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On February 04 2012 16:03 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:39 Micket wrote:On February 03 2012 03:24 iNcontroL wrote:
nestea has always complained about zerg... while he was winning everything.
DRG adding his complaints to the mix is new.
IdrA complaining has always been around.. since BW when he played terran, the most winning race with the best players.
Meanwhile statistics show that Zerg wins more. History shows zerg wins more. Apparently I am dumb though cause I rely on results and history.. you know, things that happen outside of the imagination of complainers. Incontrol has always complained about Zerg too you know? As for statistics, results, history, they are all in the past. They do not reflect the current patch or metagame. All the Code S zergs are complaining about Protoss at the moment, whist they weren't 2 months ago. It is only this GSL where I myself have noticed a huge increase in skill in all Protoss players. Parting, oZ, Puzzle have all played sick good. MC is still in it. Meanwhile I watch the recent foreign online tournaments and the foreign Protosses play like garbage compared to the Koreans. ye its a good point and i agree. i think protoss players recently has gained a ton of skill, and figured out alot more bo's etc if zergs are right or not is not something i want to comment on but. please realize that every single zerg player that has made a comment about zvp the last 1.5 month says they are having a hard time. top koreans such as nestea, drg, code a qualified korean zergs in winner interviews, and our beloved foreigners like dimaga, sen and idra are whining alot more now than they usually do. you almost have to stop and ask yourself, why are they all doing this now? much moreso than before one theory behind the zvp balance whining could be. toss players lose in gsl and you see them lose these games where they totally fuck up ff's or just randomly gets super surprised by mutalisk and loses a ton of units or probes. or in general we are always pointing the finger on toss and focusing on the toss play alot more than zergs. the fact that we are focusing more on how the toss plays in zvp could be something drg was talking about. or something the top foreigner zergs are talking about. casters and players and viewers focus more on the protosses play more in general because its perhaps in the hands of protoss to play a beautiful game while zerg does it quite regulary. so that being said, if that were true that would mean the zerg players we are seeing are doing more things right than the protoss, that they figured more out how to play than the toss, ergo arguably better. so a toss player fucks up their ff or do a terrible mistake, they dont need to talk balance because they can see the mistakes they did. drg or nestea however, playing and practically understanding the matchup more than any other zergs out there. plays vs a toss who just microes beautifully and gets the timings down perfect and forcefields and they loses (the zerg). then they cant see what mistakes they did in this game, because both played such a beautiful game. im not going out here and saying its imba, or i think its imba. im just trying to give you another perspective or a point of view, so you can maybe understand more why these zergs are saying these things now and not before, or saying anything at all. toss players have simply become alot better recently, theres not much more to it. a patch decreasing the upgrade costs for toss can only do so much, but never could it have impacted this much on both pvt and pvz, that can only mean that toss players have become much better. we will probably only see more and more tosses in gsl from here on until a patch comes out, because they get inspired and is able to copy and mimic what the successful tosses in code S are doing, along with code A. its just natural that it goes that way. and none of this really necessarily has to do with balance, sometimes a race just makes huge leaps in terms of skill and figuring out new builds, thats just the way it is. lets wait and see in 2-3 months what happens, its abit too soon to have facts, right now all that consists are opinions (valid ones along with stupid whine)
As always, a great post by Morrow. +1
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Yeah, Protoss are too OP yet MC is the only Protoss to win GSL this far. When Protoss were dropping like flies last year, none of these pro players really give any concern about Protoss. Everyone think Protoss is easy to beat. Nestea ZvP is like 90%. Lorisa ZvP is like 85% and so on. If you ask Korean Terrans last year, almost every Terran will tell you their best match up is TvP. I simply think that Zerg and Terran has ignored Protoss for too long and they are suffering the consequences.
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Balance discussions seems so much more sense-making when it's between the very best players
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No offense, but isn't this something that we already knew?
FFs don't really allow for 'counter micro'... it is a known problem with spellcasters in SC2? Isn't it? Now I don't follow SC2 super hard, used to play a lot back in beta and now i just catch games from time to time... but I thought what they were saying was common knowledge that there has been threads on. A lot of the spells in SC2 (fungal, FFs, Concussive shells) don't really allow for counter micro. So a strategy depending on whether or not the user of those spells uses them well doesn't seem that farfetched, leaving the person fighting against the spells doesn't really have a say in the matter.
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On February 04 2012 19:27 UPSExpress wrote:
Yeah, Protoss are too OP yet MC is the only Protoss to win GSL this far. When Protoss were dropping like flies last year, none of these pro players really give any concern about Protoss. Everyone think Protoss is easy to beat. Nestea ZvP is like 90%. Lorisa ZvP is like 85% and so on. If you ask Korean Terrans last year, almost every Terran will tell you their best match up is TvP. I simply think that Zerg and Terran has ignored Protoss for too long and they are suffering the consequences.
Players win tournaments, not races, and only looking at tournament winner is not a good way to judge balance because there are many different factors to consider. Zerg was the weakest race in the beginning yet they won the first 2 tournaments.
You are citing stats from ancient times (and they are off anyway, Losira for example is only 66% against Toss and 2-4 in recent games, but he is slumping), Toss players started to evolve from 4/6gating or 2base colossi all ins(and that's basically 80% of what they did when the players you mentioned farmed their wins) and they can actually play decent games now which wasn't the case for a long time.
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I liked it in Elizabethan English better. 
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This post isn't about balance at all (from the summary) It's just pros bantering on... Thought I was about to get some in depth conversation, talk about a let down.
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On February 04 2012 16:03 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:39 Micket wrote:On February 03 2012 03:24 iNcontroL wrote:
nestea has always complained about zerg... while he was winning everything.
DRG adding his complaints to the mix is new.
IdrA complaining has always been around.. since BW when he played terran, the most winning race with the best players.
Meanwhile statistics show that Zerg wins more. History shows zerg wins more. Apparently I am dumb though cause I rely on results and history.. you know, things that happen outside of the imagination of complainers. Incontrol has always complained about Zerg too you know? As for statistics, results, history, they are all in the past. They do not reflect the current patch or metagame. All the Code S zergs are complaining about Protoss at the moment, whist they weren't 2 months ago. It is only this GSL where I myself have noticed a huge increase in skill in all Protoss players. Parting, oZ, Puzzle have all played sick good. MC is still in it. Meanwhile I watch the recent foreign online tournaments and the foreign Protosses play like garbage compared to the Koreans. ye its a good point and i agree. i think protoss players recently has gained a ton of skill, and figured out alot more bo's etc if zergs are right or not is not something i want to comment on but. please realize that every single zerg player that has made a comment about zvp the last 1.5 month says they are having a hard time. top koreans such as nestea, drg, code a qualified korean zergs in winner interviews, and our beloved foreigners like dimaga, sen and idra are whining alot more now than they usually do. you almost have to stop and ask yourself, why are they all doing this now? much moreso than before one theory behind the zvp balance whining could be. toss players lose in gsl and you see them lose these games where they totally fuck up ff's or just randomly gets super surprised by mutalisk and loses a ton of units or probes. or in general we are always pointing the finger on toss and focusing on the toss play alot more than zergs. the fact that we are focusing more on how the toss plays in zvp could be something drg was talking about. or something the top foreigner zergs are talking about. casters and players and viewers focus more on the protosses play more in general because its perhaps in the hands of protoss to play a beautiful game while zerg does it quite regulary. so that being said, if that were true that would mean the zerg players we are seeing are doing more things right than the protoss, that they figured more out how to play than the toss, ergo arguably better. so a toss player fucks up their ff or do a terrible mistake, they dont need to talk balance because they can see the mistakes they did. drg or nestea however, playing and practically understanding the matchup more than any other zergs out there. plays vs a toss who just microes beautifully and gets the timings down perfect and forcefields and they loses (the zerg). then they cant see what mistakes they did in this game, because both played such a beautiful game. im not going out here and saying its imba, or i think its imba. im just trying to give you another perspective or a point of view, so you can maybe understand more why these zergs are saying these things now and not before, or saying anything at all. toss players have simply become alot better recently, theres not much more to it. a patch decreasing the upgrade costs for toss can only do so much, but never could it have impacted this much on both pvt and pvz, that can only mean that toss players have become much better. we will probably only see more and more tosses in gsl from here on until a patch comes out, because they get inspired and is able to copy and mimic what the successful tosses in code S are doing, along with code A. its just natural that it goes that way. and none of this really necessarily has to do with balance, sometimes a race just makes huge leaps in terms of skill and figuring out new builds, thats just the way it is. lets wait and see in 2-3 months what happens, its abit too soon to have facts, right now all that consists are opinions (valid ones along with stupid whine)
The most objective, well-thought out non-zerg bias post I've seen yet in this thread. Morrow deserves a big applause, zergs listen to this guy.
Tally up Morrow as a pro you can depend on for subjective outlook.
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On February 04 2012 16:03 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 03:39 Micket wrote:On February 03 2012 03:24 iNcontroL wrote:
nestea has always complained about zerg... while he was winning everything.
DRG adding his complaints to the mix is new.
IdrA complaining has always been around.. since BW when he played terran, the most winning race with the best players.
Meanwhile statistics show that Zerg wins more. History shows zerg wins more. Apparently I am dumb though cause I rely on results and history.. you know, things that happen outside of the imagination of complainers. Incontrol has always complained about Zerg too you know? As for statistics, results, history, they are all in the past. They do not reflect the current patch or metagame. All the Code S zergs are complaining about Protoss at the moment, whist they weren't 2 months ago. It is only this GSL where I myself have noticed a huge increase in skill in all Protoss players. Parting, oZ, Puzzle have all played sick good. MC is still in it. Meanwhile I watch the recent foreign online tournaments and the foreign Protosses play like garbage compared to the Koreans. ye its a good point and i agree. i think protoss players recently has gained a ton of skill, and figured out alot more bo's etc if zergs are right or not is not something i want to comment on but. please realize that every single zerg player that has made a comment about zvp the last 1.5 month says they are having a hard time. top koreans such as nestea, drg, code a qualified korean zergs in winner interviews, and our beloved foreigners like dimaga, sen and idra are whining alot more now than they usually do. you almost have to stop and ask yourself, why are they all doing this now? much moreso than before one theory behind the zvp balance whining could be. toss players lose in gsl and you see them lose these games where they totally fuck up ff's or just randomly gets super surprised by mutalisk and loses a ton of units or probes. or in general we are always pointing the finger on toss and focusing on the toss play alot more than zergs.the fact that we are focusing more on how the toss plays in zvp could be something drg was talking about. or something the top foreigner zergs are talking about. casters and players and viewers focus more on the protosses play more in general because its perhaps in the hands of protoss to play a beautiful game while zerg does it quite regulary. so that being said, if that were true that would mean the zerg players we are seeing are doing more things right than the protoss, that they figured more out how to play than the toss, ergo arguably better. so a toss player fucks up their ff or do a terrible mistake, they dont need to talk balance because they can see the mistakes they did. drg or nestea however, playing and practically understanding the matchup more than any other zergs out there. plays vs a toss who just microes beautifully and gets the timings down perfect and forcefields and they loses (the zerg). then they cant see what mistakes they did in this game, because both played such a beautiful game. im not going out here and saying its imba, or i think its imba. im just trying to give you another perspective or a point of view, so you can maybe understand more why these zergs are saying these things now and not before, or saying anything at all. toss players have simply become alot better recently, theres not much more to it. a patch decreasing the upgrade costs for toss can only do so much, but never could it have impacted this much on both pvt and pvz, that can only mean that toss players have become much better. we will probably only see more and more tosses in gsl from here on until a patch comes out, because they get inspired and is able to copy and mimic what the successful tosses in code S are doing, along with code A. its just natural that it goes that way. and none of this really necessarily has to do with balance, sometimes a race just makes huge leaps in terms of skill and figuring out new builds, thats just the way it is. lets wait and see in 2-3 months what happens, its abit too soon to have facts, right now all that consists are opinions (valid ones along with stupid whine)
I agree with a lot here. But in this post also tells ppl how hard it is to play toss, one mistake, one wrong placed ff and that is game. When a player no matter which race he plays if he can play the game without making any mistake, ofc the race he is playing looking very strong. You r saying casters and viewers focus a lot more on the toss player's play more than the zerg one. why? Because the toss player is not allowed to make a mistake. Any mistake will put you far behind.
A few months ago in gsl especially in codeS, zergs had about 70% winrate against toss and had about 45% or less against terrans then ofc they are playing more zvt than zvp because they wanted to win. Right now, toss had roughly 60% winrate in gsl against zergs, a reason for that is because toss refined their timings and zergs can not deal with it. But it does not mean toss is imba, it just shows you atm zergs are having a hard time dealing with those refined timings.
Half a yr ago, Mc went stargame every game and defeated every zerg opponent and ppl said stargate play in pvz is imba. But it was not, when it got figured out, it became nothing special.
Also, a lot of top toss players in gsl did not get super surprised by mutas play and lost. They know it is possible that mutas are coming and they could not stop it. Toss players are learning how to deal with mutas and they are getting better and better. They are learning and improving.
Lastly, there is nothing wrong to see more toss players in gsl in the future because in the past a few months a lot of them droped out of gsl because of game imbalance including Mc himself.
I know zergs are having a hard time, but at least zergs had been dominating toss before while zergs have never have been able to dominate terrans.
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The thing about Toss and Terran VS the Zerg is that:
A Terran can always come back, even if you do a good amount of damage, the Terran can can comeback by turtlestyle and a good unit comp. The splash damage and dps on all the weak Z units are sick, but thats just the gamedesign with all the counters. Thor+tank+marine vs Muta+bling+ling. All the splash damage makes it hard for Z. And they got alot of openings to harm Z, they are so mobile both on ground and in air EXTREMLY early compared to Zerg. The mapcontrol they can have with Hellions is insane.
A Toss can always do great FF's and with great FF's they instantly win, it's as simple as that. If the Ultralisk had some speed, this wouldnt have been a problem. Even in a 200 vs 200 fight without FF the Toss wins easy cuz of the mass-stalkers with blink. The zerg cant reinforce with units fast enough to prevent his death. The toss reinforce his gateway units quicker than the Zerg reinforce his Zerglings, which is basically a joke lategame. Note that all those units the Zerg gets out are coming out of all diffrent directions and u gotta micro them to clump them up without dying before they come out and u gotta use the Queen to inject so u keep up with all the hazzle. The toss simply click in a field to reinforce and keeps boosting his gateways through his Nexus..quite simple, almost too simple.
Complainments to Zergs:
But things I gotta complain that Zergs doesnt do is like mass baneling vs Stalkers, flank the army or the good old baneling drops we did often for a while. Cuz the Zerg just wont win with Mutas or Broodlords vs Stalkers with blink in a lategame scenario on a prolevel if they do it like they are doing it right now. It looks silly most of the time when u try to go roach vs Stalkers and just simply fail aswell...
When there is a basetrade scenario with the broodlords+lings vs mass-stalker and blink why is Zerg not making some spinecrawlers to move with the army while cleaning up the rest of the protoss? And I dont get it. I mean when they got broodlords out and the toss is cleaning your base just do some spinecrawlers to walk with the broodlords so you dont die. You could get lucky.
edit:
Note that there is a reason why GSL is the toughest league and there are not more than 4 good Zergs in the league. The only Zergs I think are actually really skilled are Nestea, Drg, Leenock and Losira. The rest are not even interessting to me cuz they just die over and over cuz they getting owned by another race.
I normally play random..but I might just go Terran or Toss fulltime soon since there are not good enough Z players out there soon.
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On February 04 2012 18:48 Zanazuah wrote:
It's true tho. Toss is the strongest race atm.
Of course, its only logical that the most difficult race to play would be the strongest.
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Of course, its only logical that the most difficult race to play would be the strongest.
I heard its very hard to Warp-in-macro and sit in your base, chronoing mass upgrades and deflecting harassment while getting 3 bases and then steamroll everything in your way with minimal micro.
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On February 04 2012 22:14 Zanazuah wrote:Show nested quote +Of course, its only logical that the most difficult race to play would be the strongest. I heard its very hard to Warp-in-macro and sit in your base, chronoing mass upgrades and deflecting harassment while getting 3 bases and then steamroll everything in your way with minimal micro.
yes, that's how Protoss players play. think about it first, biased POS
edit: please switch to protoss and see yourself  but ofc: everyone who complains about balance has already done that and steamrolled everyone with no effort.
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On February 04 2012 22:14 Zanazuah wrote:Show nested quote +Of course, its only logical that the most difficult race to play would be the strongest. I heard its very hard to Warp-in-macro and sit in your base, chronoing mass upgrades and deflecting harassment while getting 3 bases and then steamroll everything in your way with minimal micro.
I heard its also very hard to sit in your base and spam mules and MMMG all game long and then steamroll anything with minimum (i.e: zero) brainpower.
What is your point? That its easy to make yourself look dumb with biased as fuck statements that you shit out just because someone beat you on ladder and you're having a hard time accepting that you're very bad at this game?
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It's funny though how people all agree on protoss being the easiest to start with but when it becomes a question of mastery, protoss players arbitrarily begin acting like their race is just as hard and thus respectable as the others. Have conversations with protoss players at the same MMR as you (as a non protoss) and enjoy the huge gap between your understanding of the game and theirs. Everyone who isn't an unscrutinizing newb is able to see the joke of protoss. Protoss is for when you want to eat pizza and talk to your girlfriend on the phone, while she also plays protoss.
And then when actually good players, far better than them, have an opinion, they are all in a rush to point a finger and say "bias!" or "whiner!" thus putting themselves on equal footing, if not above someone who is infinitely better at understanding the game than they will ever be. Jokes of the newbie defenders of illusory equilibrium in a new game.
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On February 04 2012 22:27 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 22:14 Zanazuah wrote:Of course, its only logical that the most difficult race to play would be the strongest. I heard its very hard to Warp-in-macro and sit in your base, chronoing mass upgrades and deflecting harassment while getting 3 bases and then steamroll everything in your way with minimal micro. I heard its also very hard to sit in your base and spam mules and MMMG all game long and then steamroll anything with minimum (i.e: zero) brainpower. What is your point? That its easy to make yourself look dumb with biased as fuck statements that you shit out just because someone beat you on ladder and you're having a hard time accepting that you're very bad at this game?
Because your statement about the easiest race to play being the hardest was not even remotely biased... Macro with toss is so much easier, forcefields are not that hard given you don't lose your sentries. When you have 7 sentries with full energy you can miss 50% of your forcefields and still survive because you have an abundance of them.
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On February 04 2012 22:27 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 22:14 Zanazuah wrote:Of course, its only logical that the most difficult race to play would be the strongest. I heard its very hard to Warp-in-macro and sit in your base, chronoing mass upgrades and deflecting harassment while getting 3 bases and then steamroll everything in your way with minimal micro. I heard its also very hard to sit in your base and spam mules and MMMG all game long and then steamroll anything with minimum (i.e: zero) brainpower. What is your point? That its easy to make yourself look dumb with biased as fuck statements that you shit out just because someone beat you on ladder and you're having a hard time accepting that you're very bad at this game?
The point is protoss is not the hardest race to play, sorry buddy.
But it doesn't matter anyway.
As a zerg player, I don't think protoss is OP, but the race design make it seems so from time to time.
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On February 04 2012 22:11 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 18:48 Zanazuah wrote:
It's true tho. Toss is the strongest race atm. Of course, its only logical that the most difficult race to play would be the strongest.
10/10
I lold
Protoss in SC2 remind of Orcs from WC3.
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On February 04 2012 22:14 Zanazuah wrote:Show nested quote +Of course, its only logical that the most difficult race to play would be the strongest. I heard its very hard to Warp-in-macro and sit in your base, chronoing mass upgrades and deflecting harassment while getting 3 bases and then steamroll everything in your way with minimal micro.
You can only do that against bad terran and zerg players.
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On February 04 2012 22:41 Mashmed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 22:27 TheAntZ wrote:On February 04 2012 22:14 Zanazuah wrote:Of course, its only logical that the most difficult race to play would be the strongest. I heard its very hard to Warp-in-macro and sit in your base, chronoing mass upgrades and deflecting harassment while getting 3 bases and then steamroll everything in your way with minimal micro. I heard its also very hard to sit in your base and spam mules and MMMG all game long and then steamroll anything with minimum (i.e: zero) brainpower. What is your point? That its easy to make yourself look dumb with biased as fuck statements that you shit out just because someone beat you on ladder and you're having a hard time accepting that you're very bad at this game? Because your statement about the easiest race to play being the hardest was not even remotely biased...
Did you even see the post I quoted? It was sarcasm that i responded with. I dont know which race is strongest. I dont know which race is hardest. It is impossible to quantitatively measure that at this point. The statement Of course, its only logical that the most difficult race to play would be the strongest. was meant to show the person i was replying to that just about anyone can type a biased comment, it doesnt make it true.
On February 04 2012 22:42 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 22:27 TheAntZ wrote:On February 04 2012 22:14 Zanazuah wrote:Of course, its only logical that the most difficult race to play would be the strongest. I heard its very hard to Warp-in-macro and sit in your base, chronoing mass upgrades and deflecting harassment while getting 3 bases and then steamroll everything in your way with minimal micro. I heard its also very hard to sit in your base and spam mules and MMMG all game long and then steamroll anything with minimum (i.e: zero) brainpower. What is your point? That its easy to make yourself look dumb with biased as fuck statements that you shit out just because someone beat you on ladder and you're having a hard time accepting that you're very bad at this game? The point is protoss is not the hardest race to play, sorry buddy.
So zerg is the hardest?
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EPT
