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On January 31 2012 18:58 Perseverance wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 18:52 nimdil wrote:On January 31 2012 18:32 mTw|NarutO wrote:
I'm not sure if not inviting Stephano for events would be good for tournaments. He's one of the very best and he pulls a lot of interest/viewers. Yes there are other good players, but as said, he's one of the very best at the moment. True. But don't care. How good he is should not be a factor in this kind of situations. Unless we want to make sc2 as legitimate competition show as is Wrestling. Just take a look into the traditional sports (NFL) world for your answer to this dilemma. Terrell Owens, one of the all time best wide receivers in the history of the sport just got passed up by every single NFL team due to his bad attitude/poor sportsmanship. It didn't matter how many fans he has (I'm personally a huge fan and he had a large enough fanbase to support a T.V. show all about him) or what kind of numbers/results he could put up in a season, nobody wanted him because of how he acted. Stephano is no different from T.O. His actions repeatedly seem to indicate that he has no regard for anyone but himself. He should learn the hard way that this isn't how professional sports work.
Yes, but a NFL team can make that decision, they don't need money NOR do they need the player. Its different from eSports tournaments as its a 1v1 competetion. eSports needs players like Stephano, just because he is very good and has a huge fanbase. As said the more viewers, the more money generated, the more viewers you can proof to your sponsors, the more money they will put into you.
The more money you can give out to players, the better the players you can get / attract..
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On January 31 2012 18:58 Perseverance wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 18:52 nimdil wrote:On January 31 2012 18:32 mTw|NarutO wrote:
I'm not sure if not inviting Stephano for events would be good for tournaments. He's one of the very best and he pulls a lot of interest/viewers. Yes there are other good players, but as said, he's one of the very best at the moment. True. But don't care. How good he is should not be a factor in this kind of situations. Unless we want to make sc2 as legitimate competition show as is Wrestling. Just take a look into the traditional sports (NFL) world for your answer to this dilemma. Terrell Owens, one of the all time best wide receivers in the history of the sport just got passed up by every single NFL team due to his bad attitude/poor sportsmanship. It didn't matter how many fans he has (I'm personally a huge fan and he had a large enough fanbase to support a T.V. show all about him) or what kind of numbers/results he could put up in a season, nobody wanted him because of how he acted. Stephano is no different from T.O. His actions repeatedly seem to indicate that he has no regard for anyone but himself. He should learn the hard way that this isn't how professional sports work.
Comparing someone that can't behave in a team sport to Stephano isn't really worthwhile.
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On January 31 2012 18:58 Perseverance wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 18:52 nimdil wrote:On January 31 2012 18:32 mTw|NarutO wrote:
I'm not sure if not inviting Stephano for events would be good for tournaments. He's one of the very best and he pulls a lot of interest/viewers. Yes there are other good players, but as said, he's one of the very best at the moment. True. But don't care. How good he is should not be a factor in this kind of situations. Unless we want to make sc2 as legitimate competition show as is Wrestling. Just take a look into the traditional sports (NFL) world for your answer to this dilemma. Terrell Owens, one of the all time best wide receivers in the history of the sport just got passed up by every single NFL team due to his bad attitude/poor sportsmanship. It didn't matter how many fans he has (I'm personally a huge fan and he had a large enough fanbase to support a T.V. show all about him) or what kind of numbers/results he could put up in a season, nobody wanted him because of how he acted. Stephano is no different from T.O. His actions repeatedly seem to indicate that he has no regard for anyone but himself. He should learn the hard way that this isn't how professional sports work.
Personally, I believe that there really isn't anyone as mature as the NFL managers (or whatever their title maybe), in the world of esports at the moment as I'm sure that if some unknown team is able to pick up a player like Stephano, they'll do it.
As for the whole situation, tbh I'm surprised Kas was able to stay up until the end!
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On January 31 2012 18:52 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 18:32 mTw|NarutO wrote:
I'm not sure if not inviting Stephano for events would be good for tournaments. He's one of the very best and he pulls a lot of interest/viewers. Yes there are other good players, but as said, he's one of the very best at the moment. True. But don't care. How good he is should not be a factor in this kind of situations. Unless we want to make sc2 as legitimate competition show as is Wrestling.
If you want to make SC2 a legitimate competition, you invite legitimate players (based on skill), or just have qualifiers. How good he is should be the ONLY factor if you don't want a Wrestling kind of show.
It's up to tournaments to make sure everything goes fine from the viewer / sponsor point of view. This is not something players should have to concern themselves with. In a legitimate competition players are competitors and nothing else. They play (or don't play) based on their condition, and if they feel it is necessary for them to forfeit, then they must be allowed to do so without being stripped of the prize money they legitimately won.
SC2 is definitely a kind of competition where forfeits should be allowed because there are many cases where a player might feel it is necessary. Tournament organizers should figure out how to deal with it instead of putting the burden of carrying their tournament on the players.
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On January 31 2012 18:53 loginn wrote:
The whole thread should be about one thing anyway : Is the game a competition or an entertainment for the watchers ?
Stephano (and myself aswell) sees it a as a competition : he has every right to forfeit any game he feel he cannot compete in.
The community then bitches because they want their entertainement therefore "Stephano is a douche"
Stephano is not your monkey. He's not here to amuse you. He's here to play his best and if can't he shouldn't play
Without the entertainment aspect there would be no competition. I'm not saying that makes the players our "monkeys" but they sure as hell have a responsibility seeing how "we" are the ones enabling him to make a living out of the game. Stephano - imo - has just proven once again that hes one of the least professional in that regard on the scene at the moment which is a shame - as his matches are usually amazing.
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On January 31 2012 18:32 mTw|NarutO wrote:
I'm not sure if not inviting Stephano for events would be good for tournaments. He's one of the very best and he pulls a lot of interest/viewers. Yes there are other good players, but as said, he's one of the very best at the moment.
Its his right as player to forfeit whenever he thinks he's not capable of playing anymore and this right should be absolute with or without giving a reason. I agree how he handled the situation was not very professional, yet it was his decision to make and since he was too tired to play even immediately, he chose to forfeit.
ONOG made a decision and did put him in the 4th place which I think was incorrect as well, because he won his semifinal and thus is at least #2. If you disqualify him for a forfeit he shouldn't be 4th... nor 2nd, but the way it is it just doesn't make sense.
I hate to say it, but thats why player contracts between teams/players exist and thats why players should sign a contract for invite tournaments and there should be strict rules for everything so these kind of situations either don't occur or can be dealt with easily. Thats unfortunately just how it works..
I agree with parts 1, 2 and 4. Stephano, like IdrA and Naniwa is a very good and popular player. Tournaments only hurt themselves when they don't invite them. Therefore, there needs to be propper rules in place for such situations. Also, a player unable to play.. can't play.
However, I agree with how ONOG handled the situation. As a business, they were accountable to deliver a product to their customers (both viewers and investors). If they would have simply given kas the win and only played the bronze match it would have been an inferior product. I do see your point about not giving Stephano any placement but I think 4th is still a decent compromise as they're rewarding him for some of his previous work.
Ultimately, if players continue this behavior, tournaments are going to need fully spelt out rules regarding everything from dress code and player etiquite to how many times they can use the restroom...
Players might also be best off having a governing organization =/
As someone who has worked as a union steward at a previous job, it's a sad reality that people screw other people over (sometimes intentionally, sometimes not) and the best way to prevent it is by having contracts and barganing agreements.
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On January 31 2012 19:03 Caloooomi wrote:
As for the whole situation, tbh I'm surprised Kas was able to stay up until the end!
he often plays through nights.
some players said that when u play at night on eu u will face at least 3 times kas =)
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On January 31 2012 18:58 Perseverance wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 18:52 nimdil wrote:On January 31 2012 18:32 mTw|NarutO wrote:
I'm not sure if not inviting Stephano for events would be good for tournaments. He's one of the very best and he pulls a lot of interest/viewers. Yes there are other good players, but as said, he's one of the very best at the moment. True. But don't care. How good he is should not be a factor in this kind of situations. Unless we want to make sc2 as legitimate competition show as is Wrestling. Just take a look into the traditional sports (NFL) world for your answer to this dilemma. Terrell Owens, one of the all time best wide receivers in the history of the sport just got passed up by every single NFL team due to his bad attitude/poor sportsmanship. It didn't matter how many fans he has (I'm personally a huge fan and he had a large enough fanbase to support a T.V. show all about him) or what kind of numbers/results he could put up in a season, nobody wanted him because of how he acted. Stephano is no different from T.O. His actions repeatedly seem to indicate that he has no regard for anyone but himself. He should learn the hard way that this isn't how professional sports work.
You are delusional if you think thats matter in sc2 community, we have few bad boys who got attention from bad sportmanship and having skill, nowadays its unclear whats the main point of their popularity, probably a mixture of both. Stephano is painted as arrogant one, which apparantly sets him below even bad sportmanship (not gging, saying "fuck you" to other player, leaving games, probe rushing as examples of few). ESPORTS indeed.
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On January 31 2012 19:03 Calliopee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 18:53 loginn wrote:
The whole thread should be about one thing anyway : Is the game a competition or an entertainment for the watchers ?
Stephano (and myself aswell) sees it a as a competition : he has every right to forfeit any game he feel he cannot compete in.
The community then bitches because they want their entertainement therefore "Stephano is a douche"
Stephano is not your monkey. He's not here to amuse you. He's here to play his best and if can't he shouldn't play Without the entertainment aspect there would be no competition. I'm not saying that makes the players our "monkeys" but they sure as hell have a responsibility seeing how "we" are the ones enabling him to make a living out of the game. Stephano - imo - has just proven once again that hes one of the least professional in that regard on the scene at the moment which is a shame - as his matches are usually amazing.
Stephano is one pro player at a computer desk somewhere in the midnight.
Over the ocean there are 3 barcrafts (businesses) with customers and people having fun.
On stream there are lots of viewers from all around the world.
Managers beg for sponsors and get prize money.
Out of pure egoism and lack of thinking in perspective Stephano call it a night and all the other people are left hanging. All the efforts of many people are thrown away because the player was tired.
If this will be allowed in the future ESPORTs will hit a wall. No sponsor will invest if players are out of their control so they can't actually estimate the outcome of the event. I wouldn't invest in a volatile event.
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Why do people keep defending players who drop out? Oh its his decision... No its not. Hes paid to play. Hes paid to represent his team. Hes paid to entertain. You dont just get to be like meh I dont feel like playing this. Its his JOB. Not a hobby not how he kills time on the weekend. Its bigger than him. If he doesn't like that then he should pick a new job.
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On January 31 2012 19:03 Calliopee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 18:53 loginn wrote:
The whole thread should be about one thing anyway : Is the game a competition or an entertainment for the watchers ?
Stephano (and myself aswell) sees it a as a competition : he has every right to forfeit any game he feel he cannot compete in.
The community then bitches because they want their entertainement therefore "Stephano is a douche"
Stephano is not your monkey. He's not here to amuse you. He's here to play his best and if can't he shouldn't play Without the entertainment aspect there would be no competition. I'm not saying that makes the players our "monkeys" but they sure as hell have a responsibility seeing how "we" are the ones enabling him to make a living out of the game. Stephano - imo - has just proven once again that hes one of the least professional in that regard on the scene at the moment which is a shame - as his matches are usually amazing.
Players tend to forget they are entertainers. They get their money because people pay to be entertained by them. MC and Idra even though might not be top of the top still provide a lot of entertainment due to their personalities and that's why they always have a lot of people watching them.
Stephano can do whatever he wants for now, there's no rules or governing body forbidding him to (except maybe his team?). If he fails to entertain and let down his viewers his paycheck will go down. On the other hand this could bring some (negative) attention to him, and maybe even more viewers.
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On January 31 2012 19:09 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:03 Calliopee wrote:On January 31 2012 18:53 loginn wrote:
The whole thread should be about one thing anyway : Is the game a competition or an entertainment for the watchers ?
Stephano (and myself aswell) sees it a as a competition : he has every right to forfeit any game he feel he cannot compete in.
The community then bitches because they want their entertainement therefore "Stephano is a douche"
Stephano is not your monkey. He's not here to amuse you. He's here to play his best and if can't he shouldn't play Without the entertainment aspect there would be no competition. I'm not saying that makes the players our "monkeys" but they sure as hell have a responsibility seeing how "we" are the ones enabling him to make a living out of the game. Stephano - imo - has just proven once again that hes one of the least professional in that regard on the scene at the moment which is a shame - as his matches are usually amazing. Stephano is one pro player at a computer desk somewhere in the midnight. Over the ocean there are 3 barcrafts (businesses) with customers and people having fun. On stream there are lots of viewers from all around the world. Managers beg for sponsors and get prize money.
Out of pure egoism and lack of thinking in perspective Stephano call it a night and all the other people are left hanging. All the efforts of many people are thrown away because the player was tired. If this will be allowed in the future ESPORTs will hit a wall. No sponsor will invest if players are out of their control so they can't actually estimate the outcome of the event. I wouldn't invest in a volatile event.
Man people really get riled up by this stuff. Maybe you need to think this through as well.
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On January 31 2012 19:03 Calliopee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 18:53 loginn wrote:
The whole thread should be about one thing anyway : Is the game a competition or an entertainment for the watchers ?
Stephano (and myself aswell) sees it a as a competition : he has every right to forfeit any game he feel he cannot compete in.
The community then bitches because they want their entertainement therefore "Stephano is a douche"
Stephano is not your monkey. He's not here to amuse you. He's here to play his best and if can't he shouldn't play Without the entertainment aspect there would be no competition. I'm not saying that makes the players our "monkeys" but they sure as hell have a responsibility seeing how "we" are the ones enabling him to make a living out of the game. Stephano - imo - has just proven once again that hes one of the least professional in that regard on the scene at the moment which is a shame - as his matches are usually amazing.
Exactly. Besides, who wants to stay up late/skip out on spending time with their wife/GF/friends to watch a tournament with their 'favorite' (Stephano) player in it when you aren't even sure if he is going to just quit when he's in the finals because he is "sleepy"
Hell, who wants to watch a tournament with Stephano (or anyone else for that matter) in it when they can't be assured that someone will just decide to quit in the finals and effectively ruin/destroy any hype you had for the ending matches of the tournament.
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On January 31 2012 19:08 kinglemon wrote:
he often plays through nights.
some players said that when u play at night on eu u will face at least 3 times kas =)
Yeah i can confrim it :D If you are anywhere near GM level and play late at night your world will be destroyed ... and waiting a few minutes to queue up again doesnt even work.
Silly decision from stephano, just play the final and try to finish it early game. Looks more like an attention whore this way.
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Yeah imagine if football games sometimes only lasted 60mins because players were too tired to play. That would be funny.
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On January 31 2012 19:09 Detwiler wrote:
Why do people keep defending players who drop out? Oh its his decision... No its not. Hes paid to play. Hes paid to represent his team. Hes paid to entertain. You dont just get to be like meh I dont feel like playing this. Its his JOB. Not a hobby not how he kills time on the weekend. Its bigger than him. If he doesn't like that then he should pick a new job.
Yes he is paid to play. Yes its his job. Is it his decision? Absolutely. Should he forfeit if he feels like he cannot play? Absolutely.
He doesn't owe you NOR any other viewer NOR the tournament anything. He is a competitor and if he thinks what he did is what he could and that he cannot do more, its his right to forfeit. If you don't like his decision do not support him, but you certainly cannot tell him to fuck off, because he did only what was his absolute right.
The only one that he argueably owes anything is his team and if Millenium is fine with what he did, there is nothing you nor anyone could do about.
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On January 31 2012 19:09 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:03 Calliopee wrote:On January 31 2012 18:53 loginn wrote:
The whole thread should be about one thing anyway : Is the game a competition or an entertainment for the watchers ?
Stephano (and myself aswell) sees it a as a competition : he has every right to forfeit any game he feel he cannot compete in.
The community then bitches because they want their entertainement therefore "Stephano is a douche"
Stephano is not your monkey. He's not here to amuse you. He's here to play his best and if can't he shouldn't play Without the entertainment aspect there would be no competition. I'm not saying that makes the players our "monkeys" but they sure as hell have a responsibility seeing how "we" are the ones enabling him to make a living out of the game. Stephano - imo - has just proven once again that hes one of the least professional in that regard on the scene at the moment which is a shame - as his matches are usually amazing. Stephano is one pro player at a computer desk somewhere in the midnight. Over the ocean there are 3 barcrafts (businesses) with customers and people having fun. On stream there are lots of viewers from all around the world. Managers beg for sponsors and get prize money. Out of pure egoism and lack of thinking in perspective Stephano call it a night and all the other people are left hanging. All the efforts of many people are thrown away because the player was tired. If this will be allowed in the future ESPORTs will hit a wall. No sponsor will invest if players are out of their control so they can't actually estimate the outcome of the event. I wouldn't invest in a volatile event.
If they did invest in proper tournaments hour they could easily adress the most trivial cases such as this one, so there would be no need for players to use their heads for anything other than playing. Players are generally bad at this. And sponsors should know this if they dont know that already (drama every 3rd day).
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This discussion is absurd. Anyone can quit anything anytime they want. He didn't demand that his match be rescheduled, he is ok with taking a defloss. You people are mad at someone for choosing to lose?! This isn't NaNi vs NesTea either, this had something on the line, and he knew it, but still decided he wasn't able to play. How is there anything wrong with this?!
edit: I just don't understand at all how Stephano can be compared to IdrA or NaNi...
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On January 31 2012 19:09 Detwiler wrote:
Why do people keep defending players who drop out? Oh its his decision... No its not. Hes paid to play. Hes paid to represent his team. Hes paid to entertain.
Actually you have no idea what he is paid for at all. That is between him and his team. They can pay him to sit around and look funny if they want to.
Don't act as if he owes you anything.
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All players registering for multiple tournaments simultaneously. Stephano is more common
than others to go in the end, and generated this kind of problem (forfeit). Should we ban
players to register a number of tournaments at the same time? This is the real question. And I'm not sure
players to agree with the will of the fans, because they need to win in, and they are more likely to do so if they are in several tournaments.
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EPT
