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Parcelleus
Australia1662 Posts
Zerg has never failed to do well. ie. Leenock, Stephano. I think it is more about the state of SC2 as a balanced RTS game, it still has many problems. So atm, the early, mid and late game has different races being stronger at different times, this needs to be ironed out. As a good RTS game shouldnt depend so strongly on TIMINGS but more diverse RTS strats and tactics. | ||
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clusen
Germany8702 Posts
On February 04 2012 22:11 TheAntZ wrote: Of course, its only logical that the most difficult race to play would be the strongest. Which is why Terrans won the most tournaments followed by Zerg. Am I doing it right?:p | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
I'll start by saying I main Protoss. Protoss has won the least number of GSL, and Force Field has always been in the game. Do pros just suddenly got better at Force Field and then they are steamrolling people? No, these pros have been very good at Forcefield since as early as GSL began. They may have gotten marginally better, but I really don't think we have seen significantly improvements in just the departments of Force Field. I don't think Protoss is underpowered or overpowered, and I don't think I'm good enough to comment on races' relative strengths at the highest playing field, but I think it's pretty stupid to say X is overpowered because you or your favorite race player lost games. New strategies come up and they become refined while their opponents try to figure out the correct response. If after a period of time there are still no solution to these strategies, then we can start crying nerf. | ||
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dannystarcraft
United States179 Posts
On a more serious note, I think there are some imbalances, but I don't think it is enough to warrant this statement: "I played perfectly, but I lost to another race. The imbalance in the game is messing with the results of the match." Obviously, no one plays perfect, and there is plenty of room to improve in order to win games and match-ups (even in Korean games). As long as people can still improve to win games the small imbalances are irrelevant to the game. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
Zerg seem quite satified being underdog to terran for over a year but #3 is just unteanble for them so they go whine like crazy when that starts happening. | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
On February 05 2012 00:07 tdt wrote: I think this is all premptive whining so King David doesnt give Phoenix +1 range or something next patch when he talked about protoss continued weakness at the tippy top over at battlenet. honestly I really wouldn't mind giving Marine some kind of AoE resistance if we can tone down its dps a bit, but that is another issue by itself. There are many wishlists we players make (namely buffs to our race and nerfs to others), but we really need to think from other perspective. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On February 05 2012 00:10 david0925 wrote: honestly I really wouldn't mind giving Marine some kind of AoE resistance if we can tone down its dps a bit, but that is another issue by itself. There are many wishlists we players make (namely buffs to our race and nerfs to others), but we really need to think from other perspective. Honestly as long as FF and WG are around this game will be impossible to look balanced from a veiwing prospective. I am suprized they even made them work as well as they have but one misclick or proper clicks can utterly stomp opposition or vis versa. This idea of living and dying by FF and only defenders advantage being WG any little change to protoss magnifies any change to units more than any race. That's why I think they will go air if they adjust protoss at all. | ||
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bananafone
68 Posts
I dont think DRG thinks protoss as a whole is overpowered i think hes just really tired of losing games to stuff that's outside of hes control. | ||
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HappyVlane
Austria21 Posts
On February 05 2012 00:34 bananafone wrote: DRG is right. FF's are stupid and they should not be accessible in early game. The statistics are near worthless in this discussion. If the game was changed to just be a game where the protoss got to throw a 10 sided dice and wins if he hits an even number and otherwise loses the game would be balanced, but it would be fucking awful. Forcefields are retarded early game seeing as there is no counter to it. Furthermore no other element of SC2 is as fine of line as forcefields are. The tiniest crack in them can and often will decide entire games while the deployment and usage of them is solely in the hands of one of the players. The other player just sits back and prays the protoss fucks up, fun game huh? Something as important and deciding of a gamefactor should not be restricted to only one of the players. I dont think DRG thinks protoss as a whole is overpowered i think hes just really tired of losing games to stuff that's outside of hes control. No forcefields in the early game would throw PvP back into it's 4-gate time, which nobody wants. There is also another mechanic in the game that relies on the enemy not fucking up which can also decide battles. A fungle growth. So DRG complaining about forcefields is like a terran/protoss complaining about fungle growth being too good. | ||
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xelnaga_galaxy
1 Post
On February 04 2012 18:48 Zanazuah wrote: It's true tho. Toss is the strongest race atm. Yeah, I agree. It's very easy to win as Toss now - you can A-click with a 200/200 army and it's an automatic victory for Toss. I was a mid Diamond player before all the buffs to Toss but then I switched to Toss after the buffs and now I am a top 10 Masters player. DRG and Nestea are right about Toss. MC was horrible at BW but he won multiple GSLs - shows you how OP Toss was when a failed BW player can win so many GSLs. | ||
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Thombur
95 Posts
On February 05 2012 00:34 bananafone wrote: FF's are stupid and they should not be accessible in early game. Imagine protoss without early forcefields vs zerg. Oh, 28 zerglings in P's base while P has 1 zealot and 1 stalker to defend with. Quite silly. Perhaps it could work if Protoss had pylons that could be put into noclip mode like supply depots. The problem with Protoss atm is that it's balanced around having a lot less defender's advantage than the other races. Zerg can spot what is incoming and have faster production at home to counter with. Terrans have bunkers, siege tanks, better wall offs, planetary fortresses. Protoss has the least defender's advantage and this means forcefields become such a big cornerstone. (Warpgate mechanic does not really give that much defenders advantage, you can't spend all your time not warping in units just to have it available later on. No real difference between terrand constantly building out of barracks and protoss constatnly warping in, except that protoss can warp in offensively which actually balances with the other races stronger defenders advantage). | ||
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double620
China804 Posts
On February 05 2012 00:55 xelnaga_galaxy wrote: Yeah, I agree. It's very easy to win as Toss now - you can A-click with a 200/200 army and it's an automatic victory for Toss. I was a mid Diamond player before all the buffs to Toss but then I switched to Toss after the buffs and now I am a top 10 Masters player. DRG and Nestea are right about Toss. MC was horrible at BW but he won multiple GSLs - shows you how OP Toss was when a failed BW player can win so many GSLs. Nestea and MMA are both failed BW players too and they won even more. That just goes to show you how op zerg and terran are. | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
That poster also made a new ID just to make that post, so don't take him too seriously. | ||
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double620
China804 Posts
On February 05 2012 02:05 david0925 wrote: There's an entire different thread involving "LOL FAIL BW PLAYERS DOMINATING SC2". Go there if you want to have that kind of conversation. That poster also made a new ID just to make that post, so don't take him too seriously. I am sry to do that here, I just got a bit annoyed when I saw that. Plz ignore that. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On February 04 2012 22:55 Parcelleus wrote: If Toss was the strongest why are they not winning everything and the most successful like Terran for most of 2011. Zerg has never failed to do well. ie. Leenock, Stephano. I think it is more about the state of SC2 as a balanced RTS game, it still has many problems. So atm, the early, mid and late game has different races being stronger at different times, this needs to be ironed out. As a good RTS game shouldnt depend so strongly on TIMINGS but more diverse RTS strats and tactics. yes, i do feel this is the biggest problem with every Protoss matchup, and this makes SC2 worse, and protoss a boring race to play against or watch. Zerg can win aganist protoss with 6 pool or some early bust OR can base-race with mutaling OR camp and get infestor+BL out. Protoss can win with tons of early game/mid game timing allins and cheeses, can win the base race and can also camp to the deathball and one punch the zerg or fail. These scenarios above describe 80-90% of ZvPs these days, which is utterly boring and stupid not to mention balance, there are so incredibly few games which are back and forth with transitions and harassment from both sides. Most of the times it's decided by one battle, be that early game or 25th minute mark, if it occurs at all and not just base race. I'm no expert to PvT but it feels somewhat similar with so many 1 base allins viable, and so many camping games. And PvP is hated since beta as far as i can tell, by both players and spectators. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
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ooozer
Germany231 Posts
Protoss can't flank, they're too slow and clumb. Stalkers could, but they get raped by stim or lings/broodlings. Protoss Deathball has a timing push charackter. It's strong until a certain point. Terran Bio Deathball with 10 Ghost rapes toss (blanket EMP Stim), Zerg BL/Infestor owns Toss with good Blord spread (no Archon toilett possible due to spread). Protoss ist stale, gimmicky and coinflippy. The whole race design is flawed . It seems like the toss dmg output is linear with a little "jump" once Aoe kicks in. While the other races have exponential dmg out put. Slow increase in the first few minutes, rapidly icreasing when tech kicks in | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
T and Z players say get better you Protoss players suck dick don't know how to macro etc. Protoss pulls win percentages remotely within the 50% range : OMG PROTOSS OP WTF IS THIS NONSENSE BROKEN NERF PLEASE. This is what I see on Teamliquid all the time. The statistics are the most reliable way to tell balance, especially over long periods of time. Protoss by far was the weakest race in SC2 for a large measure of time, and yet everyone just kept saying Protoss players were bad/non-innovative/etc. etc. So all of a sudden when Protoss players just simply play better (None of the buffs except Warp Prism buff was significant), all of a sudden everyone is whining that Protoss is overpowered, even though the most recent tournament statistics show that Protoss is in fact still the weakest race on an international level? Don't make me laugh. Morrow described it perfectly. As a Protoss player it is EASY to see your mistakes, because one little minor mistakes means you instantly die as a Protoss player. It is not the same as Zerg or Terran players, because those races allow some wiggle room with mistakes because they have mechanics that allow them to come back in the game (Zerg has larvae inject to cover up some of their micro mistakes, and Terran just needs one lucky drop to go off in the main and all of a sudden a Protoss/Zerg gets fucked royally in the ass, not to mention mules). As a Protoss player, you live and die by your ability to win fights. It is the most army micro centric race in the game. Of course it will seem "overpowered" that a good Protoss player is wiping your 200 supply armies over and over again. That's because the race is designed that way if you play them properly, just like how Z has a huge midgame advantage over both T and P, and T has alot of utility that the other races don't. | ||
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