalker there, and did nothing to quicken the time we complete upgrades. As mentioned proven before, the upgrade changes in that patch did NOTHING to improve toss upgrades in speed, it changed 0, because by the time forges finished, we made sure we had the mins/gas to get them regardless of the cost, so it did nothing to speed them up. Sorry Avilo's "15-17 minute 2-base" argument is phony and totally off base, also in imaginary fairy tale land. The money saved from that buff was hardly anything meaningful. Not saying the guy's a bad player but unable to stand objectively and look at what really went on there.

Many of the complaints I see in here are, sure the stats say this, but this is what really happened. The stats are so skewed in Zerg favor this month, but it's suddenly fine, the stats don't mean much it's not what really happened. However, last month we all heard it's closer now, and it's getting better for the Toss from Zerg. So much bias from all races at any given point in time, but this month Zergs are really despicable. How can you be on top and defend for two months in a row games going in your favor, especially when the latter month is even more retardedly skewed in your favor.

fixed:
DRG: [Zergs are] shameless

On February 03 2012 20:57 Assirra wrote:
I don't see how Zergs are shameless.
He makes a perfect valid point, when it's about forcefields the protoss is in full control and only he decides how it will go.
No amount of skill can break a forcefield.
The best you can hope for is running away your army and pray the toss doesn't split it.
Might i ask where you got the stats are in favor for zerg btw?
It's obviously they are talking only about the top lvl (aka GSL code S) and this season (and previous season) there are less zergs then protoss.

On February 03 2012 21:35 deadmau wrote:


What I'm saying is that on any given month, a race is crying out some BS, one a specific point on a small data set, such as last nights games. But on another month, it's another point with this small data set. There being less zergs this ONE season has nothing to do with it, see you are drawing conclusions off such a specific small data set (so they got unlucky this month?) Sorry, you posted before my edit with TLPD Jan of the stats went through.

Basically, every damn race just goes back and forth about imbalance with heavy bias, and few on here standing objectively. And those twitter posts should be taken with a grain of salt, koreans dick around a lot in regards to balance.

For this specific month however, I'm just saying most zergs are crying fowl from unsubstantiated-whiny-biased points of view, and the data from TLPD don't even back up their cries of imbalance, it's the opposite they're favored. Next month we'll see who whines but right now, zergs cut the bull shit.

On February 04 2012 05:45 Reval wrote:


I think zergs have gotten so used to whining about balance they don't even realise when they're favoured in the match-up. I think that's what's happened

On February 03 2012 20:48 deadmau wrote:


Reading his reply, I can now discredit many of the balance comments he makes, it's obvious he was totally out of touch with what happened with the "upgrade buffs" which gave an extra zealot here, an extra stalker there, and did nothing to quicken the time we complete upgrades. As mentioned proven before, the upgrade changes in that patch did NOTHING to improve toss upgrades in speed, it changed 0, because by the time forges finished, we made sure we had the mins/gas to get them regardless of the cost, so it did nothing to speed them up. Sorry Avilo's "15-17 minute 2-base" argument is phony and totally off base, also in imaginary fairy tale land. The money saved from that buff was hardly anything meaningful. Not saying the guy's a bad player but unable to stand objectively and look at what really went on there.

Many of the complaints I see in here are, sure the stats say this, but this is what really happened. The stats are so skewed in Zerg favor this month, but it's suddenly fine, the stats don't mean much it's not what really happened. However, last month we all heard it's closer now, and it's getting better for the Toss from Zerg. So much bias from all races at any given point in time, but this month Zergs are really despicable. How can you be on top and defend for two months in a row games going in your favor, especially when the latter month is even more retardedly skewed in your favor.

fixed:
DRG: [Zergs are] shameless

On February 04 2012 05:54 fraktoasters wrote:


As a Zerg I use to do a build where I got really fast +1 melee after speed by keeping my drones in the gas. You know when I made the evo chamber? When I had 25 gas because I would have 100gas by the time it finished.

If the upgraded was cheaper, say 75gas, I would then start my evo chamber immediately after starting speed. So you see, by making the upgrade cheaper, I can start my evo chamber sooner so that my gas lines up with it.

It's complicate I know, but cheaper upgrades can mean quicker upgrades. /rollseyes

On February 04 2012 05:50 blade55555 wrote:


Just thought I would point out toss players are no different lol. The race that least balance whines is terran anyway so I wouldn't talk ^^.

On February 04 2012 10:13 Reval wrote:


I know that. It just seems that zerg have been whining since beta. First it was terran, now it's toss

On February 04 2012 10:53 TypeOne wrote:
drg and nestea should learn from Stephano and im sure they will soon!

On February 04 2012 10:58 dde wrote:
i hope nestea and drg saw the january win race statistics chart. Funny how they dont even talk about terran.

On February 04 2012 10:36 Trealador wrote:
We can't have a real conversation about balance until the mass retarded public don't see the game as it is now. They see it as a span on a few months. Terran right now, are struggling, and protoss and zerg are meta-gaming and figuring out things a lot quicker and more efficiently. You can take this as Terran crying, but as of right now I no longer feel that terran is the best race by any stretch of the imagination. There are a lot of terran in the GSL because blizzard takes forever to change things. Now that they have made several changes and zerg/protoss are learning how to play against terran, there will soon be a wide shortage of Terran soon. I honestly don't care what anyone says, MMA or MVP losing by anything short of a few inches shows how unbalanced the game can be. MMA is probably the best terran in the world, and unless he is playing MC, DRG, or Nestea, there really is no way he can lose to some no name. That is what balance is all about right? The best player wins.

On February 03 2012 01:48 IdrA wrote:

funny how that works isnt it

On February 03 2012 21:39 TooL wrote:
force fields make the game less fun.

On February 04 2012 10:53 TypeOne wrote:
drg and nestea should learn from Stephano and im sure they will soon!

On February 04 2012 11:39 Pwnographics wrote:
In my opinion most zergs whine about protoss because forcefields pretend them from doing anything.

They win games because the toss screws up more so than they playing good.

On February 04 2012 11:46 bubblegumbo wrote:
Poor Genius, will he ever get a break?

On February 04 2012 11:46 bubblegumbo wrote:
Poor Genius, will he ever get a break?

On February 04 2012 06:04 TrickyGilligan wrote:


Except you're completely wrong. The cost of the first upgrade remained the same for everything but shields. Even if you're going double forge, no one gets shields first, even with the cheaper cost it's just not worth it compared to armor and attack.

So no, even if you build your forge 25 gas sooner, you don't get upgrades any faster. It's the +2/+2 that had the cost changed. When do you start +2/+2? When +1 finishes! Cost has had no effect on upgrade speed, because you could start +2/+2 as soon as +1/+1 was finished pre-patch.