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On February 03 2012 01:48 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 01:43 Alderan wrote:
So when idrA says it, he's whining about balance.
When DRG and Nestea say it, suddenly it is fact.
/sigh funny how that works isnt it
Heh, at least now you have a group to be wrong in collective with.
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the moral of this story is that nestea is a baller
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On February 03 2012 01:50 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 01:48 IdrA wrote:On February 03 2012 01:43 Alderan wrote:
So when idrA says it, he's whining about balance.
When DRG and Nestea say it, suddenly it is fact.
/sigh funny how that works isnt it Heh, at least now you have a group to be wrong in collective with.
XD
It's better than being alone I guess.
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whiny nestea and DRG, all they do is QQ!! Oops, sorry, thought we were talking about idra.
JK
Seriously though, we have to respect these ideas on balance now, they're coming from the best players in the game. I personally think it's contemporary map design that's the problem more than race (I just don't believe in these crazy choked up maps, I'm not even sure I like the 1-forcefield ramp design to be honest, it gets used offensively way more than defensively in the pvz matchup)
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On February 03 2012 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 01:40 ilbh wrote:On February 03 2012 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 03 2012 00:49 ilbh wrote:On February 02 2012 23:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 02 2012 23:51 Geo.Rion wrote:On February 02 2012 23:47 quickclickz wrote:http://imgur.com/a/hQHYSThe shorter the bars, the more dominating you are right? /thread yes, u linking to a random stat clearly makes this thread about Korean pros fighting over twitter obsolete, thanks man, you are a hero For what it's worth, it's pretty much all the stats. But it's still fun to hear even the top level pros whine when there's nothing to whine about ^^ you missed the point... you can't just say the game is balanced based on ladder stats. try to use your brain, this is so obvious and basic... The stats are based on tournaments. Read as: top tier progamers, GM players, and high masters players. And not generic ladder games from people who don't know how to play. I'm using my brain and reading skills. Thanks  Bet you're embarrassed. lol of course not, you should be even more embarassed now that you compared top GM and high masters stats with HIGH LEVEL PRO KOREANS. but yeah... it was fun reading your posts You seriously need to learn how to read and click links, dude. The site has international tournament stats and Korean-only tournament stats. And plenty of pro-gamers are also top master/ GM on ladder, so there's overlap. I've never seen so much fail in one person's set of posts. The link was even provided for you. Click it -.-' Sigh.
ok, I will explain you how wrong you are. you can't use STATS to judge game balance at KOREAN PRO HIGH LEVEL.
firstly, you are mixing masters and grand masters within tournaments results, that doesn't say shit. tournaments have terrible map pools and the mayority of their players are not even CODE A players.
secondly, even if those tournaments had only TOP CODE S players like the ones who are complaining about balance, sometimes they just don't play at their best because they have CODE S games to be played and they want to hide strategies, builds, etc. or even they are not trying to get mentally tired.
so, in the end you really can't, by any means, use any kind of stats to judge the balance at the really high level CODE S game.
stop acting like if you know more than the HIGH LEVEL korean pros who are complaining about balance.
I'm now saying the game is or is not balance because of one or 2 top players, I'm just saying how wrong you are by using those stats. we can't even have an opinion about the subject cause we have never been at the really high level of play.
EDIT:
also another important thing about STATS is that they don't consider how the game was played. sometimes it was a build order win, a win due to mistake from opponents, etc. some stuff that you really can't use to judge balance.
only people playing at really high level at daily basis can see what is or is not too strong, what build counters what build, etc.
btw, you post too much... more than 10k in less than 2 years lol
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MC getting the SC2 banter train warmed up! :L Classic stuff right here!
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On February 03 2012 01:48 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 01:43 Alderan wrote:
So when idrA says it, he's whining about balance.
When DRG and Nestea say it, suddenly it is fact.
/sigh funny how that works isnt it
It's because you're more outspoken bud and the fact you tap out too easily.
Real deal.
Why do some of you care so much about what these players vent out on Twitter?
It's baffling. If they want to be bitter about a loss so be it.
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On February 03 2012 02:03 ilbh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 03 2012 01:40 ilbh wrote:On February 03 2012 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 03 2012 00:49 ilbh wrote:On February 02 2012 23:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 02 2012 23:51 Geo.Rion wrote:On February 02 2012 23:47 quickclickz wrote:http://imgur.com/a/hQHYSThe shorter the bars, the more dominating you are right? /thread yes, u linking to a random stat clearly makes this thread about Korean pros fighting over twitter obsolete, thanks man, you are a hero For what it's worth, it's pretty much all the stats. But it's still fun to hear even the top level pros whine when there's nothing to whine about ^^ you missed the point... you can't just say the game is balanced based on ladder stats. try to use your brain, this is so obvious and basic... The stats are based on tournaments. Read as: top tier progamers, GM players, and high masters players. And not generic ladder games from people who don't know how to play. I'm using my brain and reading skills. Thanks Bet you're embarrassed. lol of course not, you should be even more embarassed now that you compared top GM and high masters stats with HIGH LEVEL PRO KOREANS. but yeah... it was fun reading your posts You seriously need to learn how to read and click links, dude. The site has international tournament stats and Korean-only tournament stats. And plenty of pro-gamers are also top master/ GM on ladder, so there's overlap. I've never seen so much fail in one person's set of posts. The link was even provided for you. Click it -.-' Sigh. ok, I will explain you how wrong you are. you can't use STATS to judge game balance at KOREAN PRO HIGH LEVEL. firstly, you are mixing masters and grand masters within tournaments results, that doesn't say shit. tournaments have terrible map pools and the mayority of their players are not even CODE A players. secondly, even if those tournaments had only TOP CODE S players like the ones who are complaining about balance, sometimes they just don't play at their best because they have CODE S games to be played and they want to hide strategies, builds, etc. or even they are not trying to get mentally tired. so, in the end you really can't, by any means, use any kind of stats to judge the balance at the really high level CODE S game. stop acting like if you know more than the HIGH LEVEL korean pros who are complaining about balance. I'm now saying the game is or is not balance because of one or 2 top players, I'm just saying how wrong you are by using those stats. we can't even have an opinion about the subject cause we have never been at the really high level of play. EDIT: also another important thing about STATS is that they don't consider how the game was played. sometimes it was a build order win, a win due to mistake from opponents, etc. some stuff that you really can't use to judge balance. only people playing at really high level at daily basis can see what is or is not too strong, what build counters what build, etc. btw, you post too much... more than 10k in less than 2 years lol
The game is changing every month new strats are coming out... EVERY MONTH. Everyone is gonna complain every month...
You're argument about high level players complaining about matchups is silly because THEY ALWAYS COMPLAIN. Watch every video interview, no one is gonna say their race is OP.
I don't know a time when nestea hasn't complained about protoss, even when he was winning GSL's.
About the stats: someone asked for them... I was not using them... they were requested.
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On February 03 2012 01:40 eYeball wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 01:32 gh0un wrote:On February 03 2012 00:45 eYeball wrote:
Didnt David Kim said in his blog that zerg had highest winrates or most prize money earned or something like that?
It's sad to see progamers qq this much Why is it sad? If football was played with two differently sized goals, one big and one small, dont you think the pro football players would complain about it? Obviously football doesnt feature different races, but you get the point. Fact is, for these sc2 pro players, this is their career, and if their career is based on a flawed game that isnt balanced well enough, and they happened to choose the weaker race, then not complaining would be the equivalent to the smaller sized goal team not complaining about their goal´s size, which is not sad but simply RETARDED. Sc2 is still a very young game and no one can claim that the game is balanced or imbalanced. There is a higher chance it is utterly imbalanced, but since players arent perfect, and the game will never be figured out completely (not even in 10 years), the utter imbalance balances itself out within the metagame. The better player that uses the better strategy wins, regardless of race... however.... There always is a time when a particular metagame instance is utterly imbalanced and there actually isnt any way of counterbalancing it with another imbalance, like the marine scv rush on small maps like steps of war. A counter was never figured out, rather the map was taken out of all tournaments. Given enough time we might have seen someone figure something out, chance is high though that it might have not had any counter measure. There is a good chance that something will be figured out, something that can be abused to counteract any given imbalance towards their race, but there also is a high probability that there actually is no counterbalance for that particular scenario. There is value in complaining about something, even if there only is a small chance that it might indeed be an issue. Sc2 is a game of imbalances that counterbalance each other, claiming that it is balanced is just naive. Calling progamers that complain about their race sad is just as naive. They don't have to cry on twitter, better of giving constructive feedback to Blizzard.
It seemed like a somewhat truthful joke. Both parties giving some rooted feelings but expressing it in a friendly, joking way. Kinda like how you might dog a friend for being awkward with a particular girl or something. There is some truth to what you say but it all in good fun.
I'm sure if they have actual issues they will go to Blizzard, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with talking about it on Twitter.
Also, Twitter allows for attention. I wouldn't be surprised if they expected this kind of attention from the fans. Wouldn't you want to stir up discussion and debate if you were in their positions?
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Ha lately I've been more scared of immortals than colossi, 5-6 of them with good forcefields melt stuff soooo fast.
Edit : Part of their strenght must also be that they cost less and come faster than colossi, thus available at earlier timings.
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perhaps zerg QQ is a genetic thing? 90% of balance whine I see is from zerg - usually about protoss and quite a bit about terran too.
Then you have people like idra moaning about protoss when he still tries to go roach hydra vs P like he has been since beta.
I will admit though - it's a great form of entertainment even if it does get tiresome after a while.
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On February 03 2012 02:20 Utinni wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 02:03 ilbh wrote:On February 03 2012 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 03 2012 01:40 ilbh wrote:On February 03 2012 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 03 2012 00:49 ilbh wrote:On February 02 2012 23:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 02 2012 23:51 Geo.Rion wrote:On February 02 2012 23:47 quickclickz wrote:http://imgur.com/a/hQHYSThe shorter the bars, the more dominating you are right? /thread yes, u linking to a random stat clearly makes this thread about Korean pros fighting over twitter obsolete, thanks man, you are a hero For what it's worth, it's pretty much all the stats. But it's still fun to hear even the top level pros whine when there's nothing to whine about ^^ you missed the point... you can't just say the game is balanced based on ladder stats. try to use your brain, this is so obvious and basic... The stats are based on tournaments. Read as: top tier progamers, GM players, and high masters players. And not generic ladder games from people who don't know how to play. I'm using my brain and reading skills. Thanks Bet you're embarrassed. lol of course not, you should be even more embarassed now that you compared top GM and high masters stats with HIGH LEVEL PRO KOREANS. but yeah... it was fun reading your posts You seriously need to learn how to read and click links, dude. The site has international tournament stats and Korean-only tournament stats. And plenty of pro-gamers are also top master/ GM on ladder, so there's overlap. I've never seen so much fail in one person's set of posts. The link was even provided for you. Click it -.-' Sigh. ok, I will explain you how wrong you are. you can't use STATS to judge game balance at KOREAN PRO HIGH LEVEL. firstly, you are mixing masters and grand masters within tournaments results, that doesn't say shit. tournaments have terrible map pools and the mayority of their players are not even CODE A players. secondly, even if those tournaments had only TOP CODE S players like the ones who are complaining about balance, sometimes they just don't play at their best because they have CODE S games to be played and they want to hide strategies, builds, etc. or even they are not trying to get mentally tired. so, in the end you really can't, by any means, use any kind of stats to judge the balance at the really high level CODE S game. stop acting like if you know more than the HIGH LEVEL korean pros who are complaining about balance. I'm now saying the game is or is not balance because of one or 2 top players, I'm just saying how wrong you are by using those stats. we can't even have an opinion about the subject cause we have never been at the really high level of play. EDIT: also another important thing about STATS is that they don't consider how the game was played. sometimes it was a build order win, a win due to mistake from opponents, etc. some stuff that you really can't use to judge balance. only people playing at really high level at daily basis can see what is or is not too strong, what build counters what build, etc. btw, you post too much... more than 10k in less than 2 years lol The game is changing every month new strats are coming out... EVERY MONTH. Everyone is gonna complain every month... You're argument about high level players complaining about matchups is silly because THEY ALWAYS COMPLAIN. Watch every video interview, no one is gonna say their race is OP. I don't know a time when nestea hasn't complained about protoss, even when he was winning GSL's. About the stats: someone asked for them... I was not using them... they were requested.
yes, they are always complaing, thanks god they do that, but who you are to judge if they are wrong or not?
btw, you just gave one more reason to never use stats, cause the meta-game is always changing, there are always new strategies, etc.
my point is: no one here can say if the game is or is not balanced and we can't use stats to justify it. that's all.
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Haha I know just how nestea feels about Zerg!
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I don't really care who is talking balance when their on twitter, its almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion on twitter because of the character limits. Sure it can be cool to hear what they say, but I wouldn't take any of it to heart.
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pinball777
United States134 Posts
On February 03 2012 02:01 darkscream wrote:
I'm not even sure I like the 1-forcefield ramp design to be honest, it gets used offensively way more than defensively in the pvz matchup)
The problem here is then in pvp it becomes much harder to defend yourself and that's why these ramps won't go away so quickly. It's hard to balance one match up because it may affect another. Had terran never 1-1-1 then immortal range would never increase.
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On February 03 2012 02:25 ilbh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 02:20 Utinni wrote:On February 03 2012 02:03 ilbh wrote:On February 03 2012 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 03 2012 01:40 ilbh wrote:On February 03 2012 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 03 2012 00:49 ilbh wrote:On February 02 2012 23:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 02 2012 23:51 Geo.Rion wrote:On February 02 2012 23:47 quickclickz wrote:http://imgur.com/a/hQHYSThe shorter the bars, the more dominating you are right? /thread yes, u linking to a random stat clearly makes this thread about Korean pros fighting over twitter obsolete, thanks man, you are a hero For what it's worth, it's pretty much all the stats. But it's still fun to hear even the top level pros whine when there's nothing to whine about ^^ you missed the point... you can't just say the game is balanced based on ladder stats. try to use your brain, this is so obvious and basic... The stats are based on tournaments. Read as: top tier progamers, GM players, and high masters players. And not generic ladder games from people who don't know how to play. I'm using my brain and reading skills. Thanks Bet you're embarrassed. lol of course not, you should be even more embarassed now that you compared top GM and high masters stats with HIGH LEVEL PRO KOREANS. but yeah... it was fun reading your posts You seriously need to learn how to read and click links, dude. The site has international tournament stats and Korean-only tournament stats. And plenty of pro-gamers are also top master/ GM on ladder, so there's overlap. I've never seen so much fail in one person's set of posts. The link was even provided for you. Click it -.-' Sigh. ok, I will explain you how wrong you are. you can't use STATS to judge game balance at KOREAN PRO HIGH LEVEL. firstly, you are mixing masters and grand masters within tournaments results, that doesn't say shit. tournaments have terrible map pools and the mayority of their players are not even CODE A players. secondly, even if those tournaments had only TOP CODE S players like the ones who are complaining about balance, sometimes they just don't play at their best because they have CODE S games to be played and they want to hide strategies, builds, etc. or even they are not trying to get mentally tired. so, in the end you really can't, by any means, use any kind of stats to judge the balance at the really high level CODE S game. stop acting like if you know more than the HIGH LEVEL korean pros who are complaining about balance. I'm now saying the game is or is not balance because of one or 2 top players, I'm just saying how wrong you are by using those stats. we can't even have an opinion about the subject cause we have never been at the really high level of play. EDIT: also another important thing about STATS is that they don't consider how the game was played. sometimes it was a build order win, a win due to mistake from opponents, etc. some stuff that you really can't use to judge balance. only people playing at really high level at daily basis can see what is or is not too strong, what build counters what build, etc. btw, you post too much... more than 10k in less than 2 years lol The game is changing every month new strats are coming out... EVERY MONTH. Everyone is gonna complain every month... You're argument about high level players complaining about matchups is silly because THEY ALWAYS COMPLAIN. Watch every video interview, no one is gonna say their race is OP. I don't know a time when nestea hasn't complained about protoss, even when he was winning GSL's. About the stats: someone asked for them... I was not using them... they were requested. yes, they are always complaing, thanks god they do that, but who you are to judge if they are wrong or not? btw, you just gave one more reason to never use stats, cause the meta-game is always changing, there are always new strategies, etc. my point is: no one here can say if the game is or is not balanced and we can't use stats to justify it. that's all.
I never said to use the stats as confirmation, someone asked for them. (you are crazy if you are saying that I told you to go by the stats) as I said before someone asked for them so I gave them the link.
I, unlike you, trust that if they have any complaints with balance, they DO have contacts with blizzard and are hopefully already talking to them about it. I obviously know they have qualms with the game since like I stated before they always complain about the balance (zvp matchup).
Just like the entire world, I play the game as it is given to me. And just like everyone else we have to work with what we got.
EVERYONE HAS DIFFERENT PERCEPTIONS. The TLPD is just one of them... ease up sir. I am not saying live and die by the TLPD winrates, I am saying, accept that there are many different perceptions of this wonderful game ( like you said who are we to say what is or isn't balanced).
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thanks for the translation, but im pretty sure we dont need another balance discussion thread, unless you all can manage to discuss the tweets without talking about balance
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On February 03 2012 02:40 Utinni wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 02:25 ilbh wrote:On February 03 2012 02:20 Utinni wrote:On February 03 2012 02:03 ilbh wrote:On February 03 2012 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 03 2012 01:40 ilbh wrote:On February 03 2012 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 03 2012 00:49 ilbh wrote:On February 02 2012 23:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 02 2012 23:51 Geo.Rion wrote:
[quote]
yes, u linking to a random stat clearly makes this thread about Korean pros fighting over twitter obsolete, thanks man, you are a hero For what it's worth, it's pretty much all the stats. But it's still fun to hear even the top level pros whine when there's nothing to whine about ^^ you missed the point... you can't just say the game is balanced based on ladder stats. try to use your brain, this is so obvious and basic... The stats are based on tournaments. Read as: top tier progamers, GM players, and high masters players. And not generic ladder games from people who don't know how to play. I'm using my brain and reading skills. Thanks Bet you're embarrassed. lol of course not, you should be even more embarassed now that you compared top GM and high masters stats with HIGH LEVEL PRO KOREANS. but yeah... it was fun reading your posts You seriously need to learn how to read and click links, dude. The site has international tournament stats and Korean-only tournament stats. And plenty of pro-gamers are also top master/ GM on ladder, so there's overlap. I've never seen so much fail in one person's set of posts. The link was even provided for you. Click it -.-' Sigh. ok, I will explain you how wrong you are. you can't use STATS to judge game balance at KOREAN PRO HIGH LEVEL. firstly, you are mixing masters and grand masters within tournaments results, that doesn't say shit. tournaments have terrible map pools and the mayority of their players are not even CODE A players. secondly, even if those tournaments had only TOP CODE S players like the ones who are complaining about balance, sometimes they just don't play at their best because they have CODE S games to be played and they want to hide strategies, builds, etc. or even they are not trying to get mentally tired. so, in the end you really can't, by any means, use any kind of stats to judge the balance at the really high level CODE S game. stop acting like if you know more than the HIGH LEVEL korean pros who are complaining about balance. I'm now saying the game is or is not balance because of one or 2 top players, I'm just saying how wrong you are by using those stats. we can't even have an opinion about the subject cause we have never been at the really high level of play. EDIT: also another important thing about STATS is that they don't consider how the game was played. sometimes it was a build order win, a win due to mistake from opponents, etc. some stuff that you really can't use to judge balance. only people playing at really high level at daily basis can see what is or is not too strong, what build counters what build, etc. btw, you post too much... more than 10k in less than 2 years lol The game is changing every month new strats are coming out... EVERY MONTH. Everyone is gonna complain every month... You're argument about high level players complaining about matchups is silly because THEY ALWAYS COMPLAIN. Watch every video interview, no one is gonna say their race is OP. I don't know a time when nestea hasn't complained about protoss, even when he was winning GSL's. About the stats: someone asked for them... I was not using them... they were requested. yes, they are always complaing, thanks god they do that, but who you are to judge if they are wrong or not? btw, you just gave one more reason to never use stats, cause the meta-game is always changing, there are always new strategies, etc. my point is: no one here can say if the game is or is not balanced and we can't use stats to justify it. that's all. I never said to use the stats as confirmation, someone asked for them. (you are crazy if you are saying that I told you to go by the stats) as I said before someone asked for them so I gave them the link. I, unlike you, trust that if they have any complaints with balance, they DO have contacts with blizzard and are hopefully already talking to them about it. I obviously know they have qualms with the game since like I stated before they always complain about the balance (zvp matchup). Just like the entire world, I play the game as it is given to me. And just like everyone else we have to work with what we got. EVERYONE HAS DIFFERENT PERCEPTIONS. The TLPD is just one of them... ease up sir. I am not saying live and die by the TLPD winrates, I am saying, accept that there are many different perceptions of this wonderful game ( like you said who are we to say what is or isn't balanced).
lol I don't know if you realize that I wasn't replaying to you, it was for that guy how knows more than nestea and DRG.
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Wow, this was actually a very interesting, amusing, and funny read! I really wish that there were more interchanges between these top Koreans. If there are a lot of these, I'd like the be able to read, and understand them!
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EPT
