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As a noob, with no BW experience, I don't think I want the game to be harder.
Having automine / smartcast lowers the "bullshit tolerance" prerequisite of players AND makes the game more fun. So I can't understand why they would take it out.
Seriously though, adding macro difficulty just takes more apm / attention from things that are actually enjoyable, and are actually part of the game (i.e. strategy and execution). Macro isn't part of the game - it's just something you have to do - like getting a Battle.net account.
Also, anyone who says that just macro can take you to masters clearly hasn't had to try working their way up lately. You'll lose to anyone with a basic grasp of strategy / execution - and that's great, because it's a strategy game!
HOTS will have some cool new units and strategies. That's awesome. But I doubt that anyone (even pros) can actually say that they're doing everything they would like to at the moment.
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Increasing the skill cap will help separate the bonjwas from the champions. I see no harm in cranking up the difficulty, I'm all for it.
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yes the game should be harder...and no im not speaking about things that are in bw like 12 unit selection!
there must be other ways like new units, maps, strategies...
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I'd like to see them game be a bit harder. When I played BW it was so completely obvious how the players were 100x more talented and fast than I was. In SC2 a professional game doesn't look far and away different or higher level than a masters league game.
On the other hand, I think making the game harder would all but eliminate the chances of foreign players from winning major and international tournaments.
On January 23 2012 22:39 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
yes the game should be harder...and no im not speaking about things that are in bw like 12 unit selection!
there must be other ways like new units, maps, strategies...
To me the unlimited building/unit selection is the only real tangible difference from BW that makes the game so much easier (along with smartcasting/deathballs)
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For me, BW was boring to play, because I had to do way more than i could. 50 APM ftw!!!
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I would just like to be awarded when I have better mechanics and apm than my opponent. A prime example of this is TvP which is really unfair for one side when it comes to the multitasking and apm, you gotta drop, control that drop to snipe tech and save the dropship, at the same time control your army and not get owned by forcefields, micro from forcefields, kite chargelots, dodge storms, make bionic, make vikings/dropships, scvs, add depos and rax yeah you know how it goes. Even if you do all this the Protoss player can just roll over you. How often don't you get beaten in TvP by someone with like 80-120 apm that just sit and build things whole game while you have over 200 apm to just keep up with everything?
Thats why ZvT is such a great matchup because it's so fair on this part and the better player can actually punish you for having better mechanics. I don't know how this is in ZvP, is it like TvP or is it like TvZ?
User was warned for this post
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On January 23 2012 22:34 Facultyadjutant wrote:
[...]
Everyone have apm to burn, and everyone can do things betters. There are players who are dominating the scene like mvp's tvt or nesteas zvz, or polts zvp. However the problem people are losing is also that everyone is contending for first place. There are tons of incredible players in both code b, code a and code s.
[...]
Huh?
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The question isn't whether we should make StarCraft II harder to play. The question is whether or not it should be more fun to play. And right now, I can't think of any Blizzard strategy game other than Warcraft: Orcs and Humans that is less fun to play than StarCraft II. (Which is not to knock on StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty, which is a good real-time strategy game, but it's a firm notch below the best real-time strategy games ever made, a number of which were developed by Blizzard, a number developed by other companies.) As it stands right now, the the game only has a hand-me-down tournament scene to thank for its potential as a long-term competitive game and a figurehead for the genre.
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Honestly, I don't think that we have seen anyone reach the skill cap of the game yet. mvp, nestea, mc, drg, are all good, but they are not perfect. I think that if someone does start playing perfect, we will need to make the game more difficult in some way, although i'm not sure what one would define as "more difficult".
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I would love if smart-casting was removed.
Alas, this thread is largely pointless as I highly doubt Blizzard will ever make any basic mechanical changes to how SC2 works. Its a game where a large portion of the casual population find any sort of multiplayer play highly intimidating (ladder fear, overwhelmed by strategies, etc). Blizzard see these people shy away from playing and would want to make the game easier if anything. When they see LoL pulling in so much numbers due to its model of removing most of the "non-fun" (which dumb down the game and remove a lot of fun IMO) elements of DotA, being f2p and fairly easy to get into, they will undoubtedly be thinking on how to follow that model.
TL;DR - Blizzard will never implement any of the suggestions in this thread, like they never implemented 99% of the requests in Beta.
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On January 23 2012 22:47 Gosi wrote:
I would just like to be awarded when I have better mechanics and apm than my opponent. A prime example of this is TvP which is really unfair for one side when it comes to the multitasking and apm, you gotta drop, control that drop to snipe tech and save the dropship, at the same time control your army and not get owned by forcefields, micro from forcefields, kite chargelots, dodge storms, make bionic, make vikings/dropships, scvs, add depos and rax yeah you know how it goes. Even if you do all this the Protoss player can just roll over you. How often don't you get beaten in TvP by someone with like 80-120 apm that just sit and build things whole game while you have over 200 apm to just keep up with everything?
Thats why ZvT is such a great matchup because it's so fair on this part and the better player can actually punish you for having better mechanics. I don't know how this is in ZvP, is it like TvP or is it like TvZ?
this.
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Under that logic there must not be a skill cap in BW, last I checked Flash and Jaedong have rather retarded high w/l.
Same W/L ratio as MVP, so you can pick, either:
#1: Both games do not have a significant skill cap, in which case comparing SC2 to BW in terms of skill is pointless as they both have no skill cap high enough
#2: Both games have a significant skill cap, in which case this thread is pointless
#3: SC2 is so new we don't know whether or not there is a high skill cap as it has not been close to reached yet, therefore this thread is pointless and pure speculation
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The Game was harder back then, because RTS games were quite young back then. Today RTS-Genre has developed alot and a game, thats how blizz designs a game: On the current standards.
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On January 23 2012 21:11 Blazinghand wrote:
The hardness of the game is all that matters to me.
Yes, oh, yes.... I want this game to be hard. All I want to be able to feel its hardness. I wish to sense it as I grasp my mouse and feel its sinewy cord and its coarse texture pads. I need to know it's hard as I gently brush my fingertips across my slick black keyboard. I yearn to press against the hardness of the high skill ceiling as I ladder. I love to feel it pushing me down. I need to feel the hardness inside me as I become hard like the game, as it hardens me and makes me a better gamer. I want to feel the hardness pound away at me and make me gosu.
I like it hard.
This post did in fact make my day! :L
I thinks it's good where it is. Stopping auto mine and reverting back to the 12 units per hotkey would be stupid and although that has made the game easier, I think it was needed to keep the game moving with the times.
Its also very easy to compare a game that has had a very short stay in the esports spotlight with a game such as BW which has had a ten year tenure in the scene and has had so much time to mature.
Saying all this, more micro intensive units would be cool as I actually have a lot of fun when micro'ing :D
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On January 23 2012 22:47 Gosi wrote:
I would just like to be awarded when I have better mechanics and apm than my opponent. A prime example of this is TvP which is really unfair for one side when it comes to the multitasking and apm, you gotta drop, control that drop to snipe tech and save the dropship, at the same time control your army and not get owned by forcefields, micro from forcefields, kite chargelots, dodge storms, make bionic, make vikings/dropships, scvs, add depos and rax yeah you know how it goes. Even if you do all this the Protoss player can just roll over you. How often don't you get beaten in TvP by someone with like 80-120 apm that just sit and build things whole game while you have over 200 apm to just keep up with everything?
Thats why ZvT is such a great matchup because it's so fair on this part and the better player can actually punish you for having better mechanics. I don't know how this is in ZvP, is it like TvP or is it like TvZ?
I can totally relate to this. That's why I do mostly 1-1-1. But then again when I stop to think about it, where is the fun? Doing the same allin everytime gets really boring. The problem is I get frustrated either way, losing to a lesser player or allining everytime. Hopefully they'll make mech viable in TvP in HOTS and this won't be an issue anymore.
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On January 23 2012 22:57 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +Under that logic there must not be a skill cap in BW, last I checked Flash and Jaedong have rather retarded high w/l. Same W/L ratio as MVP, so you can pick, either: #1: Both games do not have a significant skill cap, in which case comparing SC2 to BW in terms of skill is pointless as they both have no skill cap high enough #2: Both games have a significant skill cap, in which case this thread is pointless #3: SC2 is so new we don't know whether or not there is a high skill cap as it has not been close to reached yet, therefore this thread is pointless and pure speculation
Are you serious ?
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The system changes including unlimited unit selection, MBS, auto-mining, unit pathing, custom hotkeys, etc.; are completely 100% fine and make sense for the game. However SC2 sort of failed in its unit creation for the races and unit-vs-unit counter logic which ruins the utility of units and creates units with 1a syndrome(maruader, roach, colossus, etc) and leaves certain unit roles very limited(raven, viking, carrier, etc).
I think the future of the game depends on how Blizzard handles its new units and the current units. From the looks of the new units they understand that.
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On January 23 2012 22:47 Gosi wrote:
I would just like to be awarded when I have better mechanics and apm than my opponent. A prime example of this is TvP which is really unfair for one side when it comes to the multitasking and apm, you gotta drop, control that drop to snipe tech and save the dropship, at the same time control your army and not get owned by forcefields, micro from forcefields, kite chargelots, dodge storms, make bionic, make vikings/dropships, scvs, add depos and rax yeah you know how it goes. Even if you do all this the Protoss player can just roll over you. How often don't you get beaten in TvP by someone with like 80-120 apm that just sit and build things whole game while you have over 200 apm to just keep up with everything?
Thats why ZvT is such a great matchup because it's so fair on this part and the better player can actually punish you for having better mechanics. I don't know how this is in ZvP, is it like TvP or is it like TvZ?
Altought I'd like to be awarded for having better mechanics as well, I feel the exact opposite in PvT. Maybe that's because I play toss but it looks to me like it's so much easier for T... just press T and kite = win. When the storm comes, keep kiting... it's not like the HT will ever catch up with stimmed MM anyways... now for the P player there's a lot to do... first of all u need to keep ur zealots in front of ur army, which is a pain in itself seeing that the friggin melee meatshield of the army is slower than pretty much everything else (bring speedlots back plz blizz). You also need to worry about position 100% of the time seeing that FFs are much weaker in the open field. Also you need to babysit the HT so they dont get behind/die/get emp... looks like a lot of shit to me. Dropping is not that hard as well, seriously.
Regarding the macro aspect: it's not like we dont have to build structures and stuff right? And chronoboost.
User was warned for this post
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On January 23 2012 23:02 Scarbo wrote:
Altought I'd like to be awarded for having better mechanics as well, I feel the exact opposite in PvT. Maybe that's because I play toss but it looks to me like it's so much easier for T... just press T and kite = win. When the storm comes, keep kiting... it's not like the HT will ever catch up with stimmed MM anyways... now for the P player there's a lot to do... first of all u need to keep ur zealots in front of ur army, which is a pain in itself seeing that the friggin melee meatshield of the army is slower than pretty much everything else (bring speedlots back plz blizz). You also need to worry about position 100% of the time seeing that FFs are much weaker in the open field. Also you need to babysit the HT so they dont get behind/die/get emp... looks like a lot of shit to me. Dropping is not that hard as well, seriously.
Regarding the macro aspect: it's not like we dont have to build structures and stuff right? And chronoboost.
Gave me a good laugh. protoss is so hard i have to like keep my zealots in front of my army and a move, so much harder than the 30 actions kiting requires the other 10 or so droppin. come on if your gonna make an argument make it plausible
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EPT
