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On August 05 2012 12:03 Aetherial wrote:
After watching the OSL finals where Jangbi used carriers I'm convinced they need to keep and 'fix' the carrier in HotS... I hope they do.
Yes. I came to this thread to say the exact same thing. I really hope we have carriers in HotS, and not only that but I really hope they have some good use. As they are now they're almost comparable to BW Scouts in ultimate utility.
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WD Blizz for the Ninja Carrier change ! Carrier must stay ! :D
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On August 05 2012 01:45 Xitac wrote:
why would u fight for a boring a move unit of wich toss has certainly enough
Then they should remove the void ray instead. Carriers with BW micro is one of the most fun I ever had, I used to just play protoss campaign missions way longer than I needed to just by constantly pulling them back and focusing units, if you a-moved them they die, but if you manage them their effectiveness increased drastically and it felt awesome.
I'm glad for this new change, gonna test it before judging though. Last time I played with carriers it didn't feel any different. When I gave a move command, the interceptors still stopped attacking.
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Appreciate the link, mate!
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Does anyone know where to find the interview where Dustin Browder says its ok for the Mothership to remain even if it isnt used by the pros as long as its fun for casual players?
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Canada13401 Posts
Anyone know if there is a micro trick to launch the interceptors faster? Patrol, hold position, stop etc etc.
Edit: With graviton beam, if you move it a certain way do the interceptors stay out or something?
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On:August 11 2012 00:28 Netto. wrote:
I like carriers
Me too. Let's be friends. <3
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On August 11 2012 02:28 TaterT0ts wrote:Me too. Let's be friends. <3
Sure. For the carriers ; >
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On August 11 2012 00:25 ZeromuS wrote:
Anyone know if there is a micro trick to launch the interceptors faster? Patrol, hold position, stop etc etc.
Edit: With graviton beam, if you move it a certain way do the interceptors stay out or something?
That's what the graviton catapult upgrade does. Makes them launch on faster cooldown. Build time remains the same.
As for micro, all interceptors have the same target (the carrier's target). If the interceptors are already out, they can engage any target out to range 14. To acquire new targets or launch new interceptors, the carrier must be within range 8.
On August 11 2012 00:16 Archerofaiur wrote:
Does anyone know where to find the interview where Dustin Browder says its ok for the Mothership to remain even if it isnt used by the pros as long as its fun for casual players?
Mothership is still in HotS. Morphs from mothership core at fleet beacon tech like usual. Abilities are a bit different.
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On August 11 2012 14:39 HelioSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 00:16 Archerofaiur wrote:
Does anyone know where to find the interview where Dustin Browder says its ok for the Mothership to remain even if it isnt used by the pros as long as its fun for casual players? Mothership is still in HotS. Morphs from mothership core at fleet beacon tech like usual. Abilities are a bit different.
He wants the quote because he wants to throw it back into Browder's face by replacing "Mothership" with "Carrier".
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I honestly think its time to put the carrier to rest and allow a new tier 3 legacy to begin. Its a new game thats gonna have its own legends and epics let the carrier end happily with its godlike stature in bw and allow new more youthful units to take its place 
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On August 11 2012 14:53 Oaky wrote:I honestly think its time to put the carrier to rest and allow a new tier 3 legacy to begin. Its a new game thats gonna have its own legends and epics let the carrier end happily with its godlike stature in bw and allow new more youthful units to take its place
Its NOT a "new game" but rather a followup game which has a STORY connecting it to the first one - why else is it called Starcraft 2? Thus it is totally obvious that it isnt a game which is independant from the other one and since the Carrier is very prominent in the first one it needs to remain.
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3) The Carrier is perfect for Timmy, Power Gamer
According to Mark Rosewater, the lead designer of Magic the Gathering, there are three types of players: Timmy, Johnny and Spike. Johnny is the creative gamer and likes to discovering new ways to win. Spike is the competitive player and only cares about how far he advances in tournaments. And Timmy is the Power Gamer.
Imagine a kid goes into a game store. Let’s just call him… 'Timmy.' Now, Timmy doesn’t have a lot of money. So, he buys one pack of Bogavhati (Tempest’s codename). He rips it open and starts tearing through the cards to find the rare. And then he sees it. It’s a big green creature. Seven power. Seven toughness. It’s huge. Huge! He’s eyes keep moving. He glances up at the casting cost: blah, blah, blah. Boring. Move on. Timmy looks at the rules text. There’s a bunch of words. Timmy reads. Every turn Timmy gets another creature. Another entire creature. It’s small, but in ten turns, he’ll have twenty creatures. A 7/7 creature with twenty 1/1s. How does his opponent stop that? It can’t be stopped! Timmy finally exhales. He has found the Holy Grail.
Mark's example fits perfectly with the Carrier. It doesn't matter what it costs. Why? Because Timmy doesn't care about costs. Because its huge, its mammoth, its a face stomper. And if that wasn't enough it continually generates smaller creatures so Timmy can keep on stomping faces.
Timmy is what we in R&D call the "power gamer." Timmy likes to win big. He doesn’t want to eke out a last minute victory. Timmy wants to smash his opponents. He likes his cards to be impressive, and he enjoys playing big creatures and big spells.
I'd like to say there is a little Timmy in all of us. At one point or another everyone of us that played Starcraft 1 when we were young looked at the carrier and said. "You know I'm just gonna build like 20 of those and roll over my opponents, mumuMUWAHAHAHAHAHA!"
Timmy cares more about the quality of his win than the quantity of his wins. For example, Timmy sits down and plays ten games. He only wins three games out of ten but the three he wins, he dominates his opponent. Timmy had fun. Timmy walks away happy.
Not every casual gamer is a Timmy and not every Timmy is a casual gamer. But for the most part players start out as Timmy's and some move on to become Johnny's and Spike's. And that's really why its so important for Blizzard to remember Timmy and to keep the Carrier in the game. It helps players fall in love with the game when they are starting out. Sure its 4v4 and their in copper league but Timmy just won in the way he wanted to. And as a result hes going to see if he can do it next game, and maybe some day, silver league.
So has Blizzard really forgotten about Timmy? I don't think so. Back in when Starcraft 2 first came out Dustin Browder gave an interview where he was asked if the Mothership would be removed if no pro players used it. Dustin said that it was ok for Starcraft 2 to have one big, fun unit that casual players could use to win big with. Now that the Mothership has found its place in competitive play surely there must still be room for that one Timmy unit.
Source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b
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On August 12 2012 05:51 Archerofaiur wrote:
3) The Carrier is perfect for Timmy, Power Gamer
According to Mark Rosewater, the lead designer of Magic the Gathering, there are three types of players: Timmy, Johnny and Spike.
No, there aren't. According to Mark Rosewater, the lead designer of Magic: The Gathering, there are three types of player architypes that the designers of M:tG care about in terms of gameplay. There's a difference between what the M:tG design team considers and all of the possibilities that exists. Not even Maro has ever claimed that these are the only kinds of players who exist, and the M:tG team recognizes the subtle graduations between these architypes and among many others not covered by this model.
It's just a tool, not the inerrant, divinely-inspired word of the living God.
More to the point... who cares what "Timmy, Power Gamer" thinks? Timmy, Power Gamer doesn't play e-Sports, because Timmy, Power Gamer's lack of "win-at-all-costs" gamist mentality prevents him from doing what it takes to win.
Namely, not using units/cards that suck.
StarCraft should be designed and balanced around e-Sports, yes?
Even better, the Tempest fits Timmy, Power Gamer a lot more than the Carrier. It has big numbers: high damage and high range. It delivers a lot of damage from long range; that's right up Timmy, Power Gamer's alley.
Furthermore, the Carrier doesn't even work for Timmy, Power Gamer. It requires way too much finess to actually get the job done. The Colossus is far more rewarding in the things that matter for Timmy, Power Gamer: big damage, long range, high numbers, etc.
Timmy, Power Gamer is not on the side of the Carrier. He's far more in love with the Colossus than this flying thing that barely does any damage and always gets killed by Marines and Infestors.
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On August 12 2012 06:34 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 05:51 Archerofaiur wrote:
3) The Carrier is perfect for Timmy, Power Gamer
According to Mark Rosewater, the lead designer of Magic the Gathering, there are three types of players: Timmy, Johnny and Spike. No, there aren't. According to Mark Rosewater, the lead designer of Magic: The Gathering, there are three types of player architypes that the designers of M:tG care about in terms of gameplay. There's a difference between what the M:tG design team considers and all of the possibilities that exists. Not even Maro has ever claimed that these are the only kinds of players who exist, and the M:tG team recognizes the subtle graduations between these architypes and among many others not covered by this model. It's just a tool, not the inerrant, divinely-inspired word of the living God. More to the point... who cares what "Timmy, Power Gamer" thinks? Timmy, Power Gamer doesn't play e-Sports, because Timmy, Power Gamer's lack of "win-at-all-costs" gamist mentality prevents him from doing what it takes to win. Namely, not using units/cards that suck.
StarCraft should be designed and balanced around e-Sports, yes?Even better, the Tempest fits Timmy, Power Gamer a lot more than the Carrier. It has big numbers: high damage and high range. It delivers a lot of damage from long range; that's right up Timmy, Power Gamer's alley. Furthermore, the Carrier doesn't even work for Timmy, Power Gamer. It requires way too much finess to actually get the job done. The Colossus is far more rewarding in the things that matter for Timmy, Power Gamer: big damage, long range, high numbers, etc. Timmy, Power Gamer is not on the side of the Carrier. He's far more in love with the Colossus than this flying thing that barely does any damage and always gets killed by Marines and Infestors.
The bold part says absolutely nothing about getting rid of the Carrier. If the Carrier is a useless unit (which it isn't), there is still no harm whatsoever in keeping it in the game for casual players to use.
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On August 12 2012 06:34 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 05:51 Archerofaiur wrote:
3) The Carrier is perfect for Timmy, Power Gamer
According to Mark Rosewater, the lead designer of Magic the Gathering, there are three types of players: Timmy, Johnny and Spike. No, there aren't. According to Mark Rosewater, the lead designer of Magic: The Gathering, there are three types of player architypes that the designers of M:tG care about in terms of gameplay. There's a difference between what the M:tG design team considers and all of the possibilities that exists. Not even Maro has ever claimed that these are the only kinds of players who exist, and the M:tG team recognizes the subtle graduations between these architypes and among many others not covered by this model. It's just a tool, not the inerrant, divinely-inspired word of the living God.
Your absolutely right. They are a tool to help understand what types of players get out of the game. Who said it was the word of God?
More to the point... who cares what "Timmy, Power Gamer" thinks? Timmy, Power Gamer doesn't play e-Sports, because Timmy, Power Gamer's lack of "win-at-all-costs" gamist mentality prevents him from doing what it takes to win.
Namely, not using units/cards that suck.
StarCraft should be designed and balanced around e-Sports, yes?
Starcraft is first and foremost an Esport.. But that doesnt mean that Starcraft is only an Esport. Furthermore, units like the carrier help Timmy players get into the game and enjoy it. And some day these Timmy players may become pros but the important thing is that they enjoy playing Starcraft enough to keep playing it. Remember, we all were noobs once.
Even better, the Tempest fits Timmy, Power Gamer a lot more than the Carrier. It has big numbers: high damage and high range. It delivers a lot of damage from long range; that's right up Timmy, Power Gamer's alley.
Furthermore, the Carrier doesn't even work for Timmy, Power Gamer. It requires way too much finess to actually get the job done. The Colossus is far more rewarding in the things that matter for Timmy, Power Gamer: big damage, long range, high numbers, etc.
Timmy, Power Gamer is not on the side of the Carrier. He's far more in love with the Colossus than this flying thing that barely does any damage and always gets killed by Marines and Infestors.
Not sure I buy that  Tempest has the hit points and shields of a Timmy unit. But it lacks the pure DPS. Carrier has 26.7(+5.3) vs Tempest 8.17. Timmy doesn't want to sit back and ping his opponent to death. Timmy wants to smash through his enemies front lines. But your right the Carrier in its current state could use a buff. Most people in this thread would probably agree with that.
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On August 12 2012 23:13 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 06:34 NicolBolas wrote:On August 12 2012 05:51 Archerofaiur wrote:
3) The Carrier is perfect for Timmy, Power Gamer
According to Mark Rosewater, the lead designer of Magic the Gathering, there are three types of players: Timmy, Johnny and Spike. No, there aren't. According to Mark Rosewater, the lead designer of Magic: The Gathering, there are three types of player architypes that the designers of M:tG care about in terms of gameplay. There's a difference between what the M:tG design team considers and all of the possibilities that exists. Not even Maro has ever claimed that these are the only kinds of players who exist, and the M:tG team recognizes the subtle graduations between these architypes and among many others not covered by this model. It's just a tool, not the inerrant, divinely-inspired word of the living God. More to the point... who cares what "Timmy, Power Gamer" thinks? Timmy, Power Gamer doesn't play e-Sports, because Timmy, Power Gamer's lack of "win-at-all-costs" gamist mentality prevents him from doing what it takes to win. Namely, not using units/cards that suck.
StarCraft should be designed and balanced around e-Sports, yes?Even better, the Tempest fits Timmy, Power Gamer a lot more than the Carrier. It has big numbers: high damage and high range. It delivers a lot of damage from long range; that's right up Timmy, Power Gamer's alley. Furthermore, the Carrier doesn't even work for Timmy, Power Gamer. It requires way too much finess to actually get the job done. The Colossus is far more rewarding in the things that matter for Timmy, Power Gamer: big damage, long range, high numbers, etc. Timmy, Power Gamer is not on the side of the Carrier. He's far more in love with the Colossus than this flying thing that barely does any damage and always gets killed by Marines and Infestors. The bold part says absolutely nothing about getting rid of the Carrier. If the Carrier is a useless unit (which it isn't), there is still no harm whatsoever in keeping it in the game for casual players to use.
I didn't say it should be gotten rid of for that reason. I'm saying that this argument for keeping it is invalid for that reason. I'm arguing against the argument, not (necessarily) the position.
That being said, there is harm in keeping useless units around. You don't want a game with a bunch of "noob-trap" units in it. Think about how many SC1 players honestly think the Scout is a powerful if not devastating unit.
That's not a good thing.
On August 13 2012 02:29 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +More to the point... who cares what "Timmy, Power Gamer" thinks? Timmy, Power Gamer doesn't play e-Sports, because Timmy, Power Gamer's lack of "win-at-all-costs" gamist mentality prevents him from doing what it takes to win.
Namely, not using units/cards that suck.
StarCraft should be designed and balanced around e-Sports, yes? Starcraft is first and foremost an Esport.. But that doesnt mean that Starcraft is only an Esport. Furthermore, units like the carrier help Timmy players get into the game and enjoy it. And some day these Timmy players may become pros but the important thing is that they enjoy playing Starcraft enough to keep playing it. Remember, we all were noobs once.
The Colossus already is a Timmy unit. Why does the Protoss need two Timmy units?
On August 13 2012 02:29 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +Even better, the Tempest fits Timmy, Power Gamer a lot more than the Carrier. It has big numbers: high damage and high range. It delivers a lot of damage from long range; that's right up Timmy, Power Gamer's alley.
Furthermore, the Carrier doesn't even work for Timmy, Power Gamer. It requires way too much finess to actually get the job done. The Colossus is far more rewarding in the things that matter for Timmy, Power Gamer: big damage, long range, high numbers, etc.
Timmy, Power Gamer is not on the side of the Carrier. He's far more in love with the Colossus than this flying thing that barely does any damage and always gets killed by Marines and Infestors. Not sure I buy that Tempest has the hit points and shields of a Timmy unit. But it lacks the pure DPS. Carrier has 26.7(+5.3) vs Tempest 8.17. Timmy doesn't want to sit back and ping his opponent to death. Timmy wants to smash through his enemies front lines. But your right the Carrier in its current state could use a buff. Most people in this thread would probably agree with that.
Timmy doesn't care about DPS. Just like in M:tG, Timmy likes big numbers. So what if that dragon requires like 15 mana to get onto the field, or can only attack once every three turns. It does 20 damage, and that's enough to get Timmy to use it.
The Carrier has never been a "smash through his enemies front lines" unit. Even among noob players in SC1, you can't just a-move Carriers and expect to win. And in SC2 this is even less likely, with Vikings and Corruptors out there that can mop them up quickly.
My points are these: Timmy already has a unit: the Colossus. If you're going to make another Timmy unit, why does it need to be the Carrier? The Tempest is rather Timmy-like as is, due to its massive range.
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Maybe if they decide to fix it.
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EPT
