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On January 31 2012 19:27 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:09 Detwiler wrote:
Why do people keep defending players who drop out? Oh its his decision... No its not. Hes paid to play. Hes paid to represent his team. Hes paid to entertain. Actually you have no idea what he is paid for at all. That is between him and his team. They can pay him to sit around and look funny if they want to. Don't act as if he owes you anything.
Yeah your right he doesn't owe me anything. Hes also owes his team nothing. His sponsors he owes them jack. Oh and the tournament he definitely owes them nothing.
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On January 31 2012 19:33 Detwiler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:27 Talin wrote:On January 31 2012 19:09 Detwiler wrote:
Why do people keep defending players who drop out? Oh its his decision... No its not. Hes paid to play. Hes paid to represent his team. Hes paid to entertain. Actually you have no idea what he is paid for at all. That is between him and his team. They can pay him to sit around and look funny if they want to. Don't act as if he owes you anything. Yeah your right he doesn't owe me anything. Hes also owes his team nothing. His sponsors he owes them jack. Oh and the tournament he definitely owes them nothing.
Again, you're neither involved with his team nor are you his sponsor. You have zero knowledge of the relationship and contractual agreements between them and Stephano, so don't speak on their behalf. They can do that for themselves if they feel it is necessary, and they will deal with this (or not deal with it) themselves however they see fit.
You making angry posts doesn't mean anything nor does it affect anything.
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Where's the Tyler thread, TL?
I mean. I don't think that it was the right decision from Stephano to forfeit, I'd personally just have drug'd myself on coffee and played, but seriously. Tyler only plays 1 bo3 and quits, yet he gets no hate compared to Stephano.
Double standard ftw, I guess ^_^
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I think it was a horribly arrogant thing of Stephano to do. First time tourney and he just snubs them. He's lucky that he was given 4th place, if I were the organizers I would've completely disqualified him from any prize winnings. Unfair to the admins, fans and to all the players. No apology whatsoever from him as well. I was a Stephano fan, and still am but this is certainly a black mark on his reputation.
What Tyler did was completely different. Quitting in the group stages at least gives the organizers some time and resources to figure something out. Quitting in the finals completely handcuffs everyone.
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On January 31 2012 19:37 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:33 Detwiler wrote:On January 31 2012 19:27 Talin wrote:On January 31 2012 19:09 Detwiler wrote:
Why do people keep defending players who drop out? Oh its his decision... No its not. Hes paid to play. Hes paid to represent his team. Hes paid to entertain. Actually you have no idea what he is paid for at all. That is between him and his team. They can pay him to sit around and look funny if they want to. Don't act as if he owes you anything. Yeah your right he doesn't owe me anything. Hes also owes his team nothing. His sponsors he owes them jack. Oh and the tournament he definitely owes them nothing. Again, you're neither involved with his team nor are you his sponsor. Don't speak on their behalf. They can do that for themselves if they feel it is necessary, and they will deal with this (or not deal with it) themselves however they see fit. You making angry posts doesn't mean anything nor does it affect anything.
It's like this every time. The esports community seems to have real entitlement issues. They also seem to know what teams require from their players, how the contracts work, and exactly what sponsors require of their players.
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On January 31 2012 19:33 Detwiler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:27 Talin wrote:On January 31 2012 19:09 Detwiler wrote:
Why do people keep defending players who drop out? Oh its his decision... No its not. Hes paid to play. Hes paid to represent his team. Hes paid to entertain. Actually you have no idea what he is paid for at all. That is between him and his team. They can pay him to sit around and look funny if they want to. Don't act as if he owes you anything. Yeah your right he doesn't owe me anything. Hes also owes his team nothing. His sponsors he owes them jack. Oh and the tournament he definitely owes them nothing.
You fail at reading comprehension. He said he does not owe anything to viewers or tournament. He said if he owes someone something it is his team and transitionally his sponsors. That is it, it is between him and the team(sponsors). You can bitch and moan as we have freedom of speech, but he owes you nothing.
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On January 31 2012 19:37 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:33 Detwiler wrote:On January 31 2012 19:27 Talin wrote:On January 31 2012 19:09 Detwiler wrote:
Why do people keep defending players who drop out? Oh its his decision... No its not. Hes paid to play. Hes paid to represent his team. Hes paid to entertain. Actually you have no idea what he is paid for at all. That is between him and his team. They can pay him to sit around and look funny if they want to. Don't act as if he owes you anything. Yeah your right he doesn't owe me anything. Hes also owes his team nothing. His sponsors he owes them jack. Oh and the tournament he definitely owes them nothing. Again, you're neither involved with his team nor are you his sponsor. You have zero knowledge of the relationship and contractual agreements between them and Stephano, so don't speak on their behalf. They can do that for themselves if they feel it is necessary, and they will deal with this (or not deal with it) themselves however they see fit. You making angry posts doesn't mean anything nor does it affect anything.
Im not angry at all you are missing the point everyone involved in any sport or any form of entertainment seriously understands they owe EVERYTHING to their fans. With out the fans there is no sport. No sponsors. No anything . Without the fans they are just some guy with a normal job good at some obscure thing that nobody cares about.
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I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything?
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On January 31 2012 19:42 CryMeAReaper wrote:
Where's the Tyler thread, TL?
I mean. I don't think that it was the right decision from Stephano to forfeit, I'd personally just have drug'd myself on coffee and played, but seriously. Tyler only plays 1 bo3 and quits, yet he gets no hate compared to Stephano.
Double standard ftw, I guess ^_^
LOL @ comparing forfeiting after 1 game and robbing the fans of the most important game of the tournament.
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On January 31 2012 19:43 Detwiler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:37 Talin wrote:On January 31 2012 19:33 Detwiler wrote:On January 31 2012 19:27 Talin wrote:On January 31 2012 19:09 Detwiler wrote:
Why do people keep defending players who drop out? Oh its his decision... No its not. Hes paid to play. Hes paid to represent his team. Hes paid to entertain. Actually you have no idea what he is paid for at all. That is between him and his team. They can pay him to sit around and look funny if they want to. Don't act as if he owes you anything. Yeah your right he doesn't owe me anything. Hes also owes his team nothing. His sponsors he owes them jack. Oh and the tournament he definitely owes them nothing. Again, you're neither involved with his team nor are you his sponsor. You have zero knowledge of the relationship and contractual agreements between them and Stephano, so don't speak on their behalf. They can do that for themselves if they feel it is necessary, and they will deal with this (or not deal with it) themselves however they see fit. You making angry posts doesn't mean anything nor does it affect anything. Im not angry at all you are missing the point everyone involved in any sport or any form of entertainment seriously understands they owe EVERYTHING to their fans. With out the fans there is no sport. No sponsors. No anything . Without the fans they are just some guy with a normal job good at some obscure thing that nobody cares about.
No they don't. There's loads of sports that have little to no exposure or fans. Real athletes compete because they want to win, not because they want fans to pay their salary. I know that because i've been a pro swimmer and no one gives two shits about swimming as a public sport, yet there were thousands of people training hard to win junior/regular championships.
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On January 31 2012 19:48 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:43 Detwiler wrote:On January 31 2012 19:37 Talin wrote:On January 31 2012 19:33 Detwiler wrote:On January 31 2012 19:27 Talin wrote:On January 31 2012 19:09 Detwiler wrote:
Why do people keep defending players who drop out? Oh its his decision... No its not. Hes paid to play. Hes paid to represent his team. Hes paid to entertain. Actually you have no idea what he is paid for at all. That is between him and his team. They can pay him to sit around and look funny if they want to. Don't act as if he owes you anything. Yeah your right he doesn't owe me anything. Hes also owes his team nothing. His sponsors he owes them jack. Oh and the tournament he definitely owes them nothing. Again, you're neither involved with his team nor are you his sponsor. You have zero knowledge of the relationship and contractual agreements between them and Stephano, so don't speak on their behalf. They can do that for themselves if they feel it is necessary, and they will deal with this (or not deal with it) themselves however they see fit. You making angry posts doesn't mean anything nor does it affect anything. Im not angry at all you are missing the point everyone involved in any sport or any form of entertainment seriously understands they owe EVERYTHING to their fans. With out the fans there is no sport. No sponsors. No anything . Without the fans they are just some guy with a normal job good at some obscure thing that nobody cares about. No they don't. There's loads of sports that have little to no exposure or fans. Real athletes compete because they want to win, not because they want fans to pay their salary. I know that because i've been a pro swimmer and no one gives two shits about swimming as a public sport, yet there were thousands of people training hard to win junior/regular championships.
Since when doesn't people care about swimming, ever seen a tiny event called the olympics?
If no one cares about a sport, there are no sponsors. Which make you into a hobbyist, not a professional.
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On January 31 2012 19:48 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:42 CryMeAReaper wrote:
Where's the Tyler thread, TL?
I mean. I don't think that it was the right decision from Stephano to forfeit, I'd personally just have drug'd myself on coffee and played, but seriously. Tyler only plays 1 bo3 and quits, yet he gets no hate compared to Stephano.
Double standard ftw, I guess ^_^ LOL @ comparing forfeiting after 1 game and robbing the fans of the most important game of the tournament.
Tyler posted and said he was sick. I suppose you cant really play if you are puking your brains out or something. But nonetheless he apologized and said it was unprofessional behavior and it wouldnt happen again.
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On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote:
I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything?
He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports.
What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling.
If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament.
Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner.
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Further, Stephano is self admittedly the kind of person who only cares about the proceeds
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What people fails to understand in this situation is that each player out there is worth an "amount" of viewers.
Why people are so offended that Stephano give up in this tournament? Because he is worth 5k maybe 10k viewers with him only so it screwed up ONOG viewers forecast. That's why people doesn't care about Tyler forfeiting because he is not a top player anymore.
That was also the reason why ONOG invited him. Seriously, people only speak about Stephano so stupid to be in two tournaments at the same time, but ONOG, an american barcraft based tournament should have think about that beforehand : invite a EU = take a risk in the schedule and/or quality of matches. Why did they decided to invite Stephano? Because it was a garanteed base of viewership.
I'm not saying it's ONOG fault, I'm just saying that obvisouly everything is not black and white. Apart from that I followed both tournaments (SCAN and ONOG) and to be honest, ONOG still has some improvements to do. But it was a very nice initiative.
Finally a last word on Stephano (because I'm french and so biased toward him), maybe there was something else going on (family, serious health matters etc...) and he didn't want to speak about it?
I found very odd that he discards a potential $1500 prize even for sleep. Yesterday he lost an showmatch versus... Strelok.
Just my two cents here, I can be proved very wrong.
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On January 31 2012 19:50 Detwiler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:48 Tobberoth wrote:On January 31 2012 19:42 CryMeAReaper wrote:
Where's the Tyler thread, TL?
I mean. I don't think that it was the right decision from Stephano to forfeit, I'd personally just have drug'd myself on coffee and played, but seriously. Tyler only plays 1 bo3 and quits, yet he gets no hate compared to Stephano.
Double standard ftw, I guess ^_^ LOL @ comparing forfeiting after 1 game and robbing the fans of the most important game of the tournament. Tyler posted and said he was sick. I suppose you cant really play if you are puking your brains out or something. But nonetheless he apologized and said it was unprofessional behavior and it wouldnt happen again.
Ah he did? Sorry I must've missed that. In that case, It's okay of course.
And to the guy who said you couldn't compare, I think you could. I, for one, was very excited to see how Tylers progression was coming along and was very dissappointed.
But of course if he was sick, that's that. I hope he recovers quickly.
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On January 31 2012 19:49 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:48 karpo wrote:On January 31 2012 19:43 Detwiler wrote:On January 31 2012 19:37 Talin wrote:On January 31 2012 19:33 Detwiler wrote:On January 31 2012 19:27 Talin wrote:On January 31 2012 19:09 Detwiler wrote:
Why do people keep defending players who drop out? Oh its his decision... No its not. Hes paid to play. Hes paid to represent his team. Hes paid to entertain. Actually you have no idea what he is paid for at all. That is between him and his team. They can pay him to sit around and look funny if they want to. Don't act as if he owes you anything. Yeah your right he doesn't owe me anything. Hes also owes his team nothing. His sponsors he owes them jack. Oh and the tournament he definitely owes them nothing. Again, you're neither involved with his team nor are you his sponsor. You have zero knowledge of the relationship and contractual agreements between them and Stephano, so don't speak on their behalf. They can do that for themselves if they feel it is necessary, and they will deal with this (or not deal with it) themselves however they see fit. You making angry posts doesn't mean anything nor does it affect anything. Im not angry at all you are missing the point everyone involved in any sport or any form of entertainment seriously understands they owe EVERYTHING to their fans. With out the fans there is no sport. No sponsors. No anything . Without the fans they are just some guy with a normal job good at some obscure thing that nobody cares about. No they don't. There's loads of sports that have little to no exposure or fans. Real athletes compete because they want to win, not because they want fans to pay their salary. I know that because i've been a pro swimmer and no one gives two shits about swimming as a public sport, yet there were thousands of people training hard to win junior/regular championships. Since when doesn't people care about swimming, ever seen a tiny event called the olympics? If no one cares about a sport, there are no sponsors. Which make you into a hobbyist, not a professional.
There's money coming in from practitioners paying their yearly fee, some of that money pays part of the "professional" athletes" salary. Even if they were sponsored the discussion lies between them, not some nobody on TL that has no idea of what the team or sponsor contracts state.
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On January 31 2012 19:54 CryMeAReaper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:50 Detwiler wrote:On January 31 2012 19:48 Tobberoth wrote:On January 31 2012 19:42 CryMeAReaper wrote:
Where's the Tyler thread, TL?
I mean. I don't think that it was the right decision from Stephano to forfeit, I'd personally just have drug'd myself on coffee and played, but seriously. Tyler only plays 1 bo3 and quits, yet he gets no hate compared to Stephano.
Double standard ftw, I guess ^_^ LOL @ comparing forfeiting after 1 game and robbing the fans of the most important game of the tournament. Tyler posted and said he was sick. I suppose you cant really play if you are puking your brains out or something. But nonetheless he apologized and said it was unprofessional behavior and it wouldnt happen again. Ah he did? Sorry I must've missed that. In that case, It's okay of course. And to the guy who said you couldn't compare, I think you could. I, for one, was very excited to see how Tylers progression was coming along and was very dissappointed. But of course if he was sick, that's that. I hope he recovers quickly.
No, you can't compare. Quitting after just one game is BS, why sign up for a tournament if you're not going to play it, but all you're doing is showing up for one match and leave. Playing through a whole tournament, becoming an important player and go for the finals, THEN quit, ruins the tournament. It's completely different.
Tyler quitting isn't unprofessional just because you happened to want to see his progress. Stephano forfeiting in a finals is because everyone watching the tournament wants the see the two players who got to the finals fight for the top spot.
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In real sports a team or competitor can at any point forfeit his/their game.
In real life you can quit your job whenever you want - and you can even consciously search for two jobs at the same time only to turn one down in the last second.
The player was being honest and forfeits due to exhaustion.
The tournament readjusts so everyone still gets a final to watch.
and yet...SOMEHOW...People are still crying and waving their ridiculous "professionalism and hurting ESPORTS" banner.
Thank God I don't have to please you people for a living.
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On January 31 2012 19:57 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:54 CryMeAReaper wrote:On January 31 2012 19:50 Detwiler wrote:On January 31 2012 19:48 Tobberoth wrote:On January 31 2012 19:42 CryMeAReaper wrote:
Where's the Tyler thread, TL?
I mean. I don't think that it was the right decision from Stephano to forfeit, I'd personally just have drug'd myself on coffee and played, but seriously. Tyler only plays 1 bo3 and quits, yet he gets no hate compared to Stephano.
Double standard ftw, I guess ^_^ LOL @ comparing forfeiting after 1 game and robbing the fans of the most important game of the tournament. Tyler posted and said he was sick. I suppose you cant really play if you are puking your brains out or something. But nonetheless he apologized and said it was unprofessional behavior and it wouldnt happen again. Ah he did? Sorry I must've missed that. In that case, It's okay of course. And to the guy who said you couldn't compare, I think you could. I, for one, was very excited to see how Tylers progression was coming along and was very dissappointed. But of course if he was sick, that's that. I hope he recovers quickly. No, you can't compare. Quitting after just one game is BS, why sign up for a tournament if you're not going to play it, but all you're doing is showing up for one match and leave. Playing through a whole tournament, becoming an important player and go for the finals, THEN quit, ruins the tournament. It's completely different. Tyler quitting isn't unprofessional just because you happened to want to see his progress. Stephano forfeiting in a finals is because everyone watching the tournament wants the see the two players who got to the finals fight for the top spot.
I don't know man, quitting is quitting imo. I don't think we can just distinquish between the two so easily. Guess it depends on your perspective. (Of course I'm not saying Tyler was being unpro, just theoriticly)
Theres no difference between Stephano quitting a final, Tyler quitting after 1 bo3 in groups or Idra quitting after game 1 againt Nerchio. It's all unproffessional and shouldnt be taken lightly. That's how I see it.
OF COURSE there's degrees of it. Quitting a final in a ShoutCraft inv or something is ofc more unfortunate than quitting an online Go4sc2 or something, but the act themselves are the same, and I think that they should be viewed as so.
With viewed I mean sanctioned the same. Obv Stephano is gna get more hate for this than Polt quitting a Zotac, but they should be fined (if they are to be fined) the same.
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EPT
