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Do We Want the Game Harder? - Page 6
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Scarbo
294 Posts
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
You could make some argument that the skill cap in SC2 was lower and that the game was too easy if people weren't constantly making mistakes. But you'll hear Tastosis, in every game, for every player, mention more than a handful of instances where Player X should have done this instead of that, or if he hadn't made that fatal blunder he would have won the game. Until players are playing perfectly (they're not), I don't think you can argue that the skill cap is too low. Think about it. With MBS, Smart-casting, larger unit-selection hotkeys, etc. what are these players spending their 200+ APM on? Is it spam? Well no wonder they're still making critical mistakes. Theoretically (I say theoretically because I don't think anyone is doing this yet), if the best of the best aren't tied up using half of their actions just to keep their base running and their units together and behaving like they want them to, they should have many more resources available to perform sick Marine splits, stagger units against Colossi, drop in 3 places at once, etc. etc.. Why don't we see it, then, except from the best of players? The game is still young. Until you see MVP play perfectly and lose to some no-name B-teamer, you can't say that skill doesn't matter. And until players make a LOT less mistakes than they currently are, you can't say that the skill cap is too low. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
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HarryKC
Croatia58 Posts
So why do people think they can talk about complexity of another, much younger game, which still has 2 expansions to be released? Sure, the game seems easier now, but maybe, in 10 years, when strategies evolve and players get more skilled, it will turn out that SC2: LoV is a much more complex game than SC:BW... Maybe not regarding mechanics, but maybe in some other aspect. Do not quickly assume that complex, noob-unfriendly mechanics are necessary for a complex and difficult game - it is a very non-trivial question which, I think, in case of SC2, only time will answer (I'm guessing maybe 2 or 3 years from now). SC2 is not BW, it is a very young game which grows in complexity and will continue to do so. And it grows very quickly, much more quickly than BW grew when it was less than 2 years old... Remember SC2 Beta and how ridiculous strategies were back then? That was less than 2 years ago... Just enjoy the relatively simplistic childhood of this wonderful game and watch it grow into a worthy successor of BW... | ||
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xXFireandIceXx
Canada4296 Posts
On January 23 2012 23:22 HarryKC wrote: Most people compare the current state of BW with the current state of SC2. This is very unfair: keep in mind that SC2 is less than 2 years old, and BW is about 13 years old. Just remember the state of BW back in 2000... Most people back then weren't even using hotkeys, and nobody was even remotely aware how complex the game will be and how skillful BW pros will be a decade later. So why do people think they can talk about complexity of another, much younger game, which still has 2 expansions to be released? Sure, the game seems easier now, but maybe, in 10 years, when strategies evolve and players get more skilled, it will turn out that SC2: LoV is a much more complex game than SC:BW... Maybe not regarding mechanics, but maybe in some other aspect. Do not quickly assume that complex, noob-unfriendly mechanics are necessary for a complex and difficult game - it is a very non-trivial question which, I think, in case of SC2, only time will answer. SC2 is not BW, it is a very young game which grows in complexity and will continue to do so. And it grows very quickly, much more quickly than BW grew when it was less than 2 years old... Remember SC2 Beta and how ridiculous strategies were back then? That was less than 2 years ago... Just enjoy the relatively simplistic childhood of this wonderful game and watch it grow into a worthy successor of BW... I got nothing against the game except for some of the units. To be honest, BW demanded a sense of subtlety that's so hard to find with SC2. It seems to be just about that perfect unit comp. I don't get a sense of minute detail and precision that can radically change the way the game is played. I'm nervous for HOTS mostly because of the new units they want to introduce, that does some cool stuff, but is just that, flashy. | ||
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Klonere
Ireland4123 Posts
On January 23 2012 23:26 xXFireandIceXx wrote: I got nothing against the game except for some of the units. To be honest, BW demanded a sense of subtlety that's so hard to find with SC2. It seems to be just about that perfect unit comp. I don't get a sense of minute detail and precision that can radically change the way the game is played. I'm nervous for HOTS mostly because of the new units they want to introduce, that does some cool stuff, but is just that, flashy. That subtly to each of the units is something I would wager is almost impossible to reproduce unless you were doing a straight up remake of SC:BW T_T | ||
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jupiter6
205 Posts
On January 23 2012 23:08 Scarbo wrote: omg kiting is so hard lol... ur making me laugh sir definitely harder than 1a while playing toss User was warned for this post | ||
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HarryKC
Croatia58 Posts
On January 23 2012 23:26 xXFireandIceXx wrote: I got nothing against the game except for some of the units. To be honest, BW demanded a sense of subtlety that's so hard to find with SC2. It seems to be just about that perfect unit comp. I don't get a sense of minute detail and precision that can radically change the way the game is played. I'm nervous for HOTS mostly because of the new units they want to introduce, that does some cool stuff, but is just that, flashy. Remember how crappy mech felt back in BW before people realised they can micro vultures? There was a time nobody used vultures and, a few years later, a time when almost every terran used them. What makes you think we know our SC2 units so well we can say there is no subtlety? I think it is reasonable to assume that the best code s pros today would get completely owned by an average ladder player from 2015. | ||
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Joseph123
Bulgaria1144 Posts
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
I'm too upset to take the OP seriously. | ||
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TheWorldToCome
United States452 Posts
Would be fun to see if it felt like it made a HUGE difference. I'm sure it wouldnt be too hard to make this custom game. | ||
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Leetley
1796 Posts
On January 23 2012 23:20 Yorbon wrote: When I look at code s, I realise the skill ceiling hasn't been reached. There won't ever be a point where some player achieves the near perfect skill to pla the game. Sure at some point there is possible play the game at seemingly perfect level, but there is always room for improvement. | ||
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erazerr
Australia86 Posts
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sudzy
United States58 Posts
I would think that there would be a way to both keep the ease of entry we have with SC2 and increase the skill cap (which has not been touched yet imo). I think that smart casting, MBS, auto-mining etc. are no brainers today. No one would play the game without these except pros and masochists. Still, there should be units/abilities that when used at the highest level reward the player who does have the multi-tasking ability to use them correctly. | ||
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turnip
United States193 Posts
Then again, I still haven't seen any player play SC2 as well as I've seen jaedong play BW, a much more awkward and mechanically demanding game. Once BW pros start playing this may become a more obviously valid point. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Perhaps increase the skill ceilling, but don't increase the skillcap to enjoy the game. You're just gonna discourage more people to play our game, and they will go play something else. | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
I personally would like to see adjusted options to choose from, otherwise the only possible outcome will obviously be "yes it should get harder" more or less (people who find it too hard will have to choose "It should stay at around the same level"). Apart from that I think most experienced players and especially pro's will always be in fond od adding more depth and possibilities into the game so they can outplay their opponent more easily if the skillgap is there as well as reducing the so-called "luck-factor" (bo losses for instance). However, I firmly believe that playing success in a good rts game should not be based on "can i box my units quickly enough often enough because there is a stupid 12 units maximum unit selection" but rather enhanced possibilities to micro for instance. Applying bonus dmg to certain units makes focus fire more important, charging up units like voids, microing the special aoe format of hellions ... the more unique units and their abilities become the more an experienced player with good mechanics and control can perform. I think most people would prefer watching a high level korean micro hiss ass off with 300+average apm by for example microing 20 hellions at the same time and getting always perfect aoe volleys of by positioning them correctly instead of watching them using their 300apm to box 100 lings to amove around. What is so exciting about useless clicks? That's at least the way I understood the OP, because SC2 provides easier game mechanics. All those extra clicks in SC:BW did however add nothing at all to strategy or game knowledge. Awsome micro can be done without not being able to select more than 12 units at a time or being able to hotkey different buildings together or ralleying your workers to mineral patches for auto mining. | ||
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EternaLLegacy
United States410 Posts
If this game is not easy, then why don't some of you guys in GM/top masters come play some BW for a while. Clearly it shouldn't be that hard, because the game is just as hard, right? | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
The main concern with sc2 is that good players lose to randoms, I just say the metagame hasn't stabilized and there is no build (yet) which is decent/good against everything which causes coinflip losses. It's a metagame issue. On January 23 2012 21:12 DeepBlu2 wrote: Adding things like automine and smartcast significantly lower the skillcap, yet don't make the game more fun, so I can't understand why they would add it. Yeah, because putting EVERY probe you make on minerals and clicking on every building you have to make one unit is SO much more fun. Automine and MBS is fun because it removes focus from stupid artificial over-the-top mechanical barriers to become decent and enjoy the game but to become good, there are still many strategial and tactical things you have to learn. Also mechanically, this game still isn't easy. Come back when you don't do any macro mistakes and I'll admit youre right. On January 23 2012 23:50 EternaLLegacy wrote: I'll tell you what. If this game is not easy, then why don't some of you guys in GM/top masters come play some BW for a while. Clearly it shouldn't be that hard, because the game is just as hard, right? BW being hard doesn't suddenly make SC2 easy. Learn to logic bro. | ||
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