EPTI have to warn you, one game was 1 hour and 20 minutes though =D
I would've been pissed if I lost that game...
We Must Fight For The Carrier - Page 77
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Walnut_SC
Canada33 Posts
I have to warn you, one game was 1 hour and 20 minutes though =D I would've been pissed if I lost that game... | ||
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shackes
Germany148 Posts
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Moobla
United States186 Posts
On August 21 2012 11:30 shackes wrote: I hope Blizzard is just setting up for the majestic return of the Carrier in LotV. I have no idea why so many people think that they might do this. If Blizzard doesn't think that the carrier has a place anymore in sc2, then they aren't going to add it again later. The expansions are about adding new content, they don't bring back old units. Tempests won't have a place in lategame PvZ, because all zerg has to do is chase them down with mass corrupters, then they can do their broodlord morphing. If a protoss makes too many tempests then a zerg could just put hydras in overlords and drop them under the tempests. Sky-toss won't work anymore. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403 Right here is just one guide showing how to go skytoss. I have my own build that starts off with a +1 air double stargate attack, which transitions nicely into a third base and carriers. The reason why Blizzard doesn't think carriers work is because (pro) players haven't experimented with them enough. WhiteRa is the only pro player that actually has used them a fair amount. | ||
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On August 21 2012 11:05 johnny123 wrote: ill go threw your answers 1 by 1 -spinecrawler /swarm host is not countered by carrier. Swarmhosts can hit AIR as well , that would be utterly retarded to try and fend of swarm hosts with carriers since its like running all your interceptors into a meat grinder. Not to mention the amount of tech you need to get out a few carriers.. I dont see them as the counter to swarmhost timing pushes at all compared to tempests. -carriers are hardly ever used in PvZ, only ultra ultra ultra late game , The tempest can be purchased very early on in the game and stay useful threwout. -Again, Carriers hardly ever see use in pvp, Thats if you can even live to late game. Saw last gsl ? the whole series ended in like 1/2 hr .. As i said, tempest will force air battles because protoss has nothing on the ground that can hit tempest if they are shooting from far off land, thereby diversifying the matchup. -For carriers against mech, yea that is the only use i can see for them, but your example is prettty bad because nobody ever goes mech in WOL against protoss . And If they do you certainly do not need carriers to defeat it. So far you have identified 1 use of the carrier in HOTS. My vote as i said in the previous post was to have both of them in, but if blizzard insists they have to cut. I hope the tempest stays in, it seems way more interesting to me. Samsies: - The fact that locusts can shoot upwards makes no difference whatsoever, and here's a long list of reasons why: for starters, swarm hosts start out with 0 locusts, and only start spawning them once burrowed, while carriers come with a compliment of 8 interceptors, can launch them all in 1.5 seconds anywhere, anytime, and can remake said interceptors only slightly slower than swarm hosts can make locusts. The instantaneous dps is simply so much higher it makes the swarm hosts look silly. Throw on top of that the fact that carriers nearly triple the range of locusts, are more mobile, and have the extended range feature, and swarm hosts won't stand a chance in any kind of late-game PvZ scenario. Maybe as a mid-game pressure, but late-game hard counter? Surely you jest. - Carriers are hardly ever used in PvZ my left ass cheek. Your fellow TL forumites would care to disagree. Just because you never use them doesn't mean no one does. - I have developed builds for getting to carrier/immortal compositions in mid-game PvP out of both 5 phoenix and speed prism harass openers. Skytoss builds currently work in PvP because of the raw dps of carriers, which, incidentally, is exactly why tempests won't force air battles: their extremely low dps can basically be ignored. Combined with the fact that most maps don't have that much dead space to be abused, and ground armies will simply walk past the tempests and sack your base. Now granted, Skytoss is not exactly ubiquitous in current PvP metagame, but then again, Skytoss is generally pretty overlooked in every match up because ground upgrades are just so much easier to get. Remember though that non-standard doesn't mean bad, and thinking so would make you an absolute fool. If you had said Ravens were going to be hugely popular even a month ago, you'd have been a laughing stock, but the most recent IEM has changed all that, hasn't it? - In this last point, you are indeed correct. Nobody ever goes mech in WoL TvP, and if they do, you certainly don't need carriers to beat it. That said, the fact that carriers are currently the ultimate answer to TvP mech will only become further true as HotS comes out, for all the same reasons that I previously stated above. So all that said, I don't really care what you think because you seem pretty convinced of yourself and you can keep on being convinced of yourself for all I care. I will say, however, that I use carriers in every single matchup with a high degree of success, and if Blizzard goes through with removing the carrier in HotS, I will stop playing Protoss and most likely stop playing Starcraft altogether. If Blizzard is seriously as short-sighted as you are in not seeing the various niches and metagame gaps that carrier play fills, I have absolutely no faith in them whatsoever to maintain a deeply intricate yet balanced gameplay dynamic. | ||
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i)awn
United States189 Posts
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
PvZ: Carrier is most used in this match up, a powerful unit lategame against broodlord compositions. Also used in skytoss builds mid game. PvP: Carrier used as a late game transition out of colossi wars. PvT: Used as a surprise build off 2 bases to deal damage and possibly end the game. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On August 22 2012 00:50 Adonminus wrote: I think this is the current state of the carrier: PvZ: Carrier is most used in this match up, a powerful unit lategame against broodlord compositions. Also used in skytoss builds mid game. PvP: Carrier used as a late game transition out of colossi wars. PvT: Used as a surprise build off 2 bases to deal damage and possibly end the game. Have you seen any games that support your statements about PvP or PvT? | ||
Shellshock
United States97277 Posts
On August 22 2012 04:26 Archerofaiur wrote: Have you seen any games that support your statements about PvP or PvT? Alicia beat Hero with carriers at MLG. MC 2 base carrier rushed Kas at IEM. I assume that's where he got these examples. | ||
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Walnut_SC
Canada33 Posts
Interview with David Kim. He said that THE CARRIER DECISION IS NOT FINAL!!! THERE IS STILL HOPE!!! | ||
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johnny123
521 Posts
On August 22 2012 04:30 Shellshock1122 wrote: Alicia beat Hero with carriers at MLG. MC 2 base carrier rushed Kas at IEM. I assume that's where he got these examples. brilliant, flash in the pan games used as evidence as to why units should stay in. You know , there was that one game where i got reapers late game and well, i killled alot of buildings. They are GOOD UNITS! . As i said before, i hope they keep both the carrier and the tempest in, but if they insist on removing, i hope the carrier is removed and not the tempest. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On August 22 2012 04:32 johnny123 wrote: brilliant, flash in the pan games used as evidence as to why units should stay in. Which is why im cataloging them. If you see any games where players lose going Carrier post them here too. As i said before, i hope they keep both the carrier and the tempest in, but if they insist on removing, i hope the carrier is removed and not the tempest. What do people feel happens to the Void Ray if the Tempest is added? | ||
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Shellshock
United States97277 Posts
On August 22 2012 04:32 johnny123 wrote: brilliant, flash in the pan games used as evidence as to why units should stay in. You know , there was that one game where i got reapers late game and well, i killled alot of buildings. They are GOOD UNITS! . As i said before, i hope they keep both the carrier and the tempest in, but if they insist on removing, i hope the carrier is removed and not the tempest. I was just providing examples where I believe he got the idea from. I never sided one way or the other. Obviously there needs to be a decent sample size of games before you can decide whether something works or not. 1 game is a start though. you could see more people experiment with the idea to see whether these strategies are truly viable or was it just luck they worked this one time because they caught their opponent off guard. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On August 22 2012 04:43 Archerofaiur wrote: Which is why im cataloging them. If you see any games where players lose going Carrier post them here too. What do people feel happens to the Void Ray if the Tempest is added? Well the Void Ray is terrible. Blizzard already stripped it's primary role over a year ago with the huge nerfs to charged damage, meaning that spending all that micro on them was no longer worth it. And then they stripped it's secondary role by removing the speed upgrade which made them decent lategame. Literally all it's used for now is to clear some creep tumors. They are easily deflected by queens/spores/marines/ a single viking. Void rays never even get to charge anymore! That right there should tell you that it's a failed unit. You would think that with all the focus Blizzard has put on toss air units for HotS, they would have realized the Void Ray is actually the dud of the stargate. Hopefully through all of this, they completely change the role of the void ray. Maybe make the Void Ray only hit ground targets, and increase the damage, so it actually scares off those roaches that are just killing your base anyway. Toss has way too many things that hit both ground and air. The reason why terran units are designed to be so powerful is because they are very specialized with what they do. Many toss units are much weaker for cost because they have versatile firing. However, the whole concept of the Void Ray charging up obviously did not work. So unless they can totally revamp the unit, I would rather see them take it out, keeping both the carrier and tempest. Then they can tweak the role of one of those two so they don't overlap. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On August 22 2012 06:06 SarcasmMonster wrote: At the very least, Blizz should have BOTH the Tempest and the Carrier in Beta, and let the community decide which one to keep after a few months of public play-testing. Is that really the best way? I don't believe it is. The community want to get what they already know. | ||
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
On August 22 2012 04:26 Archerofaiur wrote: Have you seen any games that support your statements about PvP or PvT? Watch MC vs Kas in IEM for the PvT. Mothership and carrier are common in PvP lategame, no need to give examples here. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 22 2012 04:32 johnny123 wrote: brilliant, flash in the pan games used as evidence as to why units should stay in. You know , there was that one game where i got reapers late game and well, i killled alot of buildings. They are GOOD UNITS! . As i said before, i hope they keep both the carrier and the tempest in, but if they insist on removing, i hope the carrier is removed and not the tempest. Notice how many games you've seen with BCs lately? Units being very niche and situational doesn't mean they should be removed. As long as Carriers are a good option in some scenarios, they should remain. As it currently stands, they have more practical uses than a BC. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On August 22 2012 06:18 Adonminus wrote: Watch MC vs Kas in IEM for the PvT. Mothership and carrier are common in PvP lategame, no need to give examples here. Actually I was aware of the MC Kas game. Can you provide links to PvP carrier games? I dont have any of those yet. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On August 22 2012 06:12 [F_]aths wrote: Is that really the best way? I don't believe it is. The community want to get what they already know. The only reason I suggested it is because I know the Carrier is going to win | ||
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